Need advice on Mormon Missionary's

[PaulDupre]

whyme is a fence-sitter, like those spirit-children in the LDS “pre-existence” who were fence sitters and were born with black skin as a punishment. Mormons really believe that. What does whyme think will happen to those who are fence-sitters in this life?

Hint: see Revelation 3:15-16

Paul

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Hi melmac,
Welcome to CAF! The technique the Mormons are using on you (all that welcoming, warmth and acceptance) is well known to those who study cults. It’s called “love-bombing”. All cults do it to attract you to their group and to keep your attention away from the weirdness of their doctrines. It is especially effective on shy, lonely or vulnerable people. Mormons are experts at spotting those people.

As soon as these people learn that they have no hope of converting you, they will lose interest, the love-bombing will cease and they will move on to the next conquest.

The Mormon term for it is “friendshipping” and it is a missionary technique they are taught. They even have an instruction manual on how to friendship effectively to get converts.

Only in Mormonism is friendship not a noun, but a verb - something you do to someone to get what you want.

Think about it. No matter how nicely someone treats you, it doesn’t change what’s true and false.

God love you,
Paul (a former Mormon now Catholic)

You bring up GREAT points Paul.

It should also be noted that a lot of these missionaires are 19-21 year olds who are away from their home on their “mission” for 24 months which Mormons are more than encouraged to go on. (Not quite forced, but you really DO NOT want to NOT do it…) They are raised with that experience ever before them. There is a hymn commonly taught to children in what would be like “sunday school” where they sing (paraphrase!) "I wanna grow up to be a missionary, when I grow a foot or two! I wanna go on a mission…"

During the course of these 24 months they are away from home and will not go back (usually) even for a parent or sibling’s funeral. The average missionary will baptize TWO members of which ONE will stay a Mormon. During the course of those 24 months they are living with “mission partners” who may well be strangers, who they may not like at all, and having every aspect of their life controlled (some are not allowed to read newspapers, watch TV, or listen to the radio…)

ALSO during the course of these 24 months, away from home, living with strangers, they will suffer some of the nastiest invectives and abuse from people on the street and in going door-to-door. I recently saw a PBS special on Mormonism where a hidden cameral followed two all-American looking young guys who were in a big city… People would not talk to them, except for the jerks that would walk up to them and start swearing. They never stopped smiling.

Really, sociologically, this program is amazing - you take kids away from homes with active and strong family life (often with a lot of brothers and sisters) and send them apple-cheeked and green out into the non-Mormon world where they are treated TERRIBLY by most people and have doors slammed in their face. At the end of 24 months they return home, more often than not, affirming that THERE IS NO PLACE LIKE HOME.

So the “Love bombing” - while true - isn’t on the face of it as ominous as some may think it is. These kids who are homesick and treated awfully don’t want to go home from the mission they were raised to be excited about as failures. They also really are genuinely happy someone is actually being receptive to them.

If I were 20, away from home for the first time, living with strangers and everyone told me the Catholic Church was stupid, the first soul who was nice to me and receptive to what I had to say would be my “bestest friend in the whole wide world”! I would love you to death for being nice to me and offering me hope that I would not return to my family a “failure who baptized no one.”

So maybe offer to pray the Our Father with them, and then definately pray for them. But do not read their lit and go to their meetings. It was overwhelming for a Catholic priest - Isaiah Bennett - who for a short time left the priesthood and got married (even after years of seminary formation!) before returning to the Catholic Church. If someone like that - a priest! - can succumb to that environment, I certainly would NOT trust myself.

 

[why_me]

Whyme,
you need to declare yourself honestly. You are a mormon stooge who claims to be Catholic. I believe you to be mormon. It is dishonest to fly false colors. You defend the false religion of mormonism just like a true-blue mormon. Please start telling the truth about who you really are.

Not so. I get along very well at the catholic church that I go to. We have no mormon discussions. However, in the past among the group that I hang out with, there have been antimormon comments and I had to put them in their place. Recently, a nun said to me that mormons are evil without realizing my background. I let her comment slide by and when she met my daughters who are mormon, I believe that she changed her mind.

