Nelson Mandela has died

[Claire091166]

Amen to that No one is perfect anyway. How many of us can claim to have endured unjustified imprisonment for nearly thirty years because we dared stand up to a racist regime which denied people basic human rights based upon the colour of their skin? For his courage and conviction on behalf of his oppressed people, he deserves full respect and praise. His legendary capacity to forgive and hold no ill will towards his tormentors, is a striding example of Christian grace. As a human being made in the image of God he likewise deserves the courtesy of human kindness now that he has passed from this world, as everyone does no matter what they believed.

That doesn’t mean we gloss over his faults. Nonetheless, they need not be mentioned so soon after his death when we should be committing him to the mercy of God.

May he rest in peace for eternity.

Brilliantly said.

His autobio, Long Walk to Freedom’s equally brilliant and filled with humorous anecdotes. I remember him saying that the kind of bread one received was determined by their skin color: Black prisoners received wheat bread and white prisoners got white bread! This was so ridiculous I could hardly believe it, but regardless:

Nelson Mandela, Rest in Peace!
Nkosi Sikelele Africa!
God Bless Africa!

 

[VivienneJ]

According to some news reports, at his trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence. Personally, I am opposed to terrorism and bombings in public places, since these can maim or even kill innocent children who are too small and inexperienced to influence the politics of their country.

It is very easy to search the internet and find all sorts of information on any public (and many private) citizen.

It is very easy to condemn the actions of public people.

Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for 27 years. Soon after his release he became President of the country. He could have unleashed a backlash of bloodshed and hatred. Instead he instituted a means for reconciliation to take place, brought in a peaceful (and imperfect) new South Africa. At a time when many of us were fearfully expecting even more violence, we were surprised by the events.

Yes, he did, after many years of only supporting peaceful protest, move to an approach of violence. When he held the highest power in the land, peace rather than violence became his most important focus.

Look up his actions following the murder of Chris Hani, another event that many of us feared would be an action that unleashed yet more violence, and condemn him outright for being a terrorist.

Like all of us, Nelson Mandela did good and bad deeds. He led South Africa through a transition that could have destroyed the country. For that alone he does not deserve outright condemnation.

One opinion piece I found that encourages a balanced view on this statesman can be read in full here
This is worth noting:

Nelson Mandela was imperfect and flawed as all humans are, he was not a saint, he did not live a perfect life. But he was far from a devil, from an evil terrorist who desired only to kill. Apartheid South Africa showed some of the very worst a state could become, some of the most appalling ways we can treat our fellow man. Mandlea (sic) showed true bravery in standing up for rights we today take for granted as self evident. That his fight was imperfect will tarnish him forever in the eyes of his detractors. While he was no angel he did what he could, in an impossible situation, to make life better for those who were crushed under the heel of an oppressive state. So maybe it is time to do away with the extreme labels, to recognise that Mandela was flawed like any of us, and fighting in a situation few of us can imagine. And while he may not have achieved perfection, he did what he saw was right at a time when almost every option would have horrific consequences. Rather than demand perfection and, due to a lack of it, refuse to even consider any positives maybe we should just applaud one man who stood up for what he saw as right and accept that in life good comes with bad

Rest in Peace, Tata Madiba. I will be praying for the repose of your soul.

 

[Trebor135]

According to some news reports, at his trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence. Personally, I am opposed to terrorism and bombings in public places, since these can maim or even kill innocent children who are too small and inexperienced to influence the politics of their country.

The original claim, though, was that Mandela was involved in the practice of necklacing, where a burning car tire is placed around the neck of a black person seen by members of his oppressed community as a collaborator with the apartheid regime.

And if Mandela pled guilty to anything, surely we can’t take that alone as evidence of his culpability: this step may have been part of a plea bargain or some other deal. He was, after all, facing down an authoritarian state ready to crush dissent.

 

[VivienneJ]

Rest in peace, Nelson Mandela.

Do we have evidence that he was involved in such violence?

The original claim, though, was that Mandela was involved in the practice of necklacing, where a burning car tire is placed around the neck of a black person seen by members of his oppressed community as a collaborator with the apartheid regime.

