Neo-Pagan views of the Christian God

[ljubim]

Oddly when I went into RCIA up to when I left my life got worse and worse. Lost job, lost girlfriend, lost friends, couldn’t find work, sick sick SICK, father riding me to find a job, attempts to return to college failed ect. This kinda thing happens everytime I so much as make the sign of the cross or say a Hail Mary. To the point I did the sign of the cross out of habit as an ambulance rushed past lights blazing and my car broke down again! (It broke down all the time as a Catholic and in RCIA. When I left no problems till then).

As a Druid I’ve found work, me and ex are talking and might reunite. I got offeres from friends wanting to help me get on my feet. I am healthier and managed to find a dentist to fix a horrible cavity I’ve had and a doctor that is helping me with my heath issues. These are things I couldn’t afford but found some that work cheap and let you make payments.

Um… I agree with Lumen. This sounds like demonic attack. The devil didn’t want you to be Catholic… he wants to have you in hell. And you gave in.
Similar things happen to me whenever I become more devout. You know, little pathetic attempts to make me not listen to what God is telling me. This is coming from somebody who once thought praying was as useless as talking to a wall. Fighting these temptations, perservering through the hardships, is what life is always about. Just because you take the middle road and act lazy, like God doesn’t exist, doesn’t make any difference. He still exists, and you’ve just chosen to go to hell. What a dangerous road to be on. Playing games with God never works out well for us.

This reminds me of the little story about the sickly little girl who was given a locket by somebody like yourself, with instructions to always wear it, never to open it, and she’ll get better.
She did get better. Life was beautiful. Her parents were so overjoyed that she was healed instantly.
But a few years later, the girl became extremely depressed. She began trying to kill herself. She was a mental case.
The parents decided to open the locket. Inside was a tiny piece of paper, reading:
Satan, keep this girl’s body healthy on earth until you possess her soul in hell.

The same thing is happening to you. Just because you deny that gravity exists doesn’t mean that’s true. You definitely have my prayers and sympathy.

 

[dzheremi]

With no other word about the OP’s current or past religious activities and beliefs, I must say that changing religions over a run of bad fortune is just about the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. Your girlfriend left you, your car broke down, you can’t get into college…we’ve all been there at one time or another. These may be reasons to complain (they’re even better reasons to pray), but that anyone should abandon their faith or take up another because of them, even if there are a lot of them, indicates a really troubling lack of spiritual maturity. Please don’t think this is me talking down to anyone, as I’m infected with an awful lot of that same disease, but I know the difference between a cure and a band-aid. If tenacity is not listed among catholic virtues, it should be. It’s way more needed for any true conversion than some “good omens” or what have you in the form of getting what you want in life. The heart is deceitful above all things, remember? I agree with the OP in terms of being careful what you pray for. Maybe I’m just a glutton for punishment, but I often find myself wondering about good fortune even after I’ve received plenty, precisely because I do not want to be so attached to the world or so convinced that God is on “my side” even if I may want things for selfish, immature reasons. That’s not true spirituality. That’s treating God like Santa Claus.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Well, in the Catholic view, we would think that you were under a demonic attack BECAUSE you were becoming Catholic–these critters will cause all sorts of problems for you if you are going towards a place they do not want you to go. .

Of course the problem is if this was reversed it would be seen as a sign of what I could expect away fromt he Protection of the Church.

(sorry about not being able to answer right away, very busy week for me. And the “grumpy pants meanie” comment was not to baby-talk. I was being light hearted. Apologies if I came across any other way.)

No problem. It’s just around here I often encounter the Neo-Pagans are spoiled children line so it broke my sarcasam metter.

Have they told you that? That would be a shameful thing for them to do.

Yes, was in one Church as the congregation prayed it for all non-Christians in the audieance. An they worry about us tossing curses…

God is not a big vending machine–we do something and He responds by giving us what we want. Not what it’s about. He gives us what we need, though, and is there for us even in our worst, darkest times.

