Need advice on Mormon Missionary's

[RC_Matt]

Here is another testimony of plural marriage by a woman:

In 1839, the Huntington family arrived in Nauvoo, along with daughter, Zina. Within months, Zina’s Mother died from the malaria epidemic which claimed the lives of many of the early Nauvoo settlers. About this same time, Zina met and was courted by Henry B. Jacobs, a handsome and talented musician. Sometime during Henry’s courtship of Zina, Joseph Smith explained to Zina the “principle of plural marriage” and asked her to become one of his wives. Zina remembers the conflict she felt about Joseph’s proposal, and her budding relationship with Henry: “O dear Heaven, grant me wisdom! Help me to know the way. O Lord, my god, let thy will be done and with thine arm around about to guide, shield and direct…” Zina declined Joseph’s proposal and chose to marry Henry. They were married on March 7, 1841.

Zina later wrote, that within months of her marriage to Henry, “[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina, I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life’”. Joseph further explained that, “the Lord had made it known to him she was to be his celestial wife.”

Zina chose to obey this commandment and married Joseph on October 27. **She later recalled, “When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag…I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church…**I made a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved…”. Zina continued, “It was something too sacred to be talked about; it was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it for years”.

Zina’s first husband, Henry, was aware of this wedding and they continued to live in the same home. He believed that “whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.” Over the next few years, Henry was sent on several missions to Chicago, Western New York and Tennessee. Henry missed his family and wrote home often. One of Henry’s missionary companions, John D. Lee, said, “Jacobs was bragging about his wife and two children, what a true, virtuous, lovely woman she was. He almost worshiped her…”.

Now I have to say that I took this information from a site that is not that friendly to the lds. But I saw no luring in the middle of the night.

I see no sneaking off in the middle of night to lure woman…

You need to go back and carefully reread that passage you so kindly quoted for our education.

Uh, dude, like don’t you see something even a little bit wrong there? That stuff’s SICK! It sounds EXACTLY like something from one of those whacko CULTS, like the People’s Temple or the Branch Davidians.

Let’s see, Joseph Smith tells Henry’s wife that god has revealed to him that she has to become another one of HIS wives. So she falls for it (was she a blond?) and marries him. Now she has two husbands and he’s added another wife to his harem. Then, ol’ Joeseph Smith sends her OTHER husband away on missions; gee, I wonder why. I also wonder whom the two kids looked like. In addition to being an absolute violation of one of the Ten Commandments (don’t covet your neighbor’s wife), it absolutely indicates some serious psychological pathology in those three individuals.

Thanks for sharing that passage with us. It previously never dawned on me how closely historical Mormonism parallels some of the contemporary cults we have seen in the last few years. I know it’s not like that now, but I think I now have a better understanding of how the ball got rolling. Please share more like that.

 

[why_me]

You need to go back and carefully reread that passage you so kindly quoted for our education.

Uh, dude, like don’t you see something even a little bit wrong there? That stuff’s SICK! It sounds EXACTLY like something from one of those whacko CULTS, like the People’s Temple or the Branch Davidians.

Not quite. Many of these women received personal testimonies of plural marriage after refusing the offer. That is why they became plural wives. None of these women were weak-nature. Many were strong willed from struggle on the frontier. But they received a testimony and a witness. What to do?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Now I have to say that I took this information from a site that is not that friendly to the lds. But I saw no luring in the middle of the night.

I see no sneaking off in the middle of night to lure woman…

whyme, that is a story of wife swapping, pure and simple. That Smith produced a story of angels with flaming swords and the couple bought into says nothing about God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I thought it was a set up. I have seen it before.

Mormon missionaries came to my door. What should I do? Should I read the book of mormon? Should I investigate their church? They are so friendly and loving…

And then suddenly in the responses the same inquistive person becomes just a little antimormon. Now I can’t say that it was like this with the original OP. But it just may seem like it.

The pattern I see is that mormons believe what they want to believe. In cases like this, where missionaries are knocking on doors, you want to believe that every person is baptized 6 weeks later, no questions asked other than “where do I sign up?”

It is when people actually question that you have the problem. When people find answers that are not to your liking, you have the problem. And rather believe what people have to say, you start seeing conspiracies every where.

 

[why_me]

whyme, that is a story of wife swapping, pure and simple. That Smith produced a story of angels with flaming swords and the couple bought into says nothing about God.

Here is an interetesting link about the lds and polygamy:

mormon-polygamy.org/

The story is interesting and an active mind just should not depend on antimormon sites.