I defend the lds church against naysayers and mormon haters. That’s all. And I do good work for the catholic church. And I do have two mormon daughters who are fine and living the words of christ. What to do?

 

[why_me]

William Law’s Wife, Jane
"William Law, a former counselor in the First Presidency, wrote in his 13 May 1844 diary: “[Joseph] ha lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and ha found her a virtuous woman” The Laws elaborated on this in a public meeting shortly thereafter. "The Prophet had made dishonorable proposals to [my] wife . . . under cover of his asserted ‘Revelation,’ " Law stated. He further explained that Joseph came to the Law home in the middle of the night when William was absent and told Jane that “the Lord had commanded that he should take spiritual wives, to add to his glory.” Law then called on his wife to corroborate what he had said. She did so and further explained that Joseph had “asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband” Jane refused the Prophet, and according to William Law’s 20 January 1887 letter to the Salt Lake Tribune, Smith then considered the couple apostates. . . . Law asserted. “Joseph is the liar and not she. That Smith admired and lusted after many men’s wives and daughters, is a fact, but they could not help that. They or most of them considered his admiration an insult, and treated him with scorn. In return for this scorn, he generally managed to blacken their reputations–see the case of . . . Mrs. Pratt, a good, virtuous woman.”

This doesn’t look on the up and up to me. J Smith co-erced and threatened if he didn’t get his way he “blackened” their names.

William Law was a faithful member of the church up until the revelation of plural marriage was shown to him. William and Jane considered plural marriage but then rejected it claiming that JS went too far. They both left the lds church and william begun an active policy of destroying mormonism. It is believed that he wrote an inflammatory article in the Nauvoo Expositer before the newspaper was destroyed by the mormons. This eventually led to JS’s death at the hand of a mob. William Law became a mormon hater of the first degree along with Bennett.

Difficult to trust the Law’s under such circumstances.

 

[why_me]

Hiram Kimball’s wife, Sarah
Sarah M. Kimball, a prominent Nauvoo and Salt Lake City Relief Society leader was also approached by the Prophet in early 1842 despite her solid 1840 marriage to Hiram Kimball. Sarah later recalled that

“Joseph Smith taught me the principle of marriage for eternity, and the doctrine of plural marriage. He said that in teaching this he realized that he jeopardized his life; but God had revealed it to him many years before as a privilege with blessings, now God had revealed it again and instructed him to teach with commandment, as the Church could travel [progress] no further without the introduction of this principle.” (“LDS Biographical Encyclopedia” By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887)
Sarah Kimball, like Sarah Pratt, was committed to her husband, and refused the Prophet’s invitation, asking that he “teach it to someone else.” Although she kept the matter quiet, her husband and Smith evidently had difficulties over Smith’s proposal. On 19 May 1842, at a Nauvoo City Council meeting, Smith jotted down and then “threw across the room” a revelation to Kimball which declared that “Hiram Kimball has been insinuating evil, and formulating evil opinions” against the Prophet, which if he does not desist from, he “shall be accursed.” Sarah remained a lifetime member of the Church and a lifelong wife to Hiram Kimball.

• “LDS Biographical Encyclopedia” By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887, Official History of the Church 5: 12-13,

Since Sarah remained active in the lds church, I do believe that there is more to this story than one paragraph. Also, it does show that lds women could certainly say no to plural marriage if they desired to say no.

www.lightplanet.com/mormons/people/sarah_kimball.html

 

[Elric]

Whyme,
you need to declare yourself honestly. You are a mormon stooge who claims to be Catholic. I believe you to be mormon. It is dishonest to fly false colors. You defend the false religion of mormonism just like a true-blue mormon. Please start telling the truth about who you really are.

You wont get a straight (or apparently truthful) answer from him. Have a read of the other threads that he has posted in, he seems to contradict hmself a lot and give clever responses that dont really answer anything.

I believe that he has stated that he is a morman, but I cant remember which thread that was in.

