Nelson Mandela has died

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Hypocritical I agree, to consider Mandela’s supposed ‘violence’ in some sort of monocular vacuum that completely ignores the historical fact of apartheid - an obscene and insidiously evil system against which I know not a single American who would consider self defense a morally unjustifiable response.
Exactly. That’s what I was driving at by asking earlier in the thread for “terrorism” to be defined.

I mean, why does the sabotage campaign that Mandela’s Umkhonto weSizwe group cause such outrage when the apartheid regime in power was treating black South Africans like garbage? Who were the real terrorists here, for heaven’s sake?

We have to do away with this double standard that ordinary citizens can freely be given such a label but states are allowed to run roughshod over their populations, causing far worse damage, without being so tarnished.
 
Eternal rest grant unto him O Lord
And may perpetual light shine upon him
 
No man is perfect, and it is quite evident that Nelson Mandala was a great leader who did far better at reconciling the past and seeking peace between blacks and whites than most. But he was still imperfect as all men are. We must never forget we are all sinners and fall far short of our own ideals.
 
He was my favorite communist. I dislike much of his politics, but I admire him personally and consider him a great leader. May God have mercy on him, and all of us.
 
Exactly. That’s what I was driving at by asking earlier in the thread for “terrorism” to be defined.

I mean, why does the sabotage campaign that Mandela’s Umkhonto weSizwe group cause such outrage when the apartheid regime in power was treating black South Africans like garbage? Who were the real terrorists here, for heaven’s sake?

We have to do away with this double standard that ordinary citizens can freely be given such a label but states are allowed to run roughshod over their populations, causing far worse damage, without being so tarnished.
I wonder if the same people calling Mandela and the ANC terrorists would be as generous in splashing that label on the leaders of the American war of Independence against the then rightful Government (of the British Monarch) in America? Perhaps they believe the words in the American Declaration of Independence referring to a right to remove an unjust government are simply old declarations of terrorism? Or maybe they reserve that right to only certain classes of oppressed peoples, like Americans?
 
Many of the ANC’s attacks were directed against civilians instead of military and police personel. I’d say that makes them nothing more than terrorists.
 
I wonder if the same people calling Mandela and the ANC terrorists would be as generous in splashing that label on the leaders of the American war of Independence against the then rightful Government (of the British Monarch) in America? Perhaps they believe the words in the American Declaration of Independence referring to a right to remove an unjust government are simply old declarations of terrorism? Or maybe they reserve that right to only certain classes of oppressed peoples, like Americans?
The American revolution was a Godly one.

The French revolution was an ungodly one.

See how dissent was treated by the former and latter after their respective victories were achieved. British loyalist were allowed to leave peacefully, in France any (real or imagined) enemy of “the Revolution” was massacred.

Which do you think the ANC embraced? And will embrace now?

“When Mandela dies we will kill you whites like flies” - Mzukisi Gaba (ANC councilor and politician at the Provincial government of the Western Cape.)
 
Eternal rest grant unto him O Lord
And may perpetual light shine upon him
Amen
 
Just wait a minute. You are implying that the ANC carried out necklacing? Are you serious? The ANC condemned necklacing. When you say “ANC supporters”, you are including the entire black community in the apartheid era, surely you realize that. You apportion blame to the ANC for anything that mobs in oppressed black neighborhoods carried out. If necklacing is your reason for calling the ANC a terrorist group then you are sorely mistaken. Find another reason. Next, comparing ANC to the Apartheid government is simply laughable. Evenly matched? I’m glad you’re saying that far away from within earshot of South Africans who lived through Apartheid. And treason? That’s the craziest thing you’ve said. A minority of less than 10% oppressed over 90% of the population in their own land. That was no government. That was no treason.
 
How does any of this make the ANC a terrorist organization? The discussion is not about how much love all members of the ANC had towards the white minorities in South Africa. Neither are we discussing what black people did in their neighborhoods in reaction to decades of inhumanity and oppression. If these make the ANC a terrorist organization despite its condemnation of these activities you were referring to, then you must not mind when people call the Catholic Church a global pedophiliac organization. The standard seems to be that anything Catholics do that the church condemns is attributable to the church as an organization. Is this standard what you mean when you call the ANC a terrorist group?
 
The American revolution was a Godly one.

The French revolution was an ungodly one.

See how dissent was treated by the former and latter after their respective victories were achieved. British loyalist were allowed to leave peacefully, in France any (real or imagined) enemy of “the Revolution” was massacred.

Which do you think the ANC embraced? And will embrace now?

“When Mandela dies we will kill you whites like flies” - Mzukisi Gaba (ANC councilor and politician at the Provincial government of the Western Cape.)
I’m in South Africa right now. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Of all that the politicians have said, you pick out a quote from one insignificant small-time politician as the truthsayer. Americas revolution was godly, but not the French. Geez! God came down and told you so? I don’t need say more.
 
Talk about a straw-man! Since when did corruption equal terrorism? Are we now evaluating the ANC as a political party? It is you poisoning the well. First you started with the story of the necklacing and now your talking about summary executions but you’re not providing proof that the ANC did these things. Tutu condemns the ANC for corruption, saying the ANC has fallen far from the group he and Madiba joined. Yet you’re telling us that the group that he and Mandela joined was a terrorist group. Which is it? And about condemnations, I wonder how many condemnations the church has received if this is the standard we are using to determine a group as a terrorist organization?
 
I don’t think so. I suspect that had you spoken with some of the young black women enslaved by white slavemasters you would have a different opinion. In many cases these young black female slaves were required to do immoral things with their white slavemaster. The white slavemaster is free to travel about, whereas the slave is not. Many black slaves were put in chains and bound to the ship as they were transported to America from Africa, whereas the white slavemaster was free and suffered no such humiliation. Also, black slaves were auctioned off and bought and sold, which was another humiliation and degradation not experienced by the slavemaster. So I don’t see how anyone can seriously contend that it was the white slavemaster who was the enslaved one. After all, it was the white slavemaster who was buying and selling black slaves and beating them and putting them in chains.
 
After all, it was the white slavemaster who was buying and selling black slaves and beating them and putting them in chains.
Slavery was evil, we can all agree about that. I think whites are given a larger share of the blame than they deserve for slavery. Whites abolished slavery long ago the first group to do so, but slavery is still present in Africa where blacks enslave other blacks.

townhall.com/columnists/michaelmedved/2007/09/26/six_inconvenient_truths_about_the_us_and_slavery/page/full

"the actual capture and kidnapping of the millions of victims always occurred at the hands of neighboring tribes. As the great African-American historian Nathan Huggins pointed out, “virtually all of the enslavement of Africans was carried out by other Africans”

“In the final analysis, Yale historian David Brion Davis in his definitive 2006 history “Inhuman Bondage: The Rise and Fall of Slavery in the New World” notes that “colonial North America…surprisingly received only 5 to 6 percent of the African slaves shipped across the Atlantic.” Meanwhile, the Arab slave trade (primarily from East Africa) lasted longer and enslaved more human beings than the European slavers working the other side of the continent.”

“5. While America deserves no unique blame for the existence of slavery, the United States merits special credit for its rapid abolition.”

In Africa today: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa

"The continent of Africa is one of the most problematic regions in terms of contemporary slavery. Slavery in Africa has a long history, within Africa since before historical records, but intensifying with the Arab slave trade and again with the trans-Atlantic slave trade; the demand for slaves created an entire series of kingdoms (such as the Ashanti Empire) which existed in a state of perpetual warfare in order to generate the prisoners of war necessary for the lucrative export of slaves. These patterns have persisted into the colonial period during the late 19th and early 20th century. Although the colonial authorities attempted to suppress slavery from about 1900, this had very limited success, and after decolonization, slavery continues in many parts of Africa even though being technically illegal.

Modern day slavery in Africa according to the Anti-Slavery Society includes exploitation of subjugate populations even when their condition is not technically called “slavery”:

Although this exploitation is often not called slavery, the conditions are the same. People are sold like objects, forced to work for little or no pay and are at the mercy of their “employers”.

— Antislavery Society, What is Modern Slavery

Forced labor in Sub-Saharan Africa is estimated at 660,000.[3] This includes people involved in the illegal diamond mines of Sierra Leone and Liberia, which is also a direct result of the civil war in these regions.[4]"
 
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