 

[Cathy]

Not quite. Many of these women received personal testimonies of plural marriage after refusing the offer. That is why they became plural wives. None of these women were weak-nature. Many were strong willed from struggle on the frontier. But they received a testimony and a witness. What to do?

What to do when receiving testimony from a demon? Get out the holy water, pray the Rosary, consult a priest and go to confession, read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church (in this case regarding adultery), and pray, pray, pray, and pray some more.

 

[RebeccaJ]

melmac;3321599:

Here is the tesimony of one woman who refused Joseph’s offer of marriage at first:

This aroused every drop of scotch in my veins…I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself up the alter a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.

She refused JS’s offer of marriage. But then after a sleepless night of prayer, Lucy felt something in her room: My room became filled with a heavenly influence. To me it was in comparison like a brillant sunshine bursting through the darkest cloud…My soul was filled with a calm sweet peace that I never knew. Supreme happiness took possession of my whole being. Quoted from Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman p. 492.

After that experience with heaven, she was sealed to JS as a plural wife. How to explain it?

Perhaps you should note that this was a girl of 17 years old who was living in the Smith home. Nothing but lust after a young girl on the part of Smith.

Also, you failed to mention that Smith threatened her, telling her that her very salvation was at stake and that: “*If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

Nothing to do with God, plenty to do with an older man, who was experienced in preying on young women, putting ideas into a child’s head.
*

 

[why_me]

Something seems to be wrong with the quotation button. It seems a little confused.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here is an interetesting link about the lds and polygamy:

mormon-polygamy.org/

The story is interesting and an active mind just should not depend on antimormon sites.

And here is a better link about marriage, from Pope John Paul II.

This conjugal communion sinks its roots in the natural complementarity that exists between man and woman, and is nurtured through the personal willingness of the spouses to share their entire life-project, what they have and what they are: for this reason such communion is the fruit and the sign of a profoundly human need. But in the Lord Christ God takes up this human need, confirms it, purifies it and elevates it, leading it to perfection through the sacrament of matrimony: the Holy Spirit who is poured out in the sacramental celebration offers Christian couples the gift of a new communion of love that is the living and real image of that unique unity which makes of the Church the indivisible Mystical Body of the Lord Jesus.
The gift of the Spirit is a commandment of life for Christian spouses and at the same time a stimulating impulse so that every day they may progress towards an ever richer union with each other on all levels-of the body, of the character, of the heart, of the intelligence and will, of the soul(47)-revealing in this way to the Church and to the world the new communion of love, given by the grace of Christ.
Such a communion is radically contradicted by polygamy: this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive. As the Second Vatican Council writes: “Firmly established by the Lord, the unity of marriage will radiate from the equal personal dignity of husband and wife, a dignity acknowledged by mutual and total love.”

 

[why_me]

The site that I linked is a good site with good information.

Interesting tidbit:

Another aspect of Mormon polygamy that often gets attacked is reputed marriages to teenage girls. Today, in the United States, the average age for a first marriage is between 25 and 27 years old, but in the nineteenth century, teenage marriages were not that unusual and in many cases the marriage was contracted, but the girl remained with her family until she reached adulthood. 18 was considered the best age for a young woman to seriously consider marriage and most of Joseph Smith’s wives were between 19 and 21. A couple of the women were younger, about 16, though it is likely they did not cohabit until later. In frontier America, it was not common for a girl to get married as young as 16 or even 14, but nor was it unheard of.

mormon-polygamy.org/origins_mormon_polygamy.html

 

[RC_Matt]

Not quite. Many of these women received personal testimonies of plural marriage after refusing the offer. That is why they became plural wives. None of these women were weak-nature. Many were strong willed from struggle on the frontier. But they received a testimony and a witness. What to do?

What to do? Submit to the will of the cult leader or find yourself in DEEP trouble; this sounds more like a case of latter day kool-aid to me. Jim Jones and his crowd had personal testimonies too. I wonder how many other women Smith was after, of whom we know nothing, ran for the hills rather than engage in this stuff. For crying out loud, he married children and other men’s wives! Maybe he found it kinda kinky; but no matter how hard you try to rationalize this behavior, it was sinful, sick, amoral, anti-social, illegal, indefensible and just plain WRONG.

 

[RC_Matt]

Here is an interetesting link about the lds and polygamy:

mormon-polygamy.org/

The story is interesting and an active mind just should not depend on antimormon sites.

Dude, in the first place, YOU provided the passage from the “anti-Mormon” site, not one of us. In the second place, it’s not anti-Mormon material; it is a historical account you provided for our education and, being one possessed of an “active mind,” I did learn from it.