Its kind of sad when a person acts like that.

 

[ibkc]

Since Sarah remained active in the lds church, I do believe that there is more to this story than one paragraph. Also, it does show that lds women could certainly say no to plural marriage if they desired to say no.%between%

Ann Eliza Young states that yes, a woman could say “no” to plural marriage, and that the men would agree. After marriage, the men would often go back on their word and take more wives, and the first wife could do nothing about it. Everyone with an interest in the whole Mormon scam should read her book: WIfe No. 19
If even half of it is true, it is hair-raising. And I believe all of it.

 

[why_me]

Ann Eliza Young states that yes, a woman could say “no” to plural marriage, and that the men would agree. After marriage, the men would often go back on their word and take more wives, and the first wife could do nothing about it. Everyone with an interest in the whole Mormon scam should read her book: WIfe No. 19
If even half of it is true, it is hair-raising. And I believe all of it.

I do believe that she was one of Brigham’s Utah wives. Right? I can’t be sure. I have no idea about her story but I can say with tongue in cheek that it may be difficult to keep one wife happy but when a person had as many wives as Brigham, there is bound to be just a little unhappiness among a couple of them. It is very human. A woman’s scorn can be terrible.

 

[why_me]

You wont get a straight (or apparently truthful) answer from him. Have a read of the other threads that he has posted in, he seems to contradict hmself a lot and give clever responses that dont really answer anything.

I believe that he has stated that he is a morman, but I cant remember which thread that was in.

Its kind of sad when a person acts like that.

Well, I am not a ‘mormon stooge’ who claims to be catholic. I was born catholic, joined the lds church as a teenager, and now I attend mass quite often when the situation permits. Most likely more than most catholics on this board. But I am not a mormon hater nor do I wish to write negative things about the lds church. This is not to say that I have nothing negative to write about some local wards that I have seen and participated in.

But by and large the lds church is a good church for people to be a part of. It is not an easy church to be a part of but a good one. It teaches a good moral code and believes in living the good life with christ at the center. Is it different from other christian churches? Yes, it is. But so what? Life is full of diversity and within christianity, the diversity is strong and vibrant.

But I have often thought that it would have been nice to be a fly on the wall when the action around the book of mormon took place. Who knows just what this fly would have seen.

 

[ibkc]

I do believe that she was one of Brigham’s Utah wives. Right? I can’t be sure. I have no idea about her story but I can say with tongue in cheek that it may be difficult to keep one wife happy but when a person had as many wives as Brigham, there is bound to be just a little unhappiness among a couple of them. It is very human. A woman’s scorn can be terrible.

Her book is not only a criticism of Brigham Young, it is a detailed expose of the entire early LDS system, which she was raised in. She knew nothing else until she was able to escape. She was quite the intelligent and independent woman of her time, a proto-feminist almost, and quite ill-suited for a life as some tyrant’s slave. You need to bother to read the book before dismissing her like this.

 

[why_me]

Her book is not only a criticism of Brigham Young, it is a detailed expose of the entire early LDS system, which she was raised in. She knew nothing else until she was able to escape. She was quite the intelligent and independent woman of her time, a proto-feminist almost, and quite ill-suited for a life as some tyrant’s slave. You need to bother to read the book before dismissing her like this.

Put her name into the google: eliza young. Then read the nytimes account of the divorce from the 1870’s. The thread is entitled: Brigham Young: application by ann eliza young for divorce and…

It makes interesting reading.

From my understanding of her, she married BY when she was quite young and with two children. Brigham was well into his 60’s and she was only in her 20’s. I believe that her first husband died. It seems that she wanted some cash from brigham and being almost 40 years younger wanted the good life and sought a divorce settlement. She asked for quite a bit of money. Then went on the road preaching her antimormonism to willing listeners, most likely for a little cash too. But I can’t be sure of this.

 

[ibkc]

Then went on the road preaching her antimormonism to willing listeners, most likely for a little cash too. But I can’t be sure of this.

