Near Death Experiences

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duneman said:
did not have a near death experience but one year after my grandfather died he visited me and it was as real as anyone else walking into room. he walked in and when i was not afraid cause i knew he would not hurt me, and when i collected myself and was about to say something, he turned around and walkied out… i was sober and straight, wrote it all on paper, turned on radio and checked later and that song was played then… so i was not dreaming… finally reallized that he could not have visited me if no afterlife and no religion, and he was telling me all was true about religion and afterlife did and does exist… i turned Catholic after that, as he was, and now go to mass everyweek because i feel i was blessed by this event and given a gift, also checked at next family reunion and i was only person he visited and it was at a time in my life i was on the wrong path!!

i had another experience like this too if anyone interested…
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I am - and I’m sure others are. 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
And if there was prove - and I mean proof, not just circumspect inconclusive debatable experimentation and opinion - of the supernatural, I would have no choice but to accept this. And I would.

But I see no evidence for it.

Sarah x 🙂
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I gave you three evidences of the supernatural. Two of them are scientific and presented by a holder of a doctorate in environmental engineering from an Ivy League university and a medical doctor. You rejected them based on a logical fallacy, weak anology. I pointed out the error in your logic. If you don’t have any other reasons to reject this evidence, your belief is based on irrational faith.

What is a logical fallacy? A fallacy is incorrect argumentation in logic and rhetoric resulting in a lack of validity, or more generally, a lack of soundness. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

The scientists who refuse to believe that Einstein’s Theory of Relativity is false when presented with evidence had rational reasons for disbelief, i.e. “one concern was that, at 10.5 microseconds (millionths of a second), the proton pulses that CERN used to generate the neutrino pulses were relatively long. OPERA could not know whether individual neutrinos received at Gran Sasso corresponded to protons early or late in the proton pulse, creating uncertainty around their travel time.” Without rational reasons to reject the evidence that the Theory of Relativity was false, if they chose to continue disbelieving their disbelief would also have been based on irrational faith. But they provided rational reasons.
I didnt express myself clearly enough. I was refering to the fact scientists dont say things like, the speed of light is constant and we will never ever test that again. Things are true or accepted in science, only in so far as they can be falsified.
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Falsified is the key word here. Your statement that there is no evidence for the supernatural is false.
 
tonyrey said:
To believe something you cannot prove necessitates an act of faith.
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:confused:

It requires an act of faith to believe that the laws of nature were suspended with no evidence.

It doesnt require an act of faith to not believe this. :confused:

It’s really as simple as saying, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I dont believe it.

No faith required.

Sarah x 🙂
 
LovePatience said:
I gave you three evidences of the supernatural. .
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They are not evidence of the supernatural.

They may simply be something unexplained at the moment.

Not being able to explain something with our current level of knowledge, is not evidence of the supernatural.

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
They are not evidence of the supernatural.

They may simply be something unexplained at the moment.

Not being able to explain something with our current level of knowledge, is not evidence of the supernatural.

Sarah x 🙂
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They are evidence of the supernatural. Evidence of the supernatural is a proof that something happened that cannot happen according the laws of nature. In the Our Lady of Guadalupe tilma, there are only two possibilities. A human being painted the tilma in 1531 or it is a supernatural event.

It is impossible for a human being to have painted the tilma in 1531 without violating the laws of nature. One example of this evidence: No human being can paint images of people so small that they can fit into the eyes of the woman in the picture without the help of technology. Why? If a human can’t see the images without the help of technology, then a human can’t paint the images with the help of technology. Images of people existed in the eyes of the main woman on the tilma that were only seen when a photograph of the picture was enlarged up to 2,500 times their original size, using 25000 illuminated points per millimetre square. Since no human can paint these pictures without technology, they must be supernatural as there don’t exist other natural beings on this Earth that could have done the deed.

We do have an explanation: a supernatural event. It requires an immense faith in atheism to claim that one day (after studying this supernatural event for over 300 years since the first scientific tests started in 1666) someone, somewhere, sometime will discover a rational explanation other than the most logical one, that this is a supernatural event.

