Near Death Experiences

[tonyrey]

I thought my position was clear on that.

I made reference in previous posts elsewhere to the fact I dont think nature knows we’re here, nor does it care.

The nature of the cosmos may or may not be eternal, (continuously expanding and contracting) but nature, as in encompassing all life and non life on earth is most certainly not eternal. We already know the sun is dying, so in 5 billion years give or take a day or two, the earth, and everything on it, will no longer exist.

Sarah x

You take it for granted that the material universe is the sole reality. Yet the universe doesn’t know we exist but we know the universe exists! (Pascal)

I think you underrate the power of the mind…

 

[atheistgirl]

I think you underrate the power of the mind…

Naw… not really … some of the workings of some minds I’ve been exposed to could hardly be under-rated further

Sarah x

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Thanks for your thoughts. You’re right - it was some time ago - 11th January 1979 to be exact. I still remember the terrifying scream at the end, and some of the things we said. And as a rule, I don’t remember dreams. I’m afraid I didn’t miss him much, and I still don’t - he was very cruel, and he admitted that night he had deliberately set out to destroy my confidence.

All experiences are “real to (you)”, since the only way we can experience them is through our senses. Therefore any experience, mundane or unique, is still filtered through our personal perceptions. As far as I’m concerned, the experience was “real”, full stop, just as “real” as eating your next breakfast will be to you.

I appreciate your human sentiments, which is also the reason most Christians don’t like to talk about Hell too much - we don’t like the thought there is a place of eternal torment, far worse than any concentration camp or prison. I’ve had other Catholics on this site try to tell me he’s in Purgatory, not in Hell etc, and the reason is that they’re human.

But you didn’t see the scream. It was absolute terror, pure and simple. And he was trying ward something off.

With all due respect, I think that when Mr. Hitchens went to his judgment, he would have found out that his objections were nowhere near as honest as he thought they were.

For a start he’d have to reconcile to the supreme being how he explained the origin of the universe, the rise of life, the influence of the Jews, the reality of the Church, the fact the universe has to be very finely tuned to support life in the first place, the fact it is a “sum zero energy” universe, the fact we are beings who like things in “our own image” eg. anthromorphic robots (I wonder where that comes from), that we have a seven day week and attempts to fool with that haven’t worked, that we are a trinity (body, mind, soul / father, mother, child), that we know right from wrong, that the genetic code is inormation, and information requires a designer, that there is good and evil, that there is beauty even in the most mundane things. But he ignored all that.

And there is also the fact that if there is no God, we can do what we like. I wonder how many of us engage in wishful thinking on that account, and just hope we’re going to get away with it? My father did, and he found out he was wrong, when it was too late. His years of deliberate cruelty had been seen, and he had to account for it.

Yes. I think he did a surprise. He’d have found out he’s spent an entire life time pursuing a lie. I think that would have been the most galling part to him.

( re entries in this matter throughout thread)

Because you speak in such a cavalier manner with respects to the inferred consequence of another human being, together with manner of recollection, personality traits, guilt and persecution implications hugely evident I might add,…

I simply do not believe one word you have uttered is factually true, reasonably authentic, and without question in my mind delusional. In review and opinion this appears more than likely a developed and created consequence of a dream, or fearfully other…Much less… a family relative regardless of a life which everyone attempts to do their best , regardless . Once you can try to understand this there may be hope for forgiveness and a normal, stable foundation for general good will and charity .

This is such a callous regard for another’s soul. The human mind can be anti-self in refusing
to understand that no one can fully appreciate the difficulties another experiences… I am simply over whelmed with this…tough luck Charlie attitude …what a world

 

[FurtherSuntime]

NDE is not a representation of the here after…it is a bridge like all other experience . Otherwise you must deny the happening. Experience=Bridge. That is the purpose of experience. Therefore while we cannot jump to conclusions with the here after idea, we can know that NDE in fact represents a bridge, justified by the experience itself.

