Need tips for a debate with wife

[Ilkka]

Our lives here are temporary so the promise of a better place (heaven) is very comforting to me. Perhaps you could work your conversation with your wife along those lines.

I have. She tells me that it is not enough to help her have faith. If she didn’t know the truth she would always have this nagging thought that she is only doing it to soothe herself.

 

[Ilkka]

Resurrection cannot be supported by any reason. We must have faith that it happened, that it occurred as reported in the Gospels.

Yes, and the reason we have faith in that is that there is a lot of evidence supporting the Gospel accounts. For one, how the Apostles acted after the resurrection is quite telling. No one would be ready to die for professing faith in something they are not sure of. It is quite clear that the martyred Apostles and their followers knew that Jesus was raised from the dead. Resurrection itself cannot be explained by scientific knowledge but there are reasons behind believing God exists so then it would only be reasonable to believe He can also raise people from the dead, right?

We also require blind faith to know Jesus is God and not just a mortal man. We do not know this except in our hearts.

Clearly the Apostles thought He was God. Church history proves that the first Christians believed Jesus is God. We have many reasons to believe that the Gospel accounts are true and that the Church has the godly authority of infallibly defining doctrine. When we have established these certain things as reasonable beliefs, we can trust other beliefs based on them. And that is not blind faith.

Think about doubting Thomas. Jesus didn’t refuse to let him have reasonable faith. Thomas got to touch Jesus’ resurrected body and this way he had a reason to believe Jesus had really risen.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

For one, how the Apostles acted after the resurrection is quite telling. No one would be ready to die for professing faith in something they are not sure of.

ah but the only evidence is written in Sacred Scripture. We must have faith to believe in those accounts. They were written over 2000 years ago , authors summized but argued about, Gospel accounts differ and sometimes contradict each other in different details in different books. Muslims die and become martyrs for their religion, the Japanese Kamkaze pilots died for a patriotic cause in WWII .

Have you ever seen anyone raised from the dead? If not, you must have faith to believe this has happened.

Clearly the Apostles thought He was God.

For several hundred years this was a hot topic of conversation, who was Jesus, what was His role, was Jesus God, man, both, or something one of the heresies addressed.

Think about doubting Thomas. Jesus didn’t refuse to let him have reasonable faith. Thomas got to touch Jesus’ resurrected body and this way he had a reason to believe Jesus had really risen.

Thomas would not believe until he saw and touched the wounds of Jesus. We cannot, yet we have blind faith to believe, that is my point. Some things cannot be debated with logic because too many logical holes can be teased out. If I were agnostic or atheist, I would be asking, what texts outside Sacred Scripture definitely talk of Jesus
But let me ask you this

Do you love God?

 

[Ilkka]

ah but the only evidence is written in Sacred Scripture

Well, no. There are jewish accounts which also talk about Yeshua Nazarene and the effect He had on people during His time.

These same jewish accounts also mention the claim that the body of Jesus was stolen from the tomb by the Apostles. The jews had every reason to deny Jesus’ existence, His crucifixion, burial and disappearance from the tomb. The fact that they deny none of these but only claim the manner of which the body disappeared from the tomb is different from the Gospel accounts actually proves that they certainly believed even when they had every good reason not to.

Then again, we know that Peter was crucified for his public profession of faith. Several others were also killed. Had they not seen Jesus resurrected, they wouldn’t have died for professing faith in Him (or they were all suicidal lunatics).

The life and resurrection of Jesus also matches with many OT prophesies. These also make it reasonable to believe Jesus truly is Christ and that He is truly risen.

authors summized but argued about, Gospel accounts differ and sometimes contradict each other in different details in different books

Yes and many historians and theologians actually see this as proof of authenticity. They had to memorize what had happened and write it down long after. If the events never took place and the Apostles simply gathered together to agree what they should write down, the Gospels would be very identical to each other. But we see that they are written by people from different walks of life and each evangelist puts weight on different events and things said. The other possibility is that they all wrote them separate from each other (as truly happened) and only from memory. Had the story been a forgery, they couldn’t have remembered such a long and detailed biography on their own without extreme contradictions. Of those there are none in the Gospels.