And if Mandela pled guilty to anything, surely we can’t take that alone as evidence of his culpability: this step may have been part of a plea bargain or some other deal. He was, after all, facing down an authoritarian state ready to crush dissent.

I very much doubt that Madiba personally participated in any ‘necklacing’. It is not even clear to what extent this was an action approved by Umkhonto we Sizwe, that is, by those at the very top of the organisation.

If he bears any culpability for this horrible torture, as well as any culpability for changes in abortion laws, and in allowing homosexual marriage to be legalised in South Africa then the duty to pray for the repose of his soul surely becomes all the greater?

As Vouthon says here:

Amen to that No one is perfect anyway. How many of us can claim to have endured unjustified imprisonment for nearly thirty years because we dared stand up to a racist regime which denied people basic human rights based upon the colour of their skin? For his courage and conviction on behalf of his oppressed people, he deserves full respect and praise. His legendary capacity to forgive and hold no ill will towards his tormentors, is a striding example of Christian grace. As a human being made in the image of God he likewise deserves the courtesy of human kindness now that he has passed from this world, as everyone does no matter what they believed.

That doesn’t mean we gloss over his faults. Nonetheless, they need not be mentioned so soon after his death when we should be committing him to the mercy of God.

May he rest in peace for eternity.

In fact, Nelson Mandela himself would have been quick to deny his lack of faults. He was very aware that he was, like the rest of us, an imperfect human being simply doing his best. The fact that there are some respects in which his best is more than many of us can aspire to reinforces the claims of his being a great statesman and the right person to move the country from a dreadful form of government to a fairer one.

 

[Geist]

Whenever a Communist dies the media goes into a paroxysmal overdrive waxing poetic about them. Gonna be a long weekend.

 

[CNA_News]

Vatican City, Dec 6, 2013 / 05:58 am (CNA/EWTN News).- In wake of the passing of Nelson Mandela, spokesman for South Africa’s Episcopal Conference lauded his political achievements, stating that he will be remembered most for his work in fostering unity.

The political legacy of Mandela can be described in “one word: reconciliation,” Fr. Similo Mngadi told CNA in a Dec. 6 interview.

“He made you feel human, and want to be human.”

Nelson Mandela, the South African revolutionary who headed the country’s anti-apartheid movement, fighting to replace it with a multiracial democracy, died at the age of 95 in his Johannesburg home after a long battle with illness.

Regarding the politician’s Dec. 5 passing, Fr. Mngadi, spokesman for the South African Episcopal Conference, explained that many in South Africa are experiencing “mixed feelings,” because although Mandela had been suffering various health problems the last few years, “he was an icon for everybody.”

He was “good for reconciliation,” observed the spokesman, reflecting that he “put everyone together,” and that his work was a “point of cohesion” for the division in the country.
 
South Africa’s apartheid originally developed after the Second World War, and was strictly enforced by the country’s National Party governments, who implemented the movement as a means of racial segregation, and under which the rights of most blacks were seriously restricted.

After the 1994 overthrow of the apartheid, Mandela, who had previously been imprisoned for 27 years due to his opposition to the government, was elected as South Africa’s first black president, and worked tirelessly to dismantle the remaining legacy of the apartheid until the end of his term in 1999.

During his time in office Mandela collaborated closely with Church officials in overcoming racial tensions, Fr. Mngadi recalled, highlighting how he continued to work alongside South Africa’s current cardinal until his death.

The Episcopal Conference of South Africa offered Mass for the political icon this morning at 8:30, the spokesman noted, stating that a special Mass will be held at 1p.m. in Capetown’s Our Lady of the Flight to Egypt’s cathedral in his honor.

feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/catholicnewsagency/dailynews?d=yIl2AUoC8zA
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/catholicnewsagency/dailynews/~4/kU5S_LYpfS0

Full article…

 

[Robert_Bay]

The charity level on this thread needs improving

 

[Thinking10]

Whether you think Mandela was great or not is up to you, but I would do some independent research into Mandela’s past, South Africa’s Past, and South Africa’s present before forming an opinion about him. There seems to be quite a difference between who Mandela actually was, and who the media depicts him as. Many facts about South Africa, and the current state of the country are not reported in the media.

 

[Geist]

This.

When the media lauds an individual, you can bet your life there’s a reason to be wary of them.