I think I should clearify the heard prayers thing a bit. Sometimes it is nothing more than “We have heard your prayer and received your offering and your gift is accepted with our thanks!”

With no other word about the OP’s current or past religious activities and beliefs, I must say that changing religions over a run of bad fortune is just about the lamest thing I’ve ever heard.

Of course if these where my reasons for doing the opposite. Leaving Paganism from Christianity. I’d be reguarded as smart for seeing through the deception an probably end up on a radio interview and maybe get a book deal as well.

Mind you I was Pagan first, then Catholic but my religious past isn’t the topic. I’ve just noticed any reason to leave Paganism is considered good and the same reasons are looked at as lame and immature when it is reversed.

God is on “my side” even if I may want things for selfish, immature reasons. That’s not true spirituality. That’s treating God like Santa Claus.

Just repeating this to make sure it gets out: I think I should clearify the heard prayers thing a bit. Sometimes it is nothing more than “We have heard your prayer and received your offering and your gift is accepted with our thanks!”

 

[dzheremi]

Of course if these where my reasons for doing the opposite. Leaving Paganism from Christianity. I’d be reguarded as smart for seeing through the deception an probably end up on a radio interview and maybe get a book deal as well.

Huh? The whole point of my post was that converting to or from ANY religion for what you (can) get out of your conversion is not a very smart move.

Mind you I was Pagan first, then Catholic but my religious past isn’t the topic. I’ve just noticed any reason to leave Paganism is considered good and the same reasons are looked at as lame and immature when it is reversed.

Apologies, I didn’t read the thread that this one is split from, so I don’t know your past religious activities beyond what is divulged here. You’re right, that’s not the topic. My point is not to dismiss your reasoning because it has led to a place that I don’t agree with, but to say that it is faulty reasoning to begin with no matter where you end up. If you had said the same things about becoming a Christian, I would have the exact same response even if I would agree much more with the result of your decision.

 

[lumenorientale]

Of course the problem is if this was reversed it would be seen as a sign of what I could expect away fromt he Protection of the Church.

Could you please clarify this statement? Maybe because I’ve been up since 5 in the morning, and I"m just not getting it…lol…but I’m not quite understanding what you are saying.

Yes, was in one Church as the congregation prayed it for all non-Christians in the audieance. An they worry about us tossing curses…

**Well, personally, I don’t believe any of that stuff works. A witch could lob all the curses he/she wants at me. I say, go ahead. It won’t do a thing because there is no such thing. I don’t believe humans have that kind of power. **

I think I should clearify the heard prayers thing a bit. Sometimes it is nothing more than “We have heard your prayer and received your offering and your gift is accepted with our thanks!”

Of course, I’m sure that is being said. But your prior posts indicate also that you believe that said dieties are granting wishes. Because you A) left Catholicism, and B) pray to them. If I’m off base, please do elaborate.

Of course if these where my reasons for doing the opposite. Leaving Paganism from Christianity. I’d be reguarded as smart for seeing through the deception an probably end up on a radio interview and maybe get a book deal as well.

**So, you are saying that problems do come and go, and that it had really no bearing on why you left the Faith? **

Mind you I was Pagan first, then Catholic but my religious past isn’t the topic. I’ve just noticed any reason to leave Paganism is considered good and the same reasons are looked at as lame and immature when it is reversed.

**Again I say, whatever may come, God is still there for us. In our sufferings, He is there. In our joys, He is there. It’s not about health and wealth, it’s not about making us happy. It’s about God loving us and us loving Him. **

By the way, very much enjoying this conversation.

 

[lumenorientale]

It seems no one can make up there minds on this. Don’t love him / Don’t obey him/ Went into the wrong church. It seems the viewpoint changes with the political strength the Catholic Church has.

So you know where I am coming from I firmly agree with ADF founder Isaac Bonewits that if the Catholic Church had the power today it would just put the new Pagans to death and be done with it.

