Near Death Experiences

[JDaniel]

There is no ‘‘mind’’ conspiring to make anything happen in my view.

Just look at the amount of mass extinctions the earth has endured.

Apart form these, there is a consensus among experts that something in the region of 99% of all life forms to have ever lived, are extinct.

That alone should tell us there is no ‘‘mind’’ controlling anything!

Ag:

Is it possible, in your opinion, that all of that was preparatory? You might ask, “Preparatory” for what?" But, I’ll let you answer that.

By the way, you do realize, do you not, that “consensus” is the real last refuge of a scoundrel? When the anti-smoking fanatics recognized that there was no beyond-doubt evidence that second-hand smoke kills, they went to “consensus.” Moreover, it was not even “consensus of scientists” that they went to, it was “consensus of the (regular) people!”

God bless and Merry Christmas,
jd

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hi Jim,

Her case is well documented in a couple of books that I have read - Science and the Near Death Experience by Chris Carter; Evidence of the Afterlife by David Fontana and Pam Atwater’s own book - The Big Book of Near Death Experiences. It is a truly stunning case that can be life changing I think for those who read or hear about it.

Happy Christmas

Fran

Fran, I’ve placed these books on order. Thanks so much!

Christmas blessings, Jim

 

[Mortification]

might easily manufacture some sort of eternal-life fantasy to create a sense of comfort in its last moments. It seems we’re often telling ourselves things to make us feel better…

Kind of like atheists who tell themselves there’s no God or afterlife so they can comfort themselves as they wallow in their sins here on earth without feeling guilty about it?

 

[ASimon]

Kind of like atheists who tell themselves there’s no God or afterlife so they can comfort themselves as they wallow in their sins here on earth without feeling guilty about it?

Well, certainly the sins that are nothing but Stone Aged edicts, based on the absurd pre-scientific understandings of ignorant, sheep-herding mortals. We are certainly better served knowing what nonsense those ideas represented, now that they are safely discarded on the ash-heap of history.

 

[Mortification]

Well, certainly the sins that are nothing but Stone Aged edicts, based on the absurd pre-scientific understandings of ignorant, sheep-herding mortals. We are certainly better served knowing what nonsense those ideas represented, now that they are safely discarded on the ash-heap of history.

lol You guys crack me up. Don’t spend your time justifying your actions or way of thinking to me, I’m not the one you have to answer to.

God bless you and have a Merry Christmas.

 

[ASimon]

lol You guys crack me up. Don’t spend your time justifying your actions or way of thinking to me, I’m not the one you have to answer to.

God bless you and have a Merry Christmas.

I only answer to those that presume to speak to me first, and that I have good reason to believe actually exist.

 

[tonyrey]

Well, certainly the sins that are nothing but Stone Aged edicts, based on the absurd pre-scientific understandings of ignorant, sheep-herding mortals. We are certainly better served knowing what nonsense those ideas represented, now that they are safely discarded on the ash-heap of history.

Do you regard the commands not to kill or steal, bear false witness or commit adultery as absurd pre-scientific edicts?

 

[Lui]

This will dispose of atheistgirl’s objections.

Life After Death: The Evidence

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5129VDGLOSL.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Fairies-Photographic-Evidence-Existence-Another/dp/0060282347

 

[ASimon]

Do you regard the commands not to kill or steal, bear false witness or commit adultery as absurd pre-scientific edicts?

No, but I do regard the commandments to hold no graven images, not to covet my neighbor’s property, and to rest on every 7th day, in that manner.

That’s just the Decalogue. If you want to include Leviticus, Numbers, and the rest of Deuteronomy, I can give you a fuller accounting.

 

[Lui]

Kind of like atheists who tell themselves there’s no God or afterlife so they can comfort themselves as they wallow in their sins here on earth without feeling guilty about it?