Muslims die and become martyrs for their religion, the Japanese Kamkaze pilots died for a patriotic cause in WWII .

Yes because they all believe in the cause. Had Jesus died and never resurrected as He promised beforehand, the Apostles would’ve simply lost all hope for the cause. Only a lunatic would be willing to die for a fairytale they know to be false.

 

[Ilkka]

For several hundred years this was a hot topic of conversation, who was Jesus, what was His role, was Jesus God, man, both, or something one of the heresies addressed.

Conversations don’t itself prove there really is a controversy. The Apostles believed in the Trinity and that Jesus is the Son of God and divine Himself. The heretics claimed authentic Apostles to be in the wrong and that’s why Paul writes in many of his letters warnings concerning these false apostles.

Thomas would not believe until he saw and touched the wounds of Jesus. We cannot, yet we have blind faith to believe, that is my point.

Yes but we have other good reasons to believe what we believe.

Some things cannot be debated with logic because too many logical holes can be teased out.

I’m sorry but that just sounds like an excuse to not put one’s faith to the test.

Do you love God?

Why else would I defend the faith? We are instructed to defend our faith with reason.

 

[Ilkka]

Btw, just to put it out there, I thought I should quote the CCC:

1. What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”. So “that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit.” Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.

1. Faith and science: “Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” […]

1. Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins.The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason, even if this knowledge is often obscured and disfigured by error. This is why faith comes to confirm and enlighten reason in the correct understanding of this truth: “By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.”

 

[Ilkka]

Have you ever seen anyone raised from the dead? If not, you must have faith to believe this has happened.

Do you believe in spherical Earth? Have you ever seen the Earth from space? If not, by your own logic, you must have blind faith to believe this is the case.

I argue that faith is necessary but that it is always accompanied and supported by reason.

 

[C.Ray]

Whenever I debate with my wife, I always end up regretting it. I always lose!

 

[Ilkka]

I just got to read your message. This is a very good POV that I will give thought to.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Well, no. There are jewish accounts which also talk about Yeshua Nazarene and the effect He had on people during His time.

No, there is one or two sketchy , could be, accounts of Jesus himself that are not verified.

Then again, we know that Peter was crucified for his public profession of faith.

This was because of the fire that Nero blamed on the Christians. That is why it is thought a few of the Apostles were martyred. This is still not an absolute verifiable historical account that Jesus is God and lived a man and was crucified and resurrected.

You have not answered my question

Do you love God?

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Do you believe in spherical Earth? Have you ever seen the Earth from space? If not, by your own logic, you must have blind faith to believe this is the case.

I argue that faith is necessary but that it is always accompanied and supported by reason.

The earth is visibly round, we can see its evidence in its roundness from space and from earth, physically.

Basic physics from earth tells us it is round.

Again Do you love God?

 

[Ilkka]

Well, the historicity of Jesus Christ is better confirmed than that of many other famous figures who we know to have existed, one of them being Julius Caesar.

But at this point I’m no longer willing to continue this discussion with you. I would only like to point out the impressive amount of things you have said to undermine faith in Jesus Christ. I would refer you to take another look at the quotes from CCC that I posted earlier. I see you haven’t answered that at all. There it is clearly stated that Catholic faith is not blind faith but is supported by reason, however it is borne of God and not reason.

Again Do you love God?

This question has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Call me evasive, I don’t care. This is not something that is your business.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

This question has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Call me evasive, I don’t care. This is not something that is your business.

It has everything to do with the topic at hand which is faith, blind faith. I wont call you evasive, why would I, but this is one of the best arguments for blind faith I have ever heard.

Bear with me as I explain, for the sake of those reading along.
A girl is preparing for an arranged marriage, she has never met her husband to be, but has known of him since childhood. It is the 1600s and an arrangement to strengthen countries and alliances between two very Catholic countries.