**Nice. So he knows EXACTLY what would happen? How is that? By recalling a time in the past in which the entire world was full of barbarism? And extrapolating that to a what-if scenario of modern times? **

The Gods never left us, we left them. While the Catholic Church spread in a fasion similar to Islam killing many and assassinating any spirtual leader that was good at defeating the Missionaries ni debate, Thor grabed his hammer and called Jesus to a duel. Jesus ran for his life.

As it just happens they are respecters of man’s free will. Had our ancestors as a majority stayed true to our Gods, Christianity would now be a footnote. As it was the Gods stayed by helping those that requested aid as they came. Oddly as the last Pagan tribes in Eastern Europe fail the revival of Paganism got underway in Western Europe.

** And Jesus ran for His life? Documentation please. Also, it doesn’t appear that Thor won out, after all. Christianity is still THE major world religion. And if you want to talk about ugliness, I could also mention some ugliness from Paganism. It wasn’t all sunshine and lollipops, not a bunch of hippies sitting around in some pagan-Eden loving everyone. Current historical evidence points to the fact that Druids did indeed engage in human sacrifice and cannibalism–that the Romans were at least partially right about that. Now, I am not one to bring up the ugliness of the past, but if you want to parade some bogeymen, I have a right to as well.**

 

[ljubim]

Well, personally, I don’t believe any of that stuff works. A witch could lob all the curses he/she wants at me. I say, go ahead. It won’t do a thing because there is no such thing. I don’t believe humans have that kind of power.

This is a bit off topic, but I agree on some part… MOST of this stuff is baloney.

But just as God uses us to accomplish His Will, so the devil can use people to accomplish his. I mean, do you not believe in demonic possession? Or demons in general? People can submit to the devil and ask him to work through them… Remember, since satan is like a lion prowling around for victims, so he can pounce on people who try to worship him or devote themselves to him.

Most wiccan/satanic stuff, this doesn’t apply to. But what do you make of abortionists, such as the one in Rockford, where he lives in the building… Demons show extreme aversion to blessed and holy things. So every Monday a group of priests stand at each of the corners of the building, and pray the exorcism prayer for an hour. The man literally cannot physically stay in the building during this time. He has tried… but he literally cannot.

Perhaps half of Jesus’ teaching on earth was spent exorcising people, and it is foolish to discredit what Jesus taught us. I don’t know if that’s what you’re getting at, or if you just believe that demons cannot work through people:shrug: Because they can. It’s not by the witches own powers, it’s through the demons they ‘invoke’. I mean it’s creepy, scary stuff, but it cannot be forgotten.

 

[lumenorientale]

This is a bit off topic, but I agree on some part… MOST of this stuff is baloney.

But just as God uses us to accomplish His Will, so the devil can use people to accomplish his. I mean, do you not believe in demonic possession? Or demons in general? People can submit to the devil and ask him to work through them… Remember, since satan is like a lion prowling around for victims, so he can pounce on people who try to worship him or devote themselves to him.

**I agree with this. Demons have power, but not people. In witchcraft, it may appear that the witches control the demons–but in fact, it’s the other way around. I believe in demonic possession. I just don’t believe that you can all up Psychic Hotline and have them place a “love spell” on someone, or do a “money dance” and expect to get rich. All that stuff is a scam. The witches that would like to lob curses at me like footballs can do that all they want. God is infinitely more powerful than any crystals, mood rings, or herbal concoctions. **

Most wiccan/satanic stuff, this doesn’t apply to. But what do you make of abortionists, such as the one in Rockford, where he lives in the building… Demons show extreme aversion to blessed and holy things. So every Monday a group of priests stand at each of the corners of the building, and pray the exorcism prayer for an hour. The man literally cannot physically stay in the building during this time. He has tried… but he literally cannot.