 

[Claire091166]

I am sure the critics would have said the same about Jesus Christ upon his death:

“look how many women started cheating because he didn’t let us stone that adultress!”
“Prostitution increased because he spoke to prostitutes!”
“Tons of babies were murdered because he didn’t stand up to Rome!”
“He sanctioned homosexuality because he didn’t speak up!”

And on, and on.

 

[Birdpreacher]

This.

When the media lauds an individual, you can bet your life there’s a reason to be wary of them.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Claire091166:

I am sure the critics would have said the same about Jesus Christ upon his death:

“look how many women started cheating because he didn’t let us stone that adultress!”
“Prostitution increased because he spoke to prostitutes!”
“Tons of babies were murdered because he didn’t stand up to Rome!”
“He sanctioned homosexuality because he didn’t speak up!”

And on, and on.

The difference of course being that Mandela actually did sanction homosexuality and abortion. You can laud the guy for his accomplishments without pretending that facts don’t exist. I love Ronald Reagan but I’m not going to pretend he didn’t divorce Jane Wyman or married Nancy who is into a bunch of a crazy Astrology garbage.

Let’s stop acting like common positions that people have taken in their public life are somehow part of digging into their past as though they weren’t proud of those positions and everyone didn’t already know them. I wouldn’t say Mandela’s opposition to apartheid was somehow digging into his past to unearth seedy details either. Everyone knows that. He wasn’t embarrassed by his positions and neither should anyone be who respects him after his death.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[Thinking10]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks

The South African farming community has suffered from attacks for many years. According to interviews by apprehended suspects these attacks are a way for black people to express their anger for the many years they were oppressed by the whites.[1] The majority of the attackers have been young blacks, and the majority of the victims have been Afrikaner farmers, with claims of death tolls of more than 4,000 cited in the national and international media.[2][3] While the government describes the attacks as simply part of the bigger picture of crime in South Africa, white people point to brutal attacks and incidents involving self-declared anti-white motivations as evidence of a campaign to drive them off their land.[4]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks. The disbandment of the Commandos has been linked to the escalating level of farm attacks.[5] In 2010, the issue garnered greater international attention in light of the murder of the far-right political figure Eugène Terre’Blanche on his farm.[6]

nytimes.com/1997/05/13/world/party-led-by-mandela-now-owns-up-to-atrocities.html

Party Led By Mandela Now Owns Up To Atrocities

South Africa’s governing party admitted today that it used torture, executions, and land mines during its fight against apartheid, opening a new chapter in this country’s efforts to come to terms with its past.

Senior officials of the African National Congress also said they could have done far more to stop the gruesome practice in the black townships of ‘‘necklacing’’ people suspected of cooperating with the South African security forces. Such people were pinned inside a car tire, doused in gasoline, set on fire and left to die.

 

[Thinking10]

cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/07/01/mandela.watch/

CNN July 2, 2008

Mandela off U.S. terrorism watch list

southafricaproject.info/remembering_the_church_street_bombing.html

Remembering The Church Street Bomb, Pretoria

The Church Street attack on May 20, 1983 killed 19 and injured more than 200 people when a car with 40kg of explosives was detonated outside the SAAF headquarters. Two MK cadres, who were in the car at the time, were also killed because the bomb exploded two minutes early. A huge pall of smoke rose hundreds of feet into the air as debris and bodies were strewn around the scene of the explosion. It exploded at the height of the city’s rush-hour as hundreds of people were leaving work for the weekend. Glass and metal were catapulted into the air as shop-fronts and windows were blown out. Many passers-by had limbs amputated by the flying debris. Others bled to death.

In his book “Long Walk to Freedom”, Nelson Mandela wrote that as a leading member of the ANC’s executive committee, he had “personally signed off” in approving these acts of terrorism, the pictures and details of which follow below. This is the horror which Mandela had “signed off” for while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism after the Rivonia trial. The late SA president PW Botha told Mandela in 1985 that he could be a free man as long as he did just one thing : ‘publicly renounce violence’. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser Pres FW de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line ? Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced the use of violence to further the ‘cause of freedom’.