You do EXACTLY the same with other religions or do you believe in reincarnation and karma? NO? Why not? Oh, you think Hindus or Buddhists are wrong? I honestly don’t see any difference between a person rejecting Hinduism/Buddhism or a different person rejecting Catholicism.

Kind of like certain Catholics who think being Catholic means they’re a better person than others. You probably think you already have your VIP spot in Heaven reserved…lol.

It will be a big surprise AFTER life

 

[JDaniel]

Your reply was rather long, so I’ve snipped it, and kept what seems to me to be the central bits viz. that my father’s apparition was a plead, and that the core of it was an issue of forgiveness.

All right. During the conversation, part of it went like this - “Son, you’ve got to forgive me!”

I snarled back, “You treated me like dirt for twenty years, and now you want forgiveness!!?”

He replied, with a look of anguish, “**Son, it’s not for me. It’s too late for me. It’s for you. ** If you don’t you’ll destroy yourself!”

---

There are a couple of issues here. The first is that he was pleading for forgiveness, but it was not for him. ** In his own words, “It was too late for (him)”. **

Now I’ll admit I struggle with forgiving him, because he had a deliberate policy for 20 years to destroy my confidence.

And I still remember the scream at the very end. If anything, he seemed to be brought even closer so that I would get the full message. I was an atheist myself at the time (in case anybody thinks I was having a quasi Christian thought projection), and not living a particularly good life in some ways.

So I’ll accept your thoughts about it being a plead for forgiveness, but at the same time I make no bones about the sheer terror of his final scream. He could see something coming, and it terrified him to the core.

Sorry, but that’s what happened. I still remember the way something woke me up with a shake on the back since I often sleep face down, the way I turned over, the way he materialised near the bedroom door with a look of surprise on his face, the way he mainly hung around the foot of the bed, the way I could both see him, but also through him if I chose, even to the point of seeing the old sagging bookcase behind him. At one time he was right over me, when I’d tried to accuse him of something that was really my own decision. His eyes were like black pits, and he shouted, “Don’t blame me for that! That was **YOUR **decision!” Then he temporarily disappeared, and when I recovered, he was back at the foot of the bed, looking very discouraged. That was pretty close to the end.

Just before he screamed, he turned to my left, his right, and he could see something coming. Then he screamed in sheer terror, and simply disappeared.

And that was it. I’ll admit I have to work on this issue of forgiveness. As my old pastor commented, “I think the reason you find it so hard to forgive him is that he did it deliberately.” But make no bones about judgement. It’s there all right.

Bob:

Your life and my life weren’t much different, I think. You haven’t said as much, but, my dad was physically abusive as well. He was very strong and when he hit one of us kids, which was not very often, he inflicted pain and life-long damage. I learned to forgive him, after some time, and now I only think good thoughts where he is concerned. It’s as though I switched off a light bulb. (If I can do it, you can, too.)

I think my forgiveness cycle started a little before he passed, so I did not have to experience his after-death presence.

God bless,
jd

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I was possibly a bit more fortunate than you in that the physical abuse was relatively mild. It was the constant criticisms and ridicule that did the damage, plus the tension of wondering if you were going to wonder if you woke up next morning. He put an axe through the back door once because my mother locked him out, and had a couple of fire arms down stairs.

I remember getting the equivalent of 8A’s for my year 10 (what we then called Junior).

His response? “You’re not getting away with this! I’ll make sure you don’t succeed! You’re not showing me up!”

Stuff like that for 20 years.

Actually earlier on in this thread, I said I met a bloke who’d had an NDE following an operating to remove most of his stomach. I met him at Brighton Nursing Home, when I was driving a Maxi Taxi. I think he had a similar experience to yours.

He told me, amongst other things, he had an alcoholic father who once fractured his skull when he was a teenager. He’d had a difficult life, and was only a year older than me. That was probably why I asked him what he was doing in the Nursing Home, since most residents were a good deal older, and that led to his remark about the NDE.