**Is there an article about this? I definitely want to read about it! I believe that it is the power of God, driving the demons out, not human power. I firmly believe that abortion is demonic, that’s why its supporters are so rabid about it, yet so completely irrational. And yes, demons can terrorize people, and hurt them, but God is so much bigger. **

Perhaps half of Jesus’ teaching on earth was spent exorcising people, and it is foolish to discredit what Jesus taught us. I don’t know if that’s what you’re getting at, or if you just believe that demons cannot work through people:shrug: Because they can. It’s not by the witches own powers, it’s through the demons they ‘invoke’. I mean it’s creepy, scary stuff, but it cannot be forgotten.

I agree also. No, I don’t discredit his teaching. But again, the witches don’t control the demons, the demons control the witches. The demons could attack someone whether or not the witch wants them to. They don’t need witches to do that. And witches have no power of their own. Just like we have no power of our own–it is all the Lord.

…and please forgive me if I come off a little on the…skeptical side about things. I’m a recovering atheist–meaning, I’m recovering from that time in my life. I’m feeling much better now…

 

[NoWings]

You say God sends people to hell for not loving him. Not so. he sends people there for not obeying him. I love my parents. They knew it. But if i disobeyed them i was punished. So i’m sorry you fail on that one.

You folks need to stop comparing God to human parents, because they’re two completely different things.

My parents used to punish me for disobeying, too. But, my mother and father never cast me out forever, and they certainly never ordered me tortured for eternity, and their love is supposed to be finite compared to God’s.

YOUR argument fails on this one.

 

[NoWings]

Well, personally, I don’t believe any of that stuff works. A witch could lob all the curses he/she wants at me. I say, go ahead. It won’t do a thing because there is no such thing. I don’t believe humans have that kind of power.

So, Jesus didn’t curse the fig tree to make it wither and die?

 

[cyberwolf001]

Could you please clarify this statement? Maybe because I’ve been up since 5 in the morning, and I"m just not getting it…lol…but I’m not quite understanding what you are saying.

Certainly. The basic idea is that if reverse the statement and I was having a horrible life after turning to Paganism, this would be seen as evidence of why Paganism is wrong. Basicly a catch 22.

Well, personally, I don’t believe any of that stuff works. A witch could lob all the curses he/she wants at me. I say, go ahead. It won’t do a thing because there is no such thing. I don’t believe humans have that kind of power.

Keep in mind I am talking about a Christian praying this. A Christian friend of mine loves saying a prayer like this WILL get answered, just not be Jesus…

Of course, I’m sure that is being said. But your prior posts indicate also that you believe that said dieties are granting wishes. Because you A) left Catholicism, and B) pray to them. If I’m off base, please do elaborate.

This is true, just I try to keep it breath as this is about Neo-Pagans and how we view God not me Revert to Druidism story which would REALLY derail the thread. I have just been attempting to point out differences in my life. After all all the good things happened AFTER me reverting so it should follow they where not my reasons.

So, you are saying that problems do come and go, and that it had really no bearing on why you left the Faith?

Correct just highlighting differences in how my life has gone.

By the way, very much enjoying this conversation.

Ditto

Nice. So he knows EXACTLY what would happen? How is that? By recalling a time in the past in which the entire world was full of barbarism? And extrapolating that to a what-if scenario of modern times?

Based off historic examples i.e. Joan of Arc threatened a crusade on people if they did not return to the Church. As in return to Catholicism or die. Then there are the northern crusades and you got some Catholic groups pushing articles saying to kill in Jesus’ name is glorious! Link, Linknote this is a Saint being quoted in these links. The no true scotsmen can be played, but still many of us wonder what if?

And Jesus ran for His life? Documentation please.

Link There you go it has become part of the Norse Pagan Theology of late. Thor is often called on, with great success, to counter Christian prayers.

Also, it doesn’t appear that Thor won out, after all. Christianity is still THE major world religion. And if you want to talk about ugliness, I could also mention some ugliness from Paganism.