The evidence is suggesting in virtually all, further experience is in store. It could be at least then
recognized that the bridge is no where near suggesting the inner self is about to be extinguished. It is a very positive sign

 

[JDaniel]

Hi Fran,

You can relax … you’re totally wrong I live every moment in awe and wonder at the world around us. From thinking about how a few tiny cells can lead to my beautiful, intelligent children to watching an awe-inspiring sunset, to the power of a huge electrical story, and the gentleness of a fox playing with her cubs, to watching the moons orbit Jupiter on a clear starry night. Every second I breath I appreciate the wonders of everything from the cell to the stellar. It’s all natural to me though - I see it all as part of nature, not created by or directed by anything outside of nature.

Sarah:

So this thing that man made up and postulated that is called, “nature,” although it is nothing more than a kind of colloquialism that expresses a universal collective (since otherwise, we’d have to create an avatar, by naming a number of things, followed by commas, then several dots, followed by an italicized “n” inside of a square box [kind of like a Cantorian infinite set]) ratiocinates, creates and controls? In other words, the totality of things finds a mind (of some sort) and conspires to make stuff happen? I’m having a very tough time with that. So, may I politely ask, “How?”

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

In other words, the totality of things finds a mind (of some sort) and conspires to make stuff happen?

There is no ‘‘mind’’ conspiring to make anything happen in my view.

Just look at the amount of mass extinctions the earth has endured.

Apart form these, there is a concensous among experts that something in the region of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived, are extinct.

That alone should tell us there is no ‘‘mind’’ controlling anything!

Sarah x

 

[buffalo]

There is no ‘‘mind’’ conspiring to make anything happen in my view.

Just look at the amount of mass extinctions the earth has endured.

Apart form these, there is a concensous among experts that something in the region of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived, are extinct.

That alone should tell us there is no ‘‘mind’’ controlling anything!

Sarah x

It is very consistent with the results of the fall.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

There is no ‘‘mind’’ conspiring to make anything happen in my view.

Just look at the amount of mass extinctions the earth has endured.

Apart form these, there is a concensous among experts that something in the region of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived, are extinct.

That alone should tell us there is no ‘‘mind’’ controlling anything!

Sarah x

Good points but not good enough for FS: :nope:

It might be more true in perspective to equate a God figure relative to our present human perimeter as it would be the emerging source of understanding… A God would be closer to …An Event …in relation to mans thinking powers and disposition to be sure.
Therefore things like …control… are not really applicable, are they? How could a God loose control, is that what you are suggesting? Because it would imply same.

Of course humanity is on a road toward extinction, its part of playing the biological game.
In fact I believe extinction is for ever in motion as all life evolves and would be subject to all properties of life.

Ever have trouble relating with someone? Consciousness will evolve and eventually outfit itself with a further appropriate attire. Its too bad we don’t call ourselves consciousness in order to avoid becoming extinct and grow only by quality in consciousness which as we know cannot become extinct, only further advanced. …( save the virus ect)…(……)

The forward direction in opinion has not to do with natural intelligence but the ability to organize experience and information properly including ready and fair access…in the human brain.

As operations in the brain improve, awareness will advance, eventually resulting in a new look.
All the while simultaneously leaving some of the old look still kicking around for a short period.

Things happen very slowly and are not noticeable in a given life…or are they?.. I wonder about that sometimes

Anyway…I find these Morris Code style chatting screens a drag…had a little time here…

Maybe theres something more exciting in other threads, so I’ll have a look around

You made some good points…your probably evolving more comfortably with the open mind: … God…Event

 

[tonyrey]

There is no ‘‘mind’’ conspiring to make anything happen in my view.

Just look at the amount of mass extinctions the earth has endured.

Apart form these, there is a consensus among experts that something in the region of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived, are extinct.

That alone should tell us there is no ‘‘mind’’ controlling anything!