You have no proof that someone will someday somewhere explain how this tilma does not violate the laws of nature so your belief requires faith. You haven’t given a rational reason why your faith is justified so it is irrational. When confronted with evidence that Einstein’s Theory of Relativity was false, rational scientists with integrity did not say: “I still believe that the Theory of Relativity is true. The fact that we can’t explain with our current level of knowledge how this theory can be true in the face of evidence that it is false does not mean the theory is false. Someday, someone, somewhere will produce a logically sound reason or evidence that the theory is still true.” Those who dissented based their dissent on potential flaws in the evidence, not irrational faith in the powers of our descendants. Your trust, your absolute confidence, in the face of evidence to the contrary and without proof or rational reason that supernatural events do not occur is irrational faith.

Perhaps you suspect that time-travel might explain how this is not supernatural? Someone in the 3000s created this image through technology, travelled back in time with this technology, tricked Juan Diego and the Bishop into believing Diego was seeing a vision of Mary and temporarily blinded them so they couldn’t see him take a picture of them, then digitally created the image, and placed the image there for us to find and analyze for the next 400 years?🤷
 
In 1979, a Peruvian engineer, Dr. José Aste Tonsmann, PhD, arrived in Mexico. He had an excellent scientific background. In Lima, where he was born, he had studied at the Colegio San Luis, always coming top of his class. He then graduated in Civil and Environmental Engineering from the Universidad National de Ingenieria of Peru, once again, finishing top out of all the students. He then obtained a second degree in Philosophy and moved to Cornell University in the States. where he specialised in computer science. He had worked with large companies and taught courses in some of the most prestigious American universities. He was, all in all, one of the most qualified modern researchers.
‘I knew nothing about the Virgin of Guadalupe,’Dr. Tonsmann recounts. ‘Right from the very first day of my arrival in Mexico, I had always wanted to digitize a characteristic emblem of Mexico’s culture but I didn’t know what yet. I thought about the famous Aztec calendar or something similar. I happened upon an American magazine which spoke of the studies carried out by José Carlos Salinas Chavez on the Virgin of Guadalupe and contained details of the research carried out on the image’s right eye. This aroused my interest and my curiosity. It appeared to be an interesting investigative field and so I contacted the Shrine’s directors and began my research.’
The work carried out by Dr. José Aste Tonsmann in the last 23 years is incredible. Using the most up to date equipment, the like of which is used by Nasa to decipher photographs taken by satellites in space, he has thoroughly studied the Virgin of Guadalupe’s eyes. He has been able to enlarge them up to 2,500 times their original size, using 25000 illuminated points per millimetre square.
After filtering and processing the digitised images of the eyes to eliminate ‘noise’ and enhance them, he made some astonishing discoveries: not only one person was clearly present in both eyes, but an entire scene, in which there were about ten people. Clearly pictured there is a native Mexican seated naked, with his legs crossed, long hair tied back in a pony tail, an earring and a ring on one finger. Next to him, there is an old man who is quite bald, with a white beard, straight nose, bushy eyebrows and a tear rolling down his right cheek: this character has been identified as the Bishop Juan de Zumarraga. On his left, there is a young man who we imagine is Juan Gonzales, a translator for the bishop. Further along, there is the profile of an old man with a beard and moustache, large roman nose, prominent cheekbones, sunken eyes and half closed lips, who seems to be wearing a pointed hood: he is a native Indian and he is opening his shawl as he turns to face the old bald man.
The scene described thus appears to be Juan Diego bringing the roses to the bishop. The Virgin was present, her eyes took a picture of the scene and its images in the moment she appeared on the native Indian’s shawl, remaining preserved forever.
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The young black girl
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In the description of the various people observed in the Virgin’s eyes, Dr. Aste Tonsmann also identified a young black girl. This caused great alarm among academics as at the time of the apparitions in Mexico, there weren’t any black people. Subsequent research however has since clarified this mystery. In the bishop’s will, it is written that he had a black slave girl who he wanted to release before he died to thank her for her invaluable work.
Next to these ‘historical’ characters who have been perfectly described in accounts of the miracle written around that time, Dr. Aste Tonsmann has singled out a second scene, distanced from the first, almost in the background, of a group of anonymous people, who could represent an Aztec family consisting of a father, mother, grandparents and three children.
Reflecting on his extraordinary scientific discoveries, Dr. Aste Tonsmann, who is a member of the Centro de Estudios Guadalupanos has come up with a possible theory as a believer. He says that the scenes discovered in the image’s pupils could be a ‘message’ from the Virgin of Guadalupe. ‘A message aimed exactly at this moment in time, because the Virgin knew that only by using modern technology would the secrets contained in her eyes be discovered. The scene of anonymous people could indicate the importance of the family and its values; the presence in the Virgin’s gaze of people of mixed race could be an anti-racist warning; the shawl, (the tilma) which for the Aztecs was an item used to work in rather than an actual garment, could be an invitation to make use of technology to spread the word of Christ.’
saintanthonyofpadua.net/messaggero/pagina_stampa.asp?R=&ID=140
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tonyrey said:
I am - and I’m sure others are. 🙂
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about ten years ago i was at work walking across the warehouse , i blacked out for maybe five seconds and came to at other end of warehouse all i know is when i came to i had for just a second or two known the answers to all the big questions… about if God existed, why we are here, what is beyond end of universe, , when i snapped out of it a lady was standing there looking at me and she said "wow you should see your face, and i had a huge smile and all i know is that i had known everything for a split second and it made me really happy and i was completely relieved, God exists, Jesus was his son, we are here for a reason, it is all good good good and all true true true… all of it, and i still think about that positive feeling i had after that… not afraid of anything !!!

hard to explain the experience, but it really happened and was really neat !!!
 
atheistgirl said:
And if there was prove - and I mean proof, not just circumspect inconclusive debatable experimentation and opinion - of the supernatural, I would have no choice but to accept this. And I would.
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You would not. You would say that the evidence that a violation of the laws of nature occurred shows that we aren’t able to explain something, not that there is evidence of the supernatural.
 
LovePatience said:
They are evidence of the supernatural.
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No, sorry, they’re not. Once again, because something is unexplained, is not evidence of the supernatural. I did look up some of the pictures, and to be honest, these ‘‘people’’ are anything but clear. I think perhaps there’s a little bit of confirmation bias going on.

Anyhow, you see evidence for the supernatural, I dont. You think youve provided some logical arguementation, I dont. You refer to a system of ‘‘belief in atheism’’ I don’t, as my atheism is not in any way an article of faith. You dont understand that, I do… so, on reflection, I think this conversation has reached it’s natural conclusion since nothing new is being added and it is just repetition.

Kind Regards

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
If that’s what you think, then that’s fine. My morality has so far served to bring up some very decent human beings, enhance my marriage and family, support numerous others one way and another, and live a life that does minimal harm and maximum good (in so far as I am able) to the people, animals and environment I come in contact with.

I’m happy about that.

Sarah x 🙂
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Your morality is based on the values of the society in which you were born… 🙂
 
tonyrey said:
It requires an act of faith to believe that the laws of nature exist for no reason or purpose in spite of the fact that they are the basis of a rational, moral existence.

GIGO!
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It may be garbage in garbage out to you. It makes perfect sense to me.

Nature doesnt know we’re here, and it doesnt care.

We’re simply engaging with what we’ve got.

I know I’m not remotely as important and significant as I like to think I am, and have no problem with that 🙂

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
It may be garbage in garbage out to you. It makes perfect sense to me.

Nature doesnt know we’re here, and it doesnt care.

We’re simply engaging with what we’ve got.

I know I’m not remotely as important and significant as I like to think I am, and have no problem with that 🙂
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You’re taking for granted your power to engage rather than be engaged against your will!

And also your possession of what you’ve got calls for investigation if you are open-minded…

Your opinion of your importance and significance is grossly inadequate - as you will find out if you ask those who know you. 🙂
 
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