Nelson Mandela & the Church Street Bombing

ancgenocide.blogspot.com/2008/04/nelson-mandela-church-street-bombing.html

Here are two photos showing the Church Street bombing. As mentioned before, in his so-called book,” Long Walk to Freedom”, Mandela says that he “signed off” with this act of terrorism. People should take a look at what Mandela “signed off” with while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism! President P.W. Botha told Mandela way back in 1985, that he could be a free man as long as he did one thing: Publicly renounce violence. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser F.W. de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line is that Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced violence - and we should never forget that.

 

[Birdpreacher]

Mandela on his outlook on violent tactics prior to his arrest and imprisonment:
"IN PLANNING the direction and form that MK would take, we considered four types of violent activities: sabotage, guerrilla warfare, terrorism, and open revolution. For a small and fledgling army, open revolution was inconceivable. Terrorism inevitably reflected poorly on those who used it, undermining any public support it might otherwise garner. Guerrilla warfare was a possibility, but since the ANC had been reluctant to embrace violence at all, it made sense to start with the form of violence that inflicted the least harm against individuals: sabotage.

Because it did not involve loss of life it offered the best hope for reconciliation among the races afterward. We did not want to start a blood feud between white and black. Animosity between Afrikaner and Englishman was still sharp fifty years after the Anglo-Boer War; what would race relations be like between white and black if we provoked a civil war? Sabotage had the added virtue of requiring the least manpower.

Our strategy was to make selective forays against military installations, power plants, telephone lines, and transportation links; targets that would not only hamper the military effectiveness of the state, but frighten National Party supporters, scare away foreign capital, and weaken the economy. This we hoped would bring the government to the bargaining table. Strict instructions were given to members of MK that we would countenance no loss of life. But if sabotage did not produce the results we wanted, we were prepared to move on to the next stage: guerrilla warfare and terrorism."
Source: Mandela’s autobiography, “A Long Walk to Freedom”

Full text: archive.org/stream/LongWalkToFreedom/PBI3231_djvu.txt

 

[seekerz]

cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/07/01/mandela.watch/

CNN July 2, 2008

Mandela off U.S. terrorism watch list

southafricaproject.info/remembering_the_church_street_bombing.html

Remembering The Church Street Bomb, Pretoria

The Church Street attack on May 20, 1983 killed 19 and injured more than 200 people when a car with 40kg of explosives was detonated outside the SAAF headquarters. Two MK cadres, who were in the car at the time, were also killed because the bomb exploded two minutes early. A huge pall of smoke rose hundreds of feet into the air as debris and bodies were strewn around the scene of the explosion. It exploded at the height of the city’s rush-hour as hundreds of people were leaving work for the weekend. Glass and metal were catapulted into the air as shop-fronts and windows were blown out. Many passers-by had limbs amputated by the flying debris. Others bled to death.

In his book “Long Walk to Freedom”, Nelson Mandela wrote that as a leading member of the ANC’s executive committee, he had “personally signed off” in approving these acts of terrorism, the pictures and details of which follow below. This is the horror which Mandela had “signed off” for while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism after the Rivonia trial. The late SA president PW Botha told Mandela in 1985 that he could be a free man as long as he did just one thing : ‘publicly renounce violence’. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser Pres FW de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line ? Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced the use of violence to further the ‘cause of freedom’.

Nelson Mandela & the Church Street Bombing

ancgenocide.blogspot.com/2008/04/nelson-mandela-church-street-bombing.html

Here are two photos showing the Church Street bombing. As mentioned before, in his so-called book,” Long Walk to Freedom”, Mandela says that he “signed off” with this act of terrorism. People should take a look at what Mandela “signed off” with while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism! President P.W. Botha told Mandela way back in 1985, that he could be a free man as long as he did one thing: Publicly renounce violence. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser F.W. de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line is that Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced violence - and we should never forget that.

In most cultures I am familiar with, people refrain from speaking ill of the dead if only because they are not here to defend themselves. Mandela never claimed to be perfect.