1. The fact that life has survived so long** in spite of overwhelming odds **points to the opposite conclusion.
2. Stephen Hawking pointed out recently that it is unlikely that intelligent life survives for any length of time on planets because intelligence is a handicap rather than an asset for survival.
3. Monocellular organisms have outlasted more advanced forms by billions of years.
4. There is no scientific reason why life need exist at all.
5. There is even less scientific reason why life should have become so complex, efficient, specialised, conscious and autonomous.
6. The fact that many forms of life have become extinct does not detract from its value. Otherwise you are implicitly demanding that all forms of life should be immortal to have any value!
7. The element of chance functions within the framework of order and Design.
8. It is absurd to expect everything to go exactly according to plan in an immensely complex universe where billions of individuals are pursuing different goals.
9. It is also absurd to expect no misfortunes to occur in an immensely complex universe with physical laws that cannot cater for every possible contingency.
10. We certainly cannot expect to have everything for nothing…

“When one ponders on the teleonomic performances of living beings from bacteria to man one may well find oneself beginning to doubt again whether all this could conceivably be the product of **an enormous lottery **presided over by natural selection blindly picking the rare winners from among numbers drawn at random.” - Jacques Monod in his book “Chance and Necessity”

This passage was written by an atheist and Nobel laureate in biology…

 

[Bob_Crowley]

( re entries in this matter throughout thread)

Because you speak in such a cavalier manner with respects to the inferred consequence of another human being, together with manner of recollection, personality traits, guilt and persecution implications hugely evident I might add,…

I simply do not believe one word you have uttered is factually true, reasonably authentic, and without question in my mind delusional. In review and opinion this appears more than likely a developed and created consequence of a dream, or fearfully other…Much less… a family relative regardless of a life which everyone attempts to do their best , regardless . Once you can try to understand this there may be hope for forgiveness and a normal, stable foundation for general good will and charity .

This is such a callous regard for another’s soul. The human mind can be anti-self in refusing
to understand that no one can fully appreciate the difficulties another experiences… I am simply over whelmed with this…tough luck Charlie attitude …what a world

With all due respect, I meant every word I wrote.

And if church teaching is correct, I fail to see any other option for my father than condemnation.

Likewise Mr. Hitchens, unless he made a death bed confession.

Otherwise all the warnings about judgement, hell, eternity etc. by Christ himself and His Church are so much hot air.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

( re entries in this matter throughout thread)

Because you speak in such a cavalier manner with respects to the inferred consequence of another human being, together with manner of recollection, personality traits, guilt and persecution implications hugely evident I might add,…

I simply do not believe one word you have uttered is factually true, reasonably authentic, and without question in my mind delusional. In review and opinion this appears more than likely a developed and created consequence of a dream, or fearfully other…Much less… a family relative regardless of a life which everyone attempts to do their best , regardless . Once you can try to understand this there may be hope for forgiveness and a normal, stable foundation for general good will and charity .

This is such a callous regard for another’s soul. The human mind can be anti-self in refusing
to understand that no one can fully appreciate the difficulties another experiences… I am simply over whelmed with this…tough luck Charlie attitude …what a world

And I might add, I know my own mind, thank you. Calling me “delusional” is in fact arrogance on your part, even if you don’t think it is. You don’t even know me.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

::Alright …I will follow & translate the experience from what has been explained onto my mind .

1)The first thing that I would understand if I believed that the experience was in fact an representation of reality, is that the relay was allowed by God.

1. Since it was within Gods will to allow me to witness a horror described as explained in the scream, I would know due to the extraordinary and rare occurrence that there is a reaction which God himself was allowing me to experience which involved the deceased…
2. We know, or I would know that the reaction which God is allowing would not be without reason.
3. Now we have a clear understanding that for a specific Divine reason, God permitted a very unusual experience involving a known deceased soul which requires a reaction.
4. There is no known quality in Divine aspiration which involves human association and is
   void of charity.
5. Logically I would come to understand that there is something which God himself is interested in, with respects to my association with the deceased which involves caring for another in heartfelt genuine feeling which I well know is the fundamental of virtue charity.
6. The next item I would consider is the nature of the communication. With ease and quickly the answer is very clear. The nature of the communication is a plead. Otherwise it simply would not of happened to myself. I would be comfortable with this portion of evaluation.
7. Now I would list the important ingredients of the experience, notice I am detaching my self
   emotions from this investigation for true meaning.

a) God is allowing me to witness a plead from another in a grave disposition.
b) The nature of the communication is that of a plead.
c) The only reaction that God would be pleased with is that of genuine care, sympathy, charity
d) The only way I can please God in relation to this plead is with prayer.for the deceased.
e) Genuine prayer on behalf of the sick & deceased I know… has great integrity in not only the recognition of God but as well as the goodness of virtue charity.

