You can choose whether or not to believe any part of revealed truth. It’s your decision. As to salvation, take that up with our Lord in the judgment seat. I, for one, will not take a seat in it only to explain why I thought His mother was common or ordinary.
So it sounds like you really believe that this is going to be a topic of discussion, on that day, rather than"So tell me po18guy, what things did you do for my Son, during your walk on Earth?"Don’t we all have to face the judgement seat(not purgatory)?
Well, God chose Mary, an unknown teenager, from amongst all generations of women that would ever exist. What on earth could she possible have done in her short life to merit the carrying of God in Christ? Nothing is known about her whatsoever until the Angel Gabriel was sent from God’s presence to announce to her that she had found favor with God. This alone indicates a birthright of some sort. I choose to honor her, as I do with all of the Saints.
Well, and this is where some non-Catholics can get a little touchy, Mary was required to give flesh to Christ. She had to say “yes” to Gabriel before we were ever to have a Christ in the flesh. So, she is a necessary part of salvation history. She does not save, but, through her, we have salvation. She was with Him His entire life and at His death. He gave her a new Son while He was dying, so she would not be alone (John 19:26-27). Mary’s entire purpose was to bring Jesus to us, and since His resurrection, her entire purpose has been to lead us to Jesus. Since salvation history is a seamless garment; since all truth is one, as Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit are One, we cannot pick and choose which part of revealed truth to believe and to disbelieve. According to many Catholic converts (Marcus Grodi, Mark Shea and many others), Mary looks much bigger from outside the Church than she does from within. And, so it is. Where we might disagree is when someone separates Christ from His Church and its authority, and from the entire story of salvation history. I know that Church authority is a BIG DEAL for non-Catholics, but that is how the Church was founded by Christ and shall remain until He returns. Amen!po18guy: I have never indicated that Mary was common or ordinary; however, by the woeld’s standards, she would probably be considered as such! Mary was surely CHOSEN by God to bear the Saviour:thumbsup: No one can really say for certain, that anything was predestined from the dawn of time, but then"“all things are possible with God!” My contention, is that Our Saviour, yours and mine, along with all believers, did NOT command us to believe in His mother’s perpetual virginity, in order to see the Kingdom of God! All you have is the supposed teachings of the early church fathers! And I believe in Matthew 25:31-40, as far as doing good works in the Name of Jesus! Also, witnessing, evangelizing, feeding the poor; us, average Christians, me and you po18guy! So, Mary was very important in the plan of salvation(bearing and rearing the Saviour along with Joseph), but is not an element of salvation
Very poignant, very beautiful; very true. parts are, parts are debatable! In Christ, through God, we have salvation!
Throughout history, God has been setting His Plan in place, and Mary was a part of it; indeed! No mortal man can tell another that he is sepsrated from God, and that Christ can only be found in one church or another; but I have seen it in this forum, in my eight months here! The Ethiopian eunuch was out in the countryside, I guess, when he found Jesus, through Phillip! So, to tell people that if they don’t believe in Mary’s virginity, they are not going to Heaven, is wrong! God bless all my brothers in Christ:thumbsup:Thank you for the "history lesson, and the mild admonishment
Belief in Marian dogma has bled over into this thread from another similar thread. It started out trying to prove to hard-headed noncatholics, that Mary was indeed a perpetual virgin the, it morphed into a discussion about having to believe in it to be saved, when Jesus didn’t teach this, but man did, and does! And it is arrogant at best to tell people that not believing in Mary’s perpetual virginity, is rejection of the Gospel! Hate to break this to you, but you are not God, and neither are your priests, or your pope! You see, us lowly noncatholics serve the same B-I-G God that you do, and were saved by the same blood that you were! We just believe differently, and you have been separated from us
My bad. Catholics can react out of seemingly perpetual defense of the faith, and we get weary and weak. I did not mean to imply such.
Is not God eternal and outside of time? Are not all things present to Him at once? Compare the idea of eternal plans to Jesus’ parable of the vineyard and the owner’s son (Luke 20:9-19). If even the human property owner had contingency plans, how much more does our Lord have them? If He does not have an eternal plan, does that not make Him a random God?
However, Jesus revealed the perpetual virginity as an irreplaceable part of the Gospel truth. He taught us to seek and follow the truth. He gave a son (John) to Mary as He was dying on the cross, so that she would not be alone (John 19:26-27 - compare this with Luke 7:11, where He restored a widow’s only son to her). The virgin birth was not only the fulfillment of prophecy - Mary’s perpetual virginity was required to validate it. The only physical proof of Jesus’ virgin birth was if Mary remained ever virgin! If she would have had other children, the scoffers would have had even more evidence to accuse Jesus.
First, consider that they are not supposed, but rather real. They exist. And, lest we forget, we have the Gospel of Luke, though which we know of God’s plan by Divine revelation. As a matter of fact, the entire Gospel of Luke is the product of the Apostolic Tradition, since Luke witnessed none of it. He went to sources that were not always Apostolic (Mary) for much of his Gospel.