You know, you could read her book and see what she had to say. The whole thing is right there on Google Books - I linked to it. If that’s too much, you can read Irving Wallace’s take on her story, which was called The 27th Wife. If even half of it is true, then the early LDS church was a pretty sick and evil institution.

 

[Jerusha]

ALSO during the course of these 24 months, away from home, living with strangers, they will suffer some of the nastiest invectives and abuse from people on the street and in going door-to-door. I recently saw a PBS special on Mormonism where a hidden cameral followed two all-American looking young guys who were in a big city… People would not talk to them, except for the jerks that would walk up to them and start swearing. They never stopped smiling.

Really, sociologically, this program is amazing - you take kids away from homes with active and strong family life (often with a lot of brothers and sisters) and send them apple-cheeked and green out into the non-Mormon world where they are treated TERRIBLY by most people and have doors slammed in their face. At the end of 24 months they return home, more often than not, affirming that THERE IS NO PLACE LIKE HOME.

Sociologically, the missionary program is quite effective in giving these young future leaders of the church a persecution complex. In fact, their persecutors are the very culture that sends them out.

 

[RC_Matt]

You bring up GREAT points Paul.

It should also be noted that a lot of these missionaires are 19-21 year olds who are away from their home on their “mission” for 24 months which Mormons are more than encouraged to go on. (Not quite forced, but you really DO NOT want to NOT do it…)

Yeah, and they’re given VERY little to live on and their housing is often substandard. I’ve heard horror stories about necessary medical attention being withheld. It kind of makes me wonder what the parents are thinking; pull the kid out of college and put him in harm’s way like that. When they return to their ward from the mission, they’re encouraged to get married right away and start a family; which can make it difficult or impossible to finish college. I go out of my way to treat them well, most of them been raised in this nonsense and don’t know any better – it’s not their fault. Unless they get nasty with me, which is almost never, other than to tell them that I am a practicing Catholic, I do not discuss religion with them. Similarly, I do not comment on the dubious nature of Mormonism; they’re at a vulnerable stage in life and I wouldn’t want to take away what is a very important psychological support system. I’m not that old, and we can always find other stuff to talk about. I do, however, try to stress the importance of finishing college before they yield to the ward pressure of getting married and starting a family; I give them examples of guys who could have been affluent professionals with bright futures, but instead now live hand-to-mouth working at dead-end menial jobs at Wal-Mart, Home Depot and the like.

I would encourage everybody to treat them similarly. Be pleasant with them, offer them water, let them use the bathroom, let them use your computer to check/send email, throw them a few bucks for pizza (especially if it’s near the end of the month). It’s not only the right thing to do, and the Christian thing to do, but it gives them a break in the action and, secondarily, exemplifies that Catholics are not really the spawn of the devil; you may plant a seed that will flourish later in life. Lots of people who bail from Mormonsim end-up as atheists; they get disgusted with Mormonism and assume all faiths are similar. I try to drop a hint that there are alternatives they can explore.

 

[why_me]

Sociologically, the missionary program is quite effective in giving these young future leaders of the church a persecution complex. In fact, their persecutors are the very culture that sends them out.

Not quite true. However, the missionary program does prepare future leaders. To my understanding many corporations recruit from Brigham Young University. They are not recruiting young adults with persecution complexes but they are recruiting for future potential.

 

[BartBurk]

Not quite true. However, the missionary program does prepare future leaders. To my understanding many corporations recruit from Brigham Young University. They are not recruiting young adults with persecution complexes but they are recruiting for future potential.

I am a returned missionary. I went to Venezuela. I met a lot of Catholics, especially charismatic Catholics, who sincerely loved Jesus. I believe my missionary experience in a Latin American country helped prepare me to join the Catholic Church later in life.

 

[Kristine1957]

Thanx I do feel the religion is flawed, I don’t wish to offend them by saying so. I’ve read so much in these forums that have confirmed my own research and feelings. I guess it comes down to wanting to belong after LDS church many people came up to welcome me I’ve been invited to many things and to be honest at the catholic church in 10 years no-one has ever done that. I go to mass alone stop for coffee after and have never been welcomed or approached by anyone. I promise I’m not hideous just shy.