1. The next item I would look at is the direction offered by my Belief System. We know prayers for the dead as well prayers for un-fortunate souls are a very important part of the Belief.
2. We also know from the inspiring message of Our Lady of Fatima that “God wishes man to pray for the many souls who do not have anyone to pray for them . God wants to save all the souls in hell” These are exact words of apparition 4 I think.

Any alternate translation for myself would be interfering with something which could only demonstrate a self need with no fruitfull outcome. There is no fruitful outcome in the indifference of plead from another. I think I will follow the words of Our Lady… There may be no one else who’s prayer have as much power I may consider, as a third virtuous reality is required and as well serves to my best interests in being humble of heart.

Of course I would be thinking about the power of forgiveness in above . Until a formal genuine effort to fully follow the Divine lead was accomplished I would not feel right, as though I’m denying something which I fully expect myself one final day…forgiveness. How can this God forgive me a mere mortal I would think, if I can’t see way way clear to this plead?

This would be my thinking if the experience was felt to be authentic…Thats why I find it hard to believe…the depth of something like this would wash out the insignificant human frailties of judging others . There would be no comfort in relay …unless there was an inspiring end to this encounter…which there is not. Not yet anyway…

.I’m not judging anything I’m simply commenting on a story which is being told . As you say…I do not know you…If it were myself…I’d loose the ego and follow the hopeful plans set out by the Belief and look forward to knowing I did the best I could. Sometimes things like these are returned with gratitude, so…it may not be over…as you may think ( if true)

I wrote quickly so forgive any grammar ect…its important to not.conspire what you write with respects to human issues …So above is basically composed as it came to mind…no re check and good luck…no doubt about it:thumbsup:
This is only opinion of course …it is also a public forum and I think you are entitled to opinion which you can then examine in your own time in order to feel confdident in what ever reason which…compelled you to share the private story…have a wondeful Christmas to be most sure:thumbsup:

 

[Jim_Dandy]

**Originally Posted by Jim Dandy **

Is Pam Atwater from England? A similar case occurred in Arizona, USA, involving a doctor who was my surgeon, but I don’t know the woman’s name.

Hi Jim,

Yes it is the same woman. An astonishing case I agree.

Fran

Hello, Fran! You may know that the doctor is world-class neurosurgeon Robert F. Spetzler, M.D. of Phoenix. I’m curious to know how you, in England, learned of the case. I’m certainly glad you did!

 

[Fran65]

**Originally Posted by Jim Dandy **
Hello, Fran! You may know that the doctor is world-class neurosurgeon Robert F. Spetzler, M.D. of Phoenix. I’m curious to know how you, in England, learned of the case. I’m certainly glad you did!

Hi Jim,

Her case is well documented in a couple of books that I have read - Science and the Near Death Experience by Chris Carter; Evidence of the Afterlife by David Fontana and Pam Atwater’s own book - The Big Book of Near Death Experiences. It is a truly stunning case that can be life changing I think for those who read or hear about it.

Happy Christmas

Fran

 

[damian_clarke]

The NDE’s that I have read about concure very much with what we Catholics believe about life after death. If we turn from the love of Christ we end up in a cold hatefulplace where we all abuse and hurt each other this I presume is Hell. If we turn to the presence of love the experience is one of happiness and warmth.
I think there is a ot of truth in these NDE’s

 

[Fran65]

There is no ‘‘mind’’ conspiring to make anything happen in my view.

Just look at the amount of mass extinctions the earth has endured.

Apart form these, there is a concensous among experts that something in the region of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived, are extinct.

That alone should tell us there is no ‘‘mind’’ controlling anything!

Logically there is no reason why the occurrence of extinctions of species leads to a conclusion of there being no God.