It’s pretty difficult, and even though you might have forgiven him, that doesn’t resurrect the lost opportunities, repair the vocational damage, restore lost siblings (if any) etc.

All the best with your own journey.

 

[tonyrey]

Do you regard the commands not to kill or steal, bear false witness or commit adultery as absurd pre-scientific edicts?

In other words you accept the fundamental moral principles of the Decalogue regarding your neighbour… Not so absurd after all.

… but I do regard the commandments to hold no graven images, not to covet my neighbor’s property, and to rest on every 7th day, in that manner.

We’ll have to tell them to be careful in case you can’t resist temptation!

That’s just the Decalogue. If you want to include Leviticus, Numbers, and the rest of Deuteronomy, I can give you a fuller accounting.

Superseded by the teaching of Jesus…

 

[Fran65]

I was possibly a bit more fortunate than you in that the physical abuse was relatively mild. It was the constant criticisms and ridicule that did the damage, plus the tension of wondering if you were going to wonder if you woke up next morning. He put an axe through the back door once because my mother locked him out, and had a couple of fire arms down stairs.

The way that I think about those who behave like this (and I was in a very abusive relationship for 10 years and have parents with lots of difficulties themselves) is that they are victims too - either victims of their own childhoods and/or victims of their own feelings and behaviour. I find it much easier to forgive when I think about what must have happened to distort them to such a degree and how much pain they must feel to have to inflict on it others. This does not mean that I allow them to abuse me however.

It’s like being around a dog that has been beaten and tormented for all of its life and is now vicious. I protect myself from the dog while recognising why he is like that and forgiving him when he does attack.

My father who can be highly volatile, destructive and violent is in his 70s and the little frightened boy inside him is emerging more and more. It is very sad.

I hope this helps God bless.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

The way that I think about those who behave like this (and I was in a very abusive relationship for 10 years and have parents with lots of difficulties themselves) is that they are victims too - either victims of their own childhoods and/or victims of their own feelings and behaviour. I find it much easier to forgive when I think about what must have happened to distort them to such a degree and how much pain they must feel to have to inflict on it others. This does not mean that I allow them to abuse me however.

It’s like being around a dog that has been beaten and tormented for all of its life and is now vicious. I protect myself from the dog while recognising why he is like that and forgiving him when he does attack.

My father who can be highly volatile, destructive and violent is in his 70s and the little frightened boy inside him is emerging more and more. It is very sad.

I hope this helps God bless.

I’m aware that many of these people come from similar backgrounds, or they may have alcohol or drug issues. However we are also responsible for our own actions. If we know we’ve got a problem, it is our responsibility to do something about it, including getting help if need be.

My father for instance had a very austere upbringing during the Depression era, suffered severely from whooping cough when young, left home when he was 14 to work on a cattle station, fought during WWII for his country, which up to that time hadn’t done much for him. I also suspect his father of having some similar traits, and I had the advantage of getting psychiatric help, including Prozac for depression, which just wasn’t available at the time he lived.

But he basically refused to get any help, and always blamed somebody else. As my old pastor said, “He didn’t seem to have a kind word for anybody.”

An alcoholic for example faces a struggle I know nothing about. But at the same time I think most alcoholics know very well there are agencies like AA, psychiatrists, self help groups etc, which can help them, but only if they are willing to help themselves. To quote my old pastor again, he had a friend who was an alcholic on the dry. In his words, the friend would “walk over cut glass to help an alcoholic who genuinely wanted to break the hold it had on him. But if he thought he wasn’t fair dinkum, he wouldn’t roll over in bed to help him.”

As the light bulb jokes goes, “How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?” “Only one, but the light bulb really has to want to change”.

These people have a responsibility to do something about their behaviour. There are other people willing to help, including many who have walked the same path. But until the person is prepared to take responsibility for their own actions, nothing will change.

My father had a responsibility to do something about his endless sarcasm, and vile temper, and his alcoholism. The man who fractured his son’s skull would have known he was an alcoholic, and needed to do something about it. Your father is in his 70’s, and so far has seemingly avoided doing anything about his behaviour. How long do they need to make this decision? Meanwhile as you pointed out, forgiveness is our only respite.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

That seems to be a fairly common occurrence among the clinically dead in hospitals. I’ve seen many videos on Youtube and read many cases of that exact same thing. There’s a kid that died and explained everything that his mom and dad were saying in the waiting room.

Also, that is one of the best signatures I’ve ever seen. Awesome!

Many thanks! You’ve given me an idea – I’ll try to make it my sig.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[Fran65]

I’m aware that many of these people come from similar backgrounds, or they may have alcohol or drug issues. However we are also responsible for our own actions. If we know we’ve got a problem, it is our responsibility to do something about it, including getting help if need be.

While this is undoubtedly true and there are people who are in full control of their feelings and behaviour who choose to behave in an abusive way, we are none of us in a position to know whether this is the case for any individual. The attitude you express here is similar to saying to a someone who suffers from depression to cheer up or to someone with anorexia that they just need to eat or accept help. If someone is sick with a mental illness or personality disorder it often looks willful - but tragically it isn’t.The awful thing is that often people in these conditions have none or very little insight and cannot accept that they are wrong. I have no idea why your father behaved as he did, although you are right that it is often part of an intergenerational cycle of abuse. The only thing certain is that it was wrong.

I am truly sorry that you have experienced such abuse and I hope that you can achieve some peace very soon.

God Bless

 

[JDaniel]

I was possibly a bit more fortunate than you in that the physical abuse was relatively mild. It was the constant criticisms and ridicule that did the damage, plus the tension of wondering if you were going to wonder if you woke up next morning. He put an axe through the back door once because my mother locked him out, and had a couple of fire arms down stairs.

I remember getting the equivalent of 8A’s for my year 10 (what we then called Junior).

His response? “You’re not getting away with this! I’ll make sure you don’t succeed! You’re not showing me up!”

Stuff like that for 20 years.

Actually earlier on in this thread, I said I met a bloke who’d had an NDE following an operating to remove most of his stomach. I met him at Brighton Nursing Home, when I was driving a Maxi Taxi. I think he had a similar experience to yours.

He told me, amongst other things, he had an alcoholic father who once fractured his skull when he was a teenager. He’d had a difficult life, and was only a year older than me. That was probably why I asked him what he was doing in the Nursing Home, since most residents were a good deal older, and that led to his remark about the NDE.

It’s pretty difficult, and even though you might have forgiven him, that doesn’t resurrect the lost opportunities, repair the vocational damage, restore lost siblings (if any) etc.

All the best with your own journey.

Bob:

And likewise to you. Please keep on submitting responses on CAF. Yours are always so full of valuable stuff. I enjoy reading them.

All that said, it doesn’t mean I won’t disagree with you at some time or other. I seek as much truth as any man. But, you’ll always have my respect.

God bless,
jd

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Bob:

And likewise to you. Please keep on submitting responses on CAF. Yours are always so full of valuable stuff. I enjoy reading them.

All that said, it doesn’t mean I won’t disagree with you at some time or other. I seek as much truth as any man. But, you’ll always have my respect.

God bless,
jd

Thanks, JD. I’d be a bit worried if people didn’t disagree with me at some time or other.

 

[exoflare]

lol You guys crack me up. Don’t spend your time justifying your actions or way of thinking to me, I’m not the one you have to answer to.

God bless you and have a Merry Christmas.

I never understood that either. People who are supposedly convinced that life before death is all that there is, and after that you cease to exist… should be making their brief time here count, right? Live every moment for themselves, not wasting any of that precious time entertaining the delusions of others. Yet here they are every day feeling the need to get so defensive for their beliefs, arguing with a bunch of “ignorant sheepherders.”