This girl asks is it possible to love a man she has never met. She feels she already loves him deeply. She has heard all about her betrothed her entire life and read some letters he has written to her and accepted gifts.

The answer is

You love God and you have never met him. So it is entirely possible to love a man you are betrothed to that you have never met.

For us that love God, we have never met God, yet love him with all our hearts. The Shema states in its first line 'love the Lord your God with all your heart , soul and strength."

We who love God, love that we have never met but our love is built on faith, blind faith.

Well, the historicity of Jesus Christ is better confirmed than that of many other famous figures who we know to have existed, one of them being Julius Caesar.

Actually the historicity of the Roman Emperors is there in art and in writing.

I would only like to point out the impressive amount of things you have said to undermine faith in Jesus Christ.

In disagreeing with you that we can and do have blind faith and require faith to that degree to follow God and leave our will behind, this is how you respond. It tells me you have not considered my responses at all, nor even read them correctly.
There is not one thing I have written that doubts or questions faith in Jesus Christ. I have taken you to task on historical accounts outside the Gospels. If you were conversant you would have thrown back the questionable Josephus entry, because that is about all we have. We have accounts of Christians and how they lived their lives from people like Pliny and various governors sent to quell Christian unrest.
We have the notable accounts of Nero who blamed Christians for the burning of Rome, and then promptly started one of the notorious persecutions of Christians.
The evidence for Pontius Pilate as a historic figure was recently physically unearthed in an inscription and one or two other artefacts. That was pretty exciting because before that, there was pretty much zero historical evidence outside the Gospels for his existence either.

 

[Ilkka]

Ok, I see where you’re coming from. It seems like we have a misunderstanding of what blind faith is. To me, blind faith is believing in something that is not supported by anything other than faith itself. That’s why I posted the CCC quotes to show that official Church teaching is not in favor of blind faith but holds facts, external to faith itself, to be a support for the faith we have. That’s why apology exists and the finding of historical evidence for Pontius Pilate is one of these things as well.

My main goal throughout this discussion was to point out that our faith is not based on imaginary tales that cannot be supported and defended. Surely, there are always gaps that require faith to get over. That is gaps as in things we cannot explain or yet understand. But then again, any belief has gaps if one really looks for them. Belief in anything else other than the existence of one’s own mind requires at least some amount of faith and if this is what you meant, fair enough.

 

[po18guy]

After almost 40 years of wedded bliss, I must tell you that I am still shooting blanks in debates, er, I mean discussions.

 

[Ilkka]

I never denied loving God. Refusing to answer is not the same as denial, duh.

 

[Odilon]

I don’t think there is anything you can do to help her. She will either get it on her own at some point or she won’t.

 

[Ilkka]

People that love God would never refuse to admit that they love God.

Are you saying that St. Peter didn’t love God?

 

[Willing_Spirit]

While faith can be reasoned, it can’t be proved. That said, here are arguments that make sense to me:

1. We live in a natural world where something can’t come from nothing. It seems reasonable that it would take something supernatural that isn’t bound by nature for there to be anything at all.
2. The fact that we are able to observe such order in nature and find scientific explanations suggests design. The observance of things like fractals and the Fibonacci sequence everywhere seems odd if existence is random.
3. Our own nature that is so unique from every other creature is still unexplained. Our species experienced a “Great Leap Forward” in evolution that no others did. It seems God made us special with freewill, and has given us an interest to explore and understand all of His creation. We have endeavors beyond just surviving.
4. After the Resurrection, people died horrific deaths to preach and practice the faith. The resurrection can’t be proved, but the people’s lives can be. Why would so many people, living ordinary lives, leave their families and their wealth, and ignore their Jewish leaders to follow a philosopher and abandon the criminal at His crucifixion, but still decide to live His words to their own brutal deaths, if there were no miracles and resurrection, or anything to validate His promises?
5. Today there are still miracles, that even experts/doctors experience and can’t explain.

 

[Ilkka]

You get it!