The mind of God is so far above our own minds that we cannot hope to grasp His ways. It is not the case that He controls everything in the Universe including the individual deaths and mass extinctions on our own planet much as a chess player controls the pieces; but nor is it the case that He set the Universe running and is now a disinterested observer who plays no further part in Earthly events. How, when and where He intervenes is truly a mystery, but it is a fact the He is active in the world today. What C.S. Lewis calls ‘The Problem of Pain’ will be with us as long as the human race exists on Earth however as it is also a fact that as I suggested earlier our minds are feeble when trying to make sense of suffering in the context of God’s existence.

My colleague’s 15 year old daughter collapsed and died suddenly last week. I don’t know why that happened, it makes no sense and has caused terrible suffering. However I know that God is with them in the actions of those caring for them and praying for them. I also know that faith - another gift from God - is a real comfort to the bereaved.

One NDEr said that what she realised as a result of her NDE is that we are here to grow in love and to grow in knowledge. Those impulses I attribute to the action of God although I have a very clear understanding of the evolutionary explanations for those behaviours which many accept. These however I reject as post hoc rationalisations of what is evident around us.

God Bless and Happy Christmas to you and your family

Fran

 

[tonyrey]

Logically there is no reason why the occurrence of extinctions of species leads to a conclusion of there being no God.

The mind of God is so far above our own minds that we cannot hope to grasp His ways. It is not the case that He controls everything in the Universe including the individual deaths and mass extinctions on our own planet much as a chess player controls the pieces; but nor is it the case that He set the Universe running and is now a disinterested observer who plays no further part in Earthly events. How, when and where He intervenes is truly a mystery, but it is a fact the He is active in the world today. What C.S. Lewis calls ‘The Problem of Pain’ will be with us as long as the human race exists on Earth however as it is also a fact that as I suggested earlier our minds are feeble when trying to make sense of suffering in the context of God’s existence.

My colleague’s 15 year old daughter collapsed and died suddenly last week. I don’t know why that happened, it makes no sense and has caused terrible suffering. However I know that God is with them in the actions of those caring for them and praying for them. I also know that faith - another gift from God - is a real comfort to the bereaved.

One NDEr said that what she realised as a result of her NDE is that we are here to grow in love and to grow in knowledge. Those impulses I attribute to the action of God although I have a very clear understanding of the evolutionary explanations for those behaviours which many accept. These however I reject as post hoc rationalisations of what is evident around us.

God Bless and Happy Christmas to you and your family

Fran

By His own death Jesus has revealed that such apparently pointless deaths can be transformed into a source of joy and consolation. They are due to natural causes without which life would not exist…

 

[Bob_Crowley]

::

1. Since it was within Gods will to allow me to witness a horror described as explained in the scream, I would know due to the extraordinary and rare occurrence that there is a reaction which God himself was allowing me to experience which involved the deceased…

1. The next item I would consider is the nature of the communication. With ease and quickly the answer is very clear. The nature of the communication is a plead. Otherwise it simply would not of happened to myself. I would be comfortable with this portion of evaluation.

1. We also know from the inspiring message of Our Lady of Fatima that “God wishes man to pray for the many souls who do not have anyone to pray for them . God wants to save all the souls in hell” These are exact words of apparition 4 I think.

Any alternate translation for myself would be interfering with something which could only demonstrate a self need with no fruitfull outcome. There is no fruitful outcome in the indifference of plead from another. I think I will follow the words of Our Lady… There may be no one else who’s prayer have as much power I may consider, as a third virtuous reality is required and as well serves to my best interests in being humble of heart.

**Of course I would be thinking about the power of forgiveness in above **. Until a formal genuine effort to fully follow the Divine lead was accomplished I would not feel right, as though I’m denying something which I fully expect myself one final day…forgiveness. How can this God forgive me a mere mortal I would think, if I can’t see way way clear to this plead?

:

Your reply was rather long, so I’ve snipped it, and kept what seems to me to be the central bits viz. that my father’s apparition was a plead, and that the core of it was an issue of forgiveness.

All right. During the conversation, part of it went like this - “Son, you’ve got to forgive me!”