Yes! But, you realize that each of these is a work
However, it is faith, acting through love, which stands us in good stead before our Lord (Hebrews 10:24). That is the essence of Christianity - faith, hope and love, but the greatest is love! Greater than faith? Yes, says Jesus and Saint Paul (John 13:34-35 and 1 Corinthians 13:13).Well, getting back to God’s eternal plan for salvation, Mary was a crucial and required part of that plan. Her assent to Gabriel was absolutely needed so that we would ever see the Messiah in the flesh. Since all of salvation history is a seamless garment, Mary’s virginity remains part of it. Once we tear it out, the garment begins to unravel. Even reformer Jean Calvin said that those who doubted Mary’s perpetual virginity were “pigheaded”! And, as difficult as it is for us to believe in perpetual virginity, how much more difficult is belief in a virgin birth? The Holy Spirt, able to conceive Jesus in a virgin womb, certainly had the power to protect that womb for all time. We all know a maiden aunt. If that perpetual virginity can occur in this sex-soaked culture, how much more likely was it to Mary? Especially after a personal visit from Gabriel.(perpetual virginity)…is not an element of salvation
No one on earth has the authority to say that - and no one should. What we are saying is that Jesus founded a Church - that’s in scripture. He provided for His mother at His death - that’s in scripture. Jesus loved poor widows - that’s in scripture. Jesus would not leave the Apostles orphans - that’s in scripture. He promised the Holy Spirit to lead the Apostles into all truth - that’s in scripture. Just as the bible was revealed through members of the Church, the teachings on Mary’s virginity were revealed by members of the same church - via scripture and the Apostolic Tradition that produced both the Gospel of Luke as well as Acts. The Lord knew I was a doubter. In His mercy, has revealed this to me, and with His grace, He will reveal it also to you, who are more worthy than I.
“For as you have done for the least of these, you have done for me.”-Jesus, to His disciples. We are saved by God’s grace, through faith, to do those good works that He has pepared for us. We were made to worship(thank you Chris Tomlin), and we were made to serve(Mark 10:45). Mary was a beautiful woman, even though by those days standards, she was a peasant girl. Her place in Christian historywill be eternally remembered as one of God’s most faithful and willing servants! And, yes, love is the greatest of all, for without love, we are nothing!I had edited my original response, but the dreaded 20 minute edit window closed on me. So, here it is:My bad. Catholics can react out of seemingly perpetual defense of the faith, and we get weary and weak. I did not mean to imply such. Is not God eternal and outside of time? Are not all things present to Him at once? Compare the idea of eternal plans to Jesus’ parable of the vineyard and the owner’s son (Luke 20:9-19). If even the human property owner had contingency plans, how much more does our Lord have them? If He does not have an eternal plan, does that not make Him a random God?However, Jesus revealed the perpetual virginity as an irreplaceable part of the Gospel truth. He taught us to seek and follow the truth. He gave a son (John) to Mary as He was dying on the cross, so that she would not be alone (John 19:26-27 - compare this with Luke 7:11, where He restored a widow’s only son to her). The virgin birth was not only the fulfillment of prophecy - Mary’s perpetual virginity was required to validate it. The only physical proof of Jesus’ virgin birth was if Mary remained ever virgin! If she would have had other children, the scoffers would have had even more evidence to accuse Jesus. First, consider that they are not supposed, but rather real. They exist. And, lest we forget, we have the Gospel of Luke, though which we know of God’s plan by Divine revelation. As a matter of fact, the entire Gospel of Luke is the product of the Apostolic Tradition, since Luke witnessed none of it. He went to sources that were not always Apostolic (Mary) for much of his Gospel. [Yes! But, you realize that each of these is a work
Many Catholic converts (Marcus Grodi, Mark Shea and others) tell us that Mary looks so much larger from outside the Church than from within. And, so it is. Mary was not just a readily available utensil, because God could raise up a savior from stones! But, He chose Mary.
Christ’s peace be with you.
Amen! And, if Mary was a beautiful woman, she still is - she is beautiful in Heaven. If any mere mortal is in Heaven, who more likely than the humble heart who was chosen by God to bear His Son? It has been a pleasure, and I understand your trepidation.“For as you have done for the least of these, you have done for me.”-Jesus, to His disciples. We are saved by God’s grace, through faith, to do those good works that He has pepared for us. We were made to worship(thank you Chris Tomlin), and we were made to serve(Mark 10:45). Mary was a beautiful woman, even though by those days standards, she was a peasant girl. Her place in Christian historywill be eternally remembered as one of God’s most faithful and willing servants! And, yes, love is the greatest of all, for without love, we are nothing!
I would say that the situation is a little murkier than that.
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And how very true, that there is a POSSIBILITY that catholicism is true
I will take even that concession. One step at a time.
If Catholicism is not true, you might as well burn your bible.]
I have never claimed invincible ignorance about anything, let alone the catholic church
Note to 1beleevr-
Randy, sometimes my use of one liners gets the better of me! I am waiting for a bible Christian - any one at all, to show me the stone tablet which contains the Sacred Table of Contents.
Do you understand now? (Since I see others have respondedMaria G: I’m still trying to figure that one out; Mary and the new Ark
)Ever notice that non-Catholics NEVER attempt to discredit this?