Maybe you should join a bible study at the parish your in. I was **terrified **to meet other people in our parish and frankly it took everything I had to walk in that building and ask about a bible study program.

But, it was also the best thing I have ever done in my life, I was able to meet people and been informed of what is going on in our parish and now I’m invloved with many different activities. It just takes that first step.
As for the Mormon missionarys I would run as fast as you can in the other direction. They will try to hook you so fast your head will spin. My advise don’t get involved with the **wrong religion **just because you want to be included.

 

[why_me]

I am a returned missionary. I went to Venezuela. I met a lot of Catholics, especially charismatic Catholics, who sincerely loved Jesus. I believe my missionary experience in a Latin American country helped prepare me to join the Catholic Church later in life.

Nothing wrong with that. I think that it is great that your missionary experience as a mormon prepared you for a life that you feel brought you closer to god.

I know that there are some catholics that do not like the charismatic catholic movement. I believe that the Charismatics are still on the fringe. Also, the catholic church should be a church where people can worship together and not feel separated by personal tastes in the catholic service.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Yeah, and they’re given VERY little to live on and their housing is often substandard. I’ve heard horror stories about necessary medical attention being withheld. It kind of makes me wonder what the parents are thinking; pull the kid out of college and put him in harm’s way like that. When they return to their ward from the mission, they’re encouraged to get married right away and start a family; which can make it difficult or impossible to finish college. I go out of my way to treat them well, most of them been raised in this nonsense and don’t know any better – it’s not their fault. Unless they get nasty with me, which is almost never, other than to tell them that I am a practicing Catholic, I do not discuss religion with them. Similarly, I do not comment on the dubious nature of Mormonism; they’re at a vulnerable stage in life and I wouldn’t want to take away what is a very important psychological support system. I’m not that old, and we can always find other stuff to talk about. I do, however, try to stress the importance of finishing college before they yield to the ward pressure of getting married and starting a family; I give them examples of guys who could have been affluent professionals with bright futures, but instead now live hand-to-mouth working at dead-end menial jobs at Wal-Mart, Home Depot and the like.

I would encourage everybody to treat them similarly. Be pleasant with them, offer them water, let them use the bathroom, let them use your computer to check/send email, throw them a few bucks for pizza (especially if it’s near the end of the month). It’s not only the right thing to do, and the Christian thing to do, but it gives them a break in the action and, secondarily, exemplifies that Catholics are not really the spawn of the devil; you may plant a seed that will flourish later in life. Lots of people who bail from Mormonsim end-up as atheists; they get disgusted with Mormonism and assume all faiths are similar. I try to drop a hint that there are alternatives they can explore.

I agree. Even though I might not do anything above (not sure) there is no reason to be nasty to the missionaries. The OP mentioned explaining to them that they thought their faith was “far fetched.” There is no reason to get into that with the missionaries. Simply tell them that you are not interested, and they should leave you alone. Be polite, and don’t look for an argument.

 

[BartBurk]

Maybe you should join a bible study at the parish your in. I was **terrified **to meet other people in our parish and frankly it took everything I had to walk in that building and ask about a bible study program.

But, it was also the best thing I have ever done in my life, I was able to meet people and been informed of what is going on in our parish and now I’m invloved with many different activities. It just takes that first step.
As for the Mormon missionarys I would run as fast as you can in the other direction. They will try to hook you so fast your head will spin. My advise don’t get involved with the **wrong religion **just because you want to be included.

I have not really been able to make any connections in the parish since I became Catholic. Mostly, that may be because my wife is still Mormon. I go to soup suppers, etc. and am basically ignored! I guess that’s o.k. because I’m more interested in the truth than in a social club, but if you’re just looking for a great group to socialize with you’d probably become a Mormon. I’m still closer socially to the people in my wife’s ward than I am to people at the parish. Unfortunately, the LDS Church is completely false.