I snarled back, “You treated me like dirt for twenty years, and now you want forgiveness!!?”

He replied, with a look of anguish, “**Son, it’s not for me. It’s too late for me. It’s for you. ** If you don’t you’ll destroy yourself!”

---

There are a couple of issues here. The first is that he was pleading for forgiveness, but it was not for him. ** In his own words, “It was too late for (him)”. **

Now I’ll admit I struggle with forgiving him, because he had a deliberate policy for 20 years to destroy my confidence.

And I still remember the scream at the very end. If anything, he seemed to be brought even closer so that I would get the full message. I was an atheist myself at the time (in case anybody thinks I was having a quasi Christian thought projection), and not living a particularly good life in some ways.

So I’ll accept your thoughts about it being a plead for forgiveness, but at the same time I make no bones about the sheer terror of his final scream. He could see something coming, and it terrified him to the core.

Sorry, but that’s what happened. I still remember the way something woke me up with a shake on the back since I often sleep face down, the way I turned over, the way he materialised near the bedroom door with a look of surprise on his face, the way he mainly hung around the foot of the bed, the way I could both see him, but also through him if I chose, even to the point of seeing the old sagging bookcase behind him. At one time he was right over me, when I’d tried to accuse him of something that was really my own decision. His eyes were like black pits, and he shouted, “Don’t blame me for that! That was **YOUR **decision!” Then he temporarily disappeared, and when I recovered, he was back at the foot of the bed, looking very discouraged. That was pretty close to the end.

Just before he screamed, he turned to my left, his right, and he could see something coming. Then he screamed in sheer terror, and simply disappeared.

And that was it. I’ll admit I have to work on this issue of forgiveness. As my old pastor commented, “I think the reason you find it so hard to forgive him is that he did it deliberately.” But make no bones about judgement. It’s there all right.

 

[tonyrey]

Your reply was rather long, so I’ve snipped it, and kept what seems to me to be the central bits viz. that my father’s apparition was a plead, and that the core of it was an issue of forgiveness.

All right. During the conversation, part of it went like this - “Son, you’ve got to forgive me!”

I snarled back, “You treated me like dirt for twenty years, and now you want forgiveness!!?”

He replied, with a look of anguish, “**Son, it’s not for me. It’s too late for me. It’s for you. ** If you don’t you’ll destroy yourself!”

---

There are a couple of issues here. The first is that he was pleading for forgiveness, but it was not for him. ** In his own words, “It was too late for (him)”. **

Now I’ll admit I struggle with forgiving him, because he had a deliberate policy for 20 years to destroy my confidence.

And I still remember the scream at the very end. If anything, he seemed to be brought even closer so that I would get the full message. I was an atheist myself at the time (in case anybody thinks I was having a quasi Christian thought projection), and not living a particularly good life in some ways.

So I’ll accept your thoughts about it being a plead for forgiveness, but at the same time I make no bones about the sheer terror of his final scream. He could see something coming, and it terrified him to the core.

Sorry, but that’s what happened. I still remember the way something woke me up with a shake on the back since I often sleep face down, the way I turned over, the way he materialised near the bedroom door with a look of surprise on his face, the way he mainly hung around the foot of the bed, the way I could both see him, but also through him if I chose, even to the point of seeing the old sagging bookcase behind him. At one time he was right over me, when I’d tried to accuse him of something that was really my own decision. His eyes were like black pits, and he shouted, “Don’t blame me for that! That was **YOUR **decision!” Then he temporarily disappeared, and when I recovered, he was back at the foot of the bed, looking very discouraged. That was pretty close to the end.

Just before he screamed, he turned to my left, his right, and he could see something coming. Then he screamed in sheer terror, and simply disappeared.

And that was it. I’ll admit I have to work on this issue of forgiveness. As my old pastor commented, “I think the reason you find it so hard to forgive him is that he did it deliberately.” But make no bones about judgement. It’s there all right.

I believe it is unwise to suggest that any human being **is **in hell…

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Your reply was rather long, so I’ve snipped it, and kept what seems to me to be the central bits viz. that my father’s apparition was a plead, and that the core of it was an issue of forgiveness.