Yes he supported/used violence to defend himself and his people from the some of the most obscene violence ever used by a modern government against its own citizens. In case you are unaware, that included school kids who were frequently the ones protesting in the streets. Today I know of many people who are armed to the teeth and quite ready to ‘defend themselves’ with deadly force from unarmed people knocking on their doors or walking in their neighborhoods…

This man FORGAVE eventually, but I have found that in the hours since his death, people who would avenge a minor slight to the umpteenth generation (and STILL carry a grudge after they have had their pound of flesh) are queuing up on news sites’ comments pages to sit in judgment on him. If that’s not the spirit of Westboro I don’t know what is.

 

[Thinking10]

This man FORGAVE eventually, but I have found that in the hours since his death, people who would avenge a minor slight to the umpteenth generation (and STILL carry a grudge after they have had their pound of flesh) are queuing up on news sites’ comments pages to sit in judgment on him. If that’s not the spirit of Westboro I don’t know what is.

Search “Red October South Africa.” I don’t know that whites are being treated fairly since Mandela took over.

redoctober.co.za/genocide-of-the-boer-in-south-africa/#more-678

"I am, however writing this piece to BEG people from all over the world to give the same kind of attention, if not more, to another, even more horrific and pressing disaster facing South Africa! I refuse to believe that we live in a world where HUMAN life is less valued than that of animals and yet, it seems to be the case when it comes to getting the world to sit up and take notice of the fact that the WHITE BOER PEOPLE of South Africa are literally ALSO on the brink of extinction!

More than 4 000 White Farmers (Boers) have been murdered in Brutal Farm Attacks and that number increases daily and thousands more “Boers” are being murdered in our Cities for no apparent reason other than that they are WHITE!

Please, do not think for even a second, that I am exaggerating! Here are the FACTS!

In 1991 there were 5.6 Million Whites in South Africa. Today we are less than 4.3 Million! …and of the 100 000 commercial farmers in South Africa, only 29 000 are left!

We have been placed on level 6 of a possible 8, by Genocide Watch, an International organization that monitors, not only the number of people that are being brutally murdered in Race driven killings, but the political and socio-economic environment in which these people find themselves. "

 

[JackyB]

Whether you think Mandela was great or not is up to you, but I would do some independent research into Mandela’s past, South Africa’s Past, and South Africa’s present before forming an opinion about him. There seems to be quite a difference between who Mandela actually was, and who the media depicts him as. Many facts about South Africa, and the current state of the country are not reported in the media.

I agree, especially as in the Daily Telegraph, the chief political commentator has a piece written, headlined as “Few human beings can be compared to Jesus Christ. Nelson Mandela was one”.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100249502/few-human-beings-can-be-compared-to-jesus-christ-nelson-mandela-was-one/

 

[seekerz]

Search “Red October South Africa.” I don’t know that whites are being treated fairly since Mandela took over.

redoctober.co.za/genocide-of-the-boer-in-south-africa/#more-678

"I am, however writing this piece to BEG people from all over the world to give the same kind of attention, if not more, to another, even more horrific and pressing disaster facing South Africa! I refuse to believe that we live in a world where HUMAN life is less valued than that of animals and yet, it seems to be the case when it comes to getting the world to sit up and take notice of the fact that the WHITE BOER PEOPLE of South Africa are literally ALSO on the brink of extinction!

More than 4 000 White Farmers (Boers) have been murdered in Brutal Farm Attacks and that number increases daily and thousands more “Boers” are being murdered in our Cities for no apparent reason other than that they are WHITE!

Please, do not think for even a second, that I am exagogerating! Here are the FACTS!

In 1991 there were 5.6 Million Whites in South Africa. Today we are less than 4.3 Million! …and of the 100 000 commercial farmers in South Africa, only 29 000 are left!

We have been placed on level 6 of a possible 8, by Genocide Watch, an International organization that monitors, not only the number of people that are being brutally murdered in Race driven killings, but the political and socio-economic environment in which these people find themselves. "

If you have concerns about genocide in S.A. I’m sure you’d find posters ready to engage in robust discussion on a thread created for that purpose.

 

[Seamus_L]

If people want to say prayers for his soul I think that is wonderful. Is there anyone unworthy of prayers ? At the same time though, a few people are speaking out against putting Nelson Mandela on a pedestal (something even FOX News seems to be doing) because afterall, just as there are photos online of Mr Mandela meeting with the Pope, there are also photos of him giving a clenched fist salute with a hammer and sickle flag in the background.