Also, the link you provided is nothing but attempts at rationalization of polygamy. They also have the number Smith’s wives wrong. There are 33 documented wives; the youngest of which was 14 years-old, Helen Kimbell. Some people claim he had up to 54 wives, but the other 21 wives are not properly documented.

 

[PaulDupre]

The following excerpt is from a love letter 40 year-old Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K. Whitney’s 17 year-old daughter Sarah Ann, whom Smith had secretly “married.” It reveals Smith’s horrid deception of his real wife Emma and the cloak-and-dagger approach to his extramarital affairs:

“… the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty. … Only be careful to escape observation, as much as possible, I know it is a heroick undertakeing; but so much the greater friendship, and the more Joy, when I see you I will tell you all my plans, I cannot write them on paper, burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts, my life depends upon it. … I close my letter, I think Emma wont come tonight if she dont, dont fail to come to night, I subscribe myself your most obedient, and affectionate, companion, and friend. Joseph Smith.”
- Joseph Smith Handwritten Letter

Thankfully, Sarah Ann was bright enough not to burn the letter, which is why it is widely known to this day.

Ask yourself if the author of this letter could have been a prophet of God.

Paul

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

The following excerpt is from a love letter 40 year-old Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K. Whitney’s 17 year-old daughter Sarah Ann, whom Smith had secretly “married.” It reveals Smith’s horrid deception of his real wife Emma and the cloak-and-dagger approach to his extramarital affairs:

Thankfully, Sarah Ann was bright enough not to burn the letter, which is why it is widely known to this day.

Great post, Paul.

Start a thread with this letter and its provenance.

Let’s rile the saints! (well, zerinus and tomnossor anyway)

Robert

 

[RebeccaJ]

The site that I linked is a good site with good information.

Interesting tidbit:

Another aspect of Mormon polygamy that often gets attacked is reputed marriages to teenage girls. Today, in the United States, the average age for a first marriage is between 25 and 27 years old, but in the nineteenth century, teenage marriages were not that unusual and in many cases the marriage was contracted, but the girl remained with her family until she reached adulthood. 18 was considered the best age for a young woman to seriously consider marriage and most of Joseph Smith’s wives were between 19 and 21. A couple of the women were younger, about 16, though it is likely they did not cohabit until later. In frontier America, it was not common for a girl to get married as young as 16 or even 14, but nor was it unheard of.

mormon-polygamy.org/origins_mormon_polygamy.html

Surely you recognize the difference between two young people getting married, and the pattern of an older man preying on young girls? In this particular case, an orphaned girl living in Smith’s house. She was 17, he was 35 and married. He “married” this girl secretly, while his wife was away. This was nothing but an illicit affair.

 

[RC_Matt]

Thankfully, Sarah Ann was bright enough not to burn the letter, which is why it is widely known to this day.

Paul

Yeah, I checked that one out, too bad she wasn’t bright enough to get outta Dodge.

Smith first saw her when he arrived in Kirkland, she was five years old. When she was almost 15, Smith had a “special revelation” in order to convince her parents that their daughter should become one of his wives; god promised them salvation if they did so. That convenient revelation even provided the words to be used in the marriage ceremony. So, when she was 17, her own father married her to Smith and she became wife No. 11.

 

[Elric]

Surely you recognize the difference between two young people getting married, and the pattern of an older man preying on young girls? In this particular case, an orphaned girl living in Smith’s house. She was 17, he was 35 and married. He “married” this girl secretly, while his wife was away. This was nothing but an illicit affair.

I am not trying to defend Mr Smith in any way, but the age issues are not relevent.

It was not uncommon for an older man to take a younger bride or for that bride to be in their teens. The standards for marriage and adulthood, concerning age, were different to what they are now and even 14 or 15 was not considered too young. Especally in fronteer settings.

The multiple marriage and method of coersion still leave something to be desired.

 

[ibkc]

I am reading Wife No. 19, Or the Story of a Life in Bondage by Ann Eliza Young, one of Brigham Young’s many wives who managed to escape. Her words on the subject of older men marrying little girls does not indicate that this was an accepted practice in mainstream 19th century society, and from reading other sources (non-Mormon related) I think this is correct. It may have been more common then than it is now, but it was not done among decent people.

However, according to Ann Eliza Young, it was extremely common in the early years of the LDS church, and she reports cases of girls as young as eleven married off to much older men. She claims that her father was approached to marry her off at the age of 12. She also reports mothers raising their daughters with the intention of marrying them off to Mommy’s husband as soon as they were old enough. And most heartbreakingly, she describes how older women were shut out of family life and not allowed to live with their husband, even as the men were encouraged to keep taking wives well into their 90’s, if they lived that long.

All in all, my opinion of the founders of the LDS church has plummeted to less than zero. They seem like extremely bad, even evil men.

 

[why_me]

Yeah, I checked that one out, too bad she wasn’t bright enough to get outta Dodge.

Smith first saw her when he arrived in Kirkland, she was five years old. When she was almost 15, Smith had a “special revelation” in order to convince her parents that their daughter should become one of his wives; god promised them salvation if they did so. That convenient revelation even provided the words to be used in the marriage ceremony. So, when she was 17, her own father married her to Smith and she became wife No. 11.

From the wiki:

Sarah Ann Whitney (22 March 1825 in Kirtland, Ohio - 4 September 1873 in Salt Lake City, Utah) is recognized as the sixteenth woman to marry Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.[1]

Contents [hide]
1 Early life
2 Marriage to Joseph Smith Jr.
3 Marriage to Joseph Kingsbury
4 Marriage to Heber C. Kimball
5 Notes
6 References

[edit] Early life
Sarah Ann Whitney was born in Kirtland, Ohio on March 22, 1825 to Newel and Elizabeth Whitney (Compton 1997, p. 343). Sarah was thirteen years old when her family left Kirtland shortly after the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society with the intention of relocating to Missouri. During this time, Sarah’s mother wrote that her children “accepted this change in their worldly circumstances without a murmur. They were devotedly attached to Joseph" (Compton 1997, p. 345). Upon their arrival in St. Louis, the family learned of the escalating conflicts between the Mormons and the Missourians, and the Governor’s issuance of the Extermination Order. Sarah’s family decided to avoid Missouri, and lived temporarily in several places before eventually arriving in Nauvoo, Illinois in the spring of 1840 (Compton 1997, p. 346).

[edit] Marriage to Joseph Smith Jr.
See also: Joseph Smith, Jr. and polygamy
Joseph Smith Jr. and Newel Whitney had a very close friendship. After her parents were introduced to the principle of plural marriage by Smith, the marriage of Sarah to Smith was arranged with her parent’s consent (Brodie 1971, p. 471).[2] This marriage is believed to have been performed for the purpose of creating a “dynastic” link between the Whitney and Smith families in the afterlife. The arrangement of Sarah’s marriage to Joseph Smith was claimed by author Tood Compton to be “very much a family activity (Compton 1997, p. 347).

During the time that she lived in Nauvoo, Sarah and Helen Mar Kimball, who also eventually became one of Smith’s plural wives, became very close friends. According to Helen, she and Sarah were like “the two halves of one soul.” Sarah’s brother Horace Whitney married Helen Mar Kimball “for time” after the death of Joseph Smith Jr. in 1844 (Compton 1997, p. 342).

[edit] Marriage to Joseph Kingsbury
Nine months after her marriage to Smith, Sarah married Joseph Kingsbury in a civil ceremony (Compton 1997, p. 351). This marriage was considered a “pretend” marriage according to Kingsbury, who was also later sealed to his deceased wife Caroline for eternity (Compton 1997, p. 351). Kingsbury recorded the following in his diary,

“On the 29th of April 1843 I according to President Couscil & others agreed to Stand by Sarah Ann Whitney as Supposed to be her husband & had a pretended marriage for the purpose of Bringing about the purposes of God in these last days so spoken by the mouth of the Prophits Isiah Jeremiah Ezekial and also Joseph Smith, and Sarah Ann should recd a Great Glory Honner and Eternal Lives and I also should recd a Great Glory Honner and Eternal lives to the full desire of my heart in having my companion Caroline in the first Reserection to lcaim [claim] her & no one to have power to take her away from me & we Both shall be Crowned & Enthroned togeather I the Celestial Kingdom" (Kingsbury, p. 13).

[edit] Marriage to Heber C. Kimball
After the death of Joseph Smith Jr. in 1844, Sarah’s marriage to Joseph Kingsbury was dissolved and Sarah married Heber C. Kimball “for time” (Compton 1997, p. 353). Seven children resulted from this marriage, two of which died in infancy. Sarah was described in Kimball’s biography as “a woman of wonderful character, respected by the other wives and children. She was deeply devoted to her own children and to Heber C. Kimball.”[3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Ann_Whitney

 

[why_me]

Surely you recognize the difference between two young people getting married, and the pattern of an older man preying on young girls? In this particular case, an orphaned girl living in Smith’s house. She was 17, he was 35 and married. He “married” this girl secretly, while his wife was away. This was nothing but an illicit affair.

Your use of words seems to be extremely bias. It is not easy to have a discusssion with you because you use explosive vocabulary designed for affect. Words such as ‘preying’, illicit, lure etc can release tension but they do not create discussion.