All right. During the conversation, part of it went like this - “Son, you’ve got to forgive me!”

I snarled back, “You treated me like dirt for twenty years, and now you want forgiveness!!?”

He replied, with a look of anguish, “**Son, it’s not for me. It’s too late for me. It’s for you. ** If you don’t you’ll destroy yourself!”

---

There are a couple of issues here. The first is that he was pleading for forgiveness, but it was not for him. ** In his own words, “It was too late for (him)”. **

Now I’ll admit I struggle with forgiving him, because he had a deliberate policy for 20 years to destroy my confidence.

And I still remember the scream at the very end. If anything, he seemed to be brought even closer so that I would get the full message. I was an atheist myself at the time (in case anybody thinks I was having a quasi Christian thought projection), and not living a particularly good life in some ways.

So I’ll accept your thoughts about it being a plead for forgiveness, but at the same time I make no bones about the sheer terror of his final scream. He could see something coming, and it terrified him to the core.

Sorry, but that’s what happened. I still remember the way something woke me up with a shake on the back since I often sleep face down, the way I turned over, the way he materialised near the bedroom door with a look of surprise on his face, the way he mainly hung around the foot of the bed, the way I could both see him, but also through him if I chose, even to the point of seeing the old sagging bookcase behind him. At one time he was right over me, when I’d tried to accuse him of something that was really my own decision. His eyes were like black pits, and he shouted, “Don’t blame me for that! That was **YOUR **decision!” Then he temporarily disappeared, and when I recovered, he was back at the foot of the bed, looking very discouraged. That was pretty close to the end.

Just before he screamed, he turned to my left, his right, and he could see something coming. Then he screamed in sheer terror, and simply disappeared.

And that was it. I’ll admit I have to work on this issue of forgiveness. As my old pastor commented, “I think the reason you find it so hard to forgive him is that he did it deliberately.” But make no bones about judgement. It’s there all right.

Your reply was rather long, so I’ve snipped it, and kept what seems to me to be the central bits viz. that my father’s apparition was a plead, and that the core of it was an issue of forgiveness.

All right. During the conversation, part of it went like this - “Son, you’ve got to forgive me!”

I snarled back, “You treated me like dirt for twenty years, and now you want forgiveness!!?”

He replied, with a look of anguish, “**Son, it’s not for me. It’s too late for me. It’s for you. ** If you don’t you’ll destroy yourself!”

---

There are a couple of issues here. The first is that he was pleading for forgiveness, but it was not for him. ** In his own words, “It was too late for (him)”. **

Now I’ll admit I struggle with forgiving him, because he had a deliberate policy for 20 years to destroy my confidence.

And that was it. I’ll admit I have to work on this issue of forgiveness. As my old pastor commented, “I think the reason you find it so hard to forgive him is that he did it deliberately.” But make no bones about judgement. It’s there all right.

( had to do some content trimming)

Good … if it was too late , there would be no reason for the visit. Never ever believe what is said in the passion of a desperate plead.

Hopelessness knows not recovery…

Thoughtfulness knows nothing but healing as we are all engaged in healing at every moment. I’m not arguing with you and could easily provide a greater argument on behalf of your feelings, although the argument for healing and charity is much stronger and cannot be reduced in the face of fear…in this case your visions expressed fearful out come.

I know where your coming from with respects to the confidence issue ect.

In a way…you continue to have little confidence in the effect of your participation in creation. by following the suggested doomed outcome, You may well be invariably agreeing with the brainwashed suggestion of in-adequacy. and non significance in contribution. Nothing can be done then.

You can do nothing,… you are indeed in-adequate and cannot abort yourself from the origin of all this life long non-sense…fear. …

Fear is the boss.

Don’t buy it.

Ive gotta go and find your interior reflection and honesty enormously refreshing…So will retract
my dismay and dis-appointment …these things take time and everyone is different…you shouldn’t feel you have pressure…make yourself as comfortable as possible…
focus on comfotability…peace is important:thumbsup: