Near Death Experiences

[tonyrey]

I find it quite humorous that some think that a dead brain is more active than a living brain.

I find it highly amusing that some believe a lump of tissue in the skull is the source of **all **personal activity - including their hypothesis that a lump of tissue in the skull is the source of their belief that a lump of tissue in the skull is the source of **all **personal activity!

 

[tonyrey]

Quite. When the brains dead, it’s dead… and so is everything associated with it …

Sarah x

Does your brain know it exists? How would you prove it?

 

[tonyrey]

I have a friend who did not have a ‘‘near’’ death experience, he WAS dead! After he was pinned between a car that fell off its lift and a tool box. He said there was nothing. Just a time gap between when he died and when he was revived…

The fact that he remembers nothing proves nothing!

 

[tonyrey]

Hi Sarah,

Welcome to CAF.

Regarding the hypothesis that NDEs are the result of a ‘dying brain’ I’m afraid that it simply does not hold together under scrutiny. For example one (verified) case - that of Pam Atwater occurred during a period when there was no brain activity at all. She was able to describe surgical instruments, the position of staff and their conversations during a period when she was clinically dead - no cardiac activity, no brain activity (recorded by EEG). Her case is a very interesting one that has been thoroughly investigated and for which there is so far no physical explanation.

Other problems with the explanation include that:
1)Anoxia produces disorientation and confusion rather than the coherence and clarity reported by NDErs. One study also found higher blood oxygen levels amongst NDErs than those who did not report an NDE.
2)High levels of carbon dioxide in the blood produce many other symptoms which are not present in NDEs. For example strong convulsive movements.High levels of carbon dioxide are also associated with anoxia (see above).
3)Temporal lobe seizures are demonstrated to produce very mundane images and experiences rather than those associated with the NDE. Experiences are also fragmented and confused unlike the NDE.
4)Drugs have not been shown to produce anything like the NDE. There are striking and consistent similarities and core experience in the NDE while drug induced hallucinations are varied and idiosyncratic.

In summary as the brain enters the process of dying it becomes more disorganized and incoherent. This is in marked contrast to the NDE. The suggestion that NDEs are a post hoc restructuring of the experience does not hold either as those who have experienced anoxia, drug ingestion, hypercarbia etc do not restructure their experiences in a similar way.

There is also no association between preceding beliefs and religion and having an NDE. An atheist is as likely to report a highly coherent NDE with the meeting of a loving figure as a Catholic, Hindu or Buddhist. It also cuts across cultures in a way that drug induced/anoxic hallucinations do not.

An excellent book on this topic is by Chris Carter an Oxford trained philosopher who applies all of his intellectual powers and education to this fascinating area - ‘Science and the Near Death Experience’. It is far more rigorous and accurate than any Daily Mail piece.

Pax et Bonum

Thanks for excellent and fascinating post on the topic.

 

[atheistgirl]

Sorry, but you’re wrong. Dead wrong.

Well, you can say I’m wrong all you like, and that’s what you believe and that’s fine. I believe something different. And until I find significant evidence to the contrary, annecdotes from patients, doctors or anyone else wont convince me. I mean, it’s not hard to find perfectly respectable rational and qualified scientists, doctors etc who believe in the Hindu gods, and UFO’s. Should I give their beliefs any more credibility just because they are doctors? Naw, I thought not.

Sarah x

 

[Julia_Mae]

Educating myself on the topic? I’ve read tons and tons on the subject. I’m dashing out to a hospital appointment right now so I’ll post a link to some of the research - medical and scientific - Ive read. I’ve read the believers, and the skeptics.

Try not to be so judgemental and presumptious in future eh?

Sarah x

I presume nothing, it’s obvious from your initial dismissive response that whatever you have read, regardless of amount, hasn’t been very balanced, as it’s medically incorrect. See Fran65’s post, for further information.

Hope your appointment went well.

 

[buffalo]

I find it quite humorous that some think that a dead brain is more active than a living brain.

But now we know that the instruments we use to monitor brain activity are wrong.

 

[atheistgirl]

Hope your appointment went well.

It did. Thank you. 4 months of treatment - yuk - as the hospital is a loooooooong hike from here, and a follow up appointment in 6 months. But all should be well at the end of it. Thank you.

Fran65 send me a very nice pm and his post here was very good … Ive not had time to get around to it properly. I will do later today.

Sarah x

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hi Sarah,

Welcome to CAF.

Regarding the hypothesis that NDEs are the result of a ‘dying brain’ I’m afraid that it simply does not hold together under scrutiny. For example one (verified) case - that of Pam Atwater occurred during a period when there was no brain activity at all. She was able to describe surgical instruments, the position of staff and their conversations during a period when she was clinically dead - no cardiac activity, no brain activity (recorded by EEG). Her case is a very interesting one that has been thoroughly investigated and for which there is so far no physical explanation.

Is Pam Atwater from England? A similar case occurred in Arizona, USA, involving a doctor who was my surgeon, but I don’t know the woman’s name.

The doctor, a neurologist, had a patient with a life-threatening brain aneurism. He and his team lowered her body temperature to near freezing by packing her in ice, stopped her heart, and pumped most of the blood out of her body. She was flat-lined. She had neither heart nor brain activity. They performed the brain surgery, removed the ice, warmed her body, pumped the blood back into her body, restarted her heart, and brain activity was restored. The whole procedure took several hours. In recovery, the patient described her experience to the surgeon. She observed the surgery, described it, and related the conversation she heard between the doctors and nurses. She said she watched the entire procedure from the ceiling of the operating room. Asked to comment, the doctor said “the medical profession needs a new definition of ‘dead.’ Obviously, the absence of heart and brain activity are inadequate.” The doctor and his patient were interviewed on TV.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[dandingo]

Is Pam Atwater from England? A similar case occurred in Arizona, USA, involving a doctor who was my surgeon, but I don’t know the woman’s name.

The doctor, a neurologist, had a patient with a life-threatening brain aneurism. He and his team lowered her body temperature to near freezing by packing her in ice, stopped her heart, and pumped most of the blood out of her body. She was flat-lined. She had neither heart nor brain activity. They performed the brain surgery, removed the ice, warmed her body, pumped the blood back into her body, restarted her heart, and brain activity was restored. The whole procedure took several hours. In recovery, the patient described her experience to the surgeon. She observed the surgery, described it, and related the conversation she heard between the doctors and nurses. She said she watched the entire procedure from the ceiling of the operating room. Asked to comment, the doctor said “the medical profession needs a new definition of ‘dead.’ Obviously, the absence of heart and brain activity are inadequate.” The doctor and his patient were interviewed on TV.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

That seems to be a fairly common occurrence among the clinically dead in hospitals. I’ve seen many videos on Youtube and read many cases of that exact same thing. There’s a kid that died and explained everything that his mom and dad were saying in the waiting room.

Also, that is one of the best signatures I’ve ever seen. Awesome!

 

[tonyrey]

Is Pam Atwater from England? A similar case occurred in Arizona, USA, involving a doctor who was my surgeon, but I don’t know the woman’s name.

The doctor, a neurologist, had a patient with a life-threatening brain aneurism. He and his team lowered her body temperature to near freezing by packing her in ice, stopped her heart, and pumped most of the blood out of her body. She was flat-lined. She had neither heart nor brain activity. They performed the brain surgery, removed the ice, warmed her body, pumped the blood back into her body, restarted her heart, and brain activity was restored. The whole procedure took several hours. In recovery, the patient described her experience to the surgeon. She observed the surgery, described it, and related the conversation she heard between the doctors and nurses. She said she watched the entire procedure from the ceiling of the operating room. Asked to comment, the doctor said “the medical profession needs a new definition of ‘dead.’ Obviously, the absence of heart and brain activity are inadequate.” The doctor and his patient were interviewed on TV.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

Thank you, Jim, for that fascinating post. I’m fascinated to know how the sceptics will attempt to explain that - away!

 

[JDaniel]

Quite. When the brains dead, it’s dead… and so is everything associated with it …

Sarah x

Ag:

How do you, or your sources, explain the radically different experiences of NDE’rs from anything they (or “we”) have ever experienced while alive? How do you, or your sources, explain the radical after-effects of NDE’s that are unlike anything they have ever experienced in their lives? How do NDE’rs “know” that they were “dead?” How do the people around them, at the times of their NDE’s, know that they experienced something that they’ve never experienced before? How these people know that an NDE’r could only have known certain things unless they were, in fact, “walking dead?” By “conspiracy?”

If you had been blessed with all of your knowledge from yours reams of research, you should be able to, without any obfuscatory language, answer these questions crisply. I’m not denying your statements, I am simply doing my own research.

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

Asked to comment, the doctor said “the medical profession needs a new definition of ‘dead.’ Obviously, the absence of heart and brain activity are inadequate.”

The human consciousness project, under Sam Parnia, has been looking at NDE’s for the last few years. It’s very interesting stuff, and still inconclusive.

But there does appear to be a general concensus among those medics and researchers involved that death should not be viewed as a ‘‘point’’ in time, but rather a process that follows a set pattern. Hence why people can be brought back from being clinically dead. There appears to be a window of opportunity. We know this as people have been revived. Asked last year I think I was, what he thought of NDE’s he said as a scientist he was open minded and objective but the evidence thus far seemed to say to him it was all illusionary. But the mechanisms are not properly understood, so his views are subject to change.

I do not believe in life after death and I believe death is the end. If science can conclusively show otherwise, then so be it. But even if it did, that would not in any way prove the existence of a personal God.

Sarah x

 

[buffalo]

The human consciousness project, under Sam Parnia, has been looking at NDE’s for the last few years. It’s very interesting stuff, and still inconclusive.

But there does appear to be a general concensus among those medics and researchers involved that death should not be viewed as a ‘‘point’’ in time, but rather a process that follows a set pattern. Hence why people can be brought back from being clinically dead. There appears to be a window of opportunity. We know this as people have been revived. Asked last year I think I was, what he thought of NDE’s he said as a scientist he was open minded and objective but the evidence thus far seemed to say to him it was all illusionary. But the mechanisms are not properly understood, so his views are subject to change.

I do not believe in life after death and I believe death is the end. If science can conclusively show otherwise, then so be it. But even if it did, that would not in any way prove the existence of a personal God.

Sarah x

But it would validate the supernatural. It is not very far to go then to a personal God.

 

[atheistgirl]

But it would validate the supernatural. It is not very far to go then to a personal God.

There is no proof whatsoever in the work done so far there is anything of the supernatural involved. I believe we will eventually pin down the biological mechanisms responsible and understand the processes fully. But regardless, it is a momumental leap to go from a dreamlike quasi-consciousness that temporarily extends beyond the exact moment of clinical death, to claiming this is somehow evidence for a personal God. An absolutely momumental leap that as things stand, in my view can in no way what so ever be justified.

Sarah x

 

[JDaniel]

The human consciousness project, under Sam Parnia, has been looking at NDE’s for the last few years. It’s very interesting stuff, and still inconclusive.

But there does appear to be a general concensus among those medics and researchers involved that death should not be viewed as a ‘‘point’’ in time, but rather a process that follows a set pattern. Hence why people can be brought back from being clinically dead. There appears to be a window of opportunity. We know this as people have been revived. Asked last year I think I was, what he thought of NDE’s he said as a scientist he was open minded and objective but the evidence thus far seemed to say to him it was all illusionary. But the mechanisms are not properly understood, so his views are subject to change.

I do not believe in life after death and I believe death is the end. If science can conclusively show otherwise, then so be it. But even if it did, that would not in any way prove the existence of a personal God.

Sarah x

Sarah:

Of course not. That would incur an entirely new set of arguments. But, such arguments would be irrelevant if a real after-life were not presupposed.

God bless,
jd

 

[buffalo]

There is no proof whatsoever in the work done so far there is anything of the supernatural involved. I believe we will eventually pin down the biological mechanisms responsible and understand the processes fully. But regardless, it is a momumental leap to go from a dreamlike quasi-consciousness that temporarily extends beyond the exact moment of clinical death, to claiming this is somehow evidence for a personal God. An absolutely momumental leap that as things stand, in my view can in no way what so ever be justified.

Sarah x

My point was, if evidence is present that there is life after death, it is not that big of a leap to God and a personal God.

 

[atheistgirl]

if a real after-life were not presupposed.

Quite. And people of faith are required to accept that presupposition, otherwise they would not have a belief in the resurrection of the body and eternal life of the soul.

I however, dont have that faith, and dont accept that presupposition.

I fully respect that many billions of people do

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

My point was, if evidence is present that there is life after death, it is not that big of a leap to God and a personal God.

I did understand your point the first time round. And I think it’s a monumental leap from there to a personal God - the personal God of revelation that Christians believe in. This supernatural force could be anything, from a benign disinterested ‘‘energy’’ to a positively wicked and beligerant cosmic ‘‘force’’ - it could be conscious or unconscious… it could be some kind of superior being where we find out we were nothing but lab rats for some kind of cosmic experiment…it could be anything… including a personal good God, but it seems to me you have no way to get to that God simply by virtue of the fact, for arguments sake, there is an afterlife. You would still have all the work to do to prove it is the God you believe in, as opposed to any of the other thousands of interpretations of God people believe in. And you’d end up coming right back to whether you believe in the Bible and the church - pretty much the arguments we have right now, and which, for the most part, dont move athesits or non believers on.

For clarity, Im just trying to think of scenarios quickly… I dont believe in ANY of the examples I just gave!

Sarah x

 

[dandingo]

I did understand your point the first time round. And I think it’s a monumental leap from there to a personal God - the personal God of revelation that Christians believe in. This supernatural force could be anything, from a benign disinterested ‘‘energy’’ to a positively wicked and beligerant cosmic ‘‘force’’ - it could be conscious or unconscious… it could be some kind of superior being where we find out we were nothing but lab rats for some kind of cosmic experiment…it could be anything… including a personal good God, but it seems to me you have no way to get to that God simply by virtue of the fact, for arguments sake, there is an afterlife. You would still have all the work to do to prove it is the God you believe in, as opposed to any of the other thousands of interpretations of God people believe in. And you’d end up coming right back to whether you believe in the Bible and the church - pretty much the arguments we have right now, and which, for the most part, dont move athesits or non believers on.

For clarity, Im just trying to think of scenarios quickly… I dont believe in ANY of the examples I just gave!

Sarah x

Of course it could be but is there substantial evidence to back any of those claims up?