It wasn’t all sunshine and lollipops, not a bunch of hippies sitting around in some pagan-Eden loving everyone. Current historical evidence points to the fact that Druids did indeed engage in human sacrifice and cannibalism–that the Romans were at least partially right about that. Now, I am not one to bring up the ugliness of the past, but if you want to parade some bogeymen, I have a right to as well.

Yes and while we are at it Odin was known to beat his own followers to death, the Greek goddess Athena cursed a woman for defeating her in a contest of skill. The Norse goddess Ran constructed nets to drown sailors.

Pagans through Christians to the lions, and after Christianity became the offical religion the Christians tossed the Pagans to the lions and Pope Liberius ordered death camps built at least one at Skythopolis for executing Pagans.

We can do this back and forth forever. In ADF we have no reason to deny the ugly side of our faith and protend our gods are perfect. They are not no god is, you only have gods that claim they are and it can easily be disproved. But this isn’t really about debating Jesus’ morality either, that’s another thread and I’d really like to stick to one thread at a time please.

This is a bit off topic, but I agree on some part… MOST of this stuff is baloney.

I’ve found it to be rather wonderful and effective personally.

 

[cyberwolf001]

You folks need to stop comparing God to human parents, because they’re two completely different things.

My parents used to punish me for disobeying, too. But, my mother and father never cast me out forever, and they certainly never ordered me tortured for eternity, and their love is supposed to be finite compared to God’s.

YOUR argument fails on this one.

This actually sums it up a lot better. Then mine. I am reminded of stories where my gods punished peopel horrible and then forgive them and tried to make it up to them for there wrongs.

 

[ljubim]

I’ve found it to be rather wonderful and effective personally.

By “MOST of this stuff is baloney” I was referring to demonic worship and witchcraft.

I guess that evil always speaks the truth at some point:shrug:

 

[cyberwolf001]

By “MOST of this stuff is baloney” I was referring to demonic worship and witchcraft.:

I toke baloney to mean wrong. An of course a Catholic will reguard Paganism as demonic worship.

Of course a protestant would say the same of Catholicism.

I guess that evil always speaks the truth at some point:shrug:

What do you mean?

BTW: Off to work wont be on till tomarrow.

 

[ljubim]

Is there an article about this? I definitely want to read about it! I believe that it is the power of God, driving the demons out, not human power. I firmly believe that abortion is demonic, that’s why its supporters are so rabid about it, yet so completely irrational. And yes, demons can terrorize people, and hurt them, but God is so much bigger.
…
…and please forgive me if I come off a little on the…skeptical side about things. I’m a recovering atheist–meaning, I’m recovering from that time in my life. I’m feeling much better now…

That’s ok I used to be very skeptical about this kind of stuff too. But then I began, well I guess maturing in my faith and not only is it terribly interesting to read about, but it’s a core part of our faith. After all, there’s no heavenly angels without fallen angels, you know?

It’s not an article, but an exorcist (priest of course) was speaking about the subject… I think this is the speech he mentioned it in (Fr. Euteneuer): audiosancto.org/auweb/20081007-An-Evening-with-an-Exorcist.mp3
but if it’s not then let me know and I’ll look into it.
If this is it, then he doesn’t mention where the clinic is but I’m almost positive it’s Rockford… I’ve been on a lot of pro-life websites and Rockford and its abortionist are notorious. Do a search on the internet for pro-life Rockford… terrible things are happening there.

If you’re more interested, and like reading, I’d recommend readint the book The Rite: The making of a modern exorcist. Awesome book:thumbsup:

 

[lumenorientale]

So, Jesus didn’t curse the fig tree to make it wither and die?

Well, we don’t believe Jesus was just human.

 

[lumenorientale]

That’s ok I used to be very skeptical about this kind of stuff too. But then I began, well I guess maturing in my faith and not only is it terribly interesting to read about, but it’s a core part of our faith. After all, there’s no heavenly angels without fallen angels, you know?

It’s not an article, but an exorcist (priest of course) was speaking about the subject… I think this is the speech he mentioned it in (Fr. Euteneuer): audiosancto.org/auweb/20081007-An-Evening-with-an-Exorcist.mp3
but if it’s not then let me know and I’ll look into it.
If this is it, then he doesn’t mention where the clinic is but I’m almost positive it’s Rockford… I’ve been on a lot of pro-life websites and Rockford and its abortionist are notorious. Do a search on the internet for pro-life Rockford… terrible things are happening there.

If you’re more interested, and like reading, I’d recommend readint the book The Rite: The making of a modern exorcist. Awesome book:thumbsup:

Thanks . I will look up both the link and the book. Sounds like some interesting material. I accept that there are fallen angels that can and do wreak havoc upon the world. I believe that witches obey them, not the other way around, though.

 

[lumenorientale]

Ditto

Yes and while we are at it Odin was known to beat his own followers to death, the Greek goddess Athena cursed a woman for defeating her in a contest of skill. The Norse goddess Ran constructed nets to drown sailors.

Pagans through Christians to the lions, and after Christianity became the offical religion the Christians tossed the Pagans to the lions and Pope Liberius ordered death camps built at least one at Skythopolis for executing Pagans.

We can do this back and forth forever. In ADF we have no reason to deny the ugly side of our faith and protend our gods are perfect. They are not no god is, you only have gods that claim they are and it can easily be disproved. But this isn’t really about debating Jesus’ morality either, that’s another thread and I’d really like to stick to one thread at a time please.

Oh yes, who wants to let the thread devolve into the “your monsters are worse than my monsters” discussion? It gets old, fast.

It is my belief that God is perfect, however His followers are not. People throughout history have used religion of all kinds to commit monstrous acts, however, in Christianity, I have seen also great love. Sacrificial love, crazy, radical love that leads people into the ghettos and slums to care for lepers and other “untouchables,” when otherwise they could be working 9-5 and driving Beemers. Have I seen love like this in other religions? No, not to this degree.

I see the nuns where I work, there at the bedside of the dying, kissing their hands and washing their feet and embracing the families. Something strange is at work there. Something I want just a small portion of. I think to myself all the time “if only I could do my job with just a little of that love.”

I guess I’m just rambling. I’m no theologian. I’m a wife, a mom, an ICU nurse. There are people here who can explain it better than I, and I invite them to do so.

 

[latin_rite]

When did I say this?

All pagans say this. Haven’t came across a pagan who doesn’t say that Christians stole their “holy” days. Ideas etc.

It seems no one can make up there minds on this. Don’t love him / Don’t obey him/ Went into the wrong church. It seems the viewpoint changes with the political strength the Catholic Church has.

Really so going into say baptist church will mean you will go to hell? I’ll have to check to see where the Church says this
If you don’t love him. You wont obey him. So it all comes back to do as he says or else. You say no one can make up their minds… I can.

So you know where I am coming from I firmly agree with ADF founder Isaac Bonewits that if the Catholic Church had the power today it would just put the new Pagans to death and be done with it.

Sorry you feel that way. Your leader sounds like a drama queen. But do you mean
That we would put you to death the way pagans puts thousands of christians to death, when they had the power.?Bbut anyway Don’t flatter yourself. We don’t give you people that much credence

The Gods never left us, we left them. While the Catholic Church spread in a fasion similar to Islam killing many and assassinating any spirtual leader that was good at defeating the Missionaries ni debate, Thor grabed his hammer and called Jesus to a duel. Jesus ran for his life.

And why did they leave them? Because the so called pagan gods were powerless against the the true God. The true pagans The ones who knew their stuff. saw this and started to follow the one true God. The pagans killed all of the christians. Missionaries too.Thing is killing ours only made us stronger. While the killing of theirs. only sent the TRUE pagans into fits despair and a depth of depression. Shows the power of God v’s the myths of paganism. Jesus ran? I suppose he did run…run to the top of the hill that is… Jesus is the most powerful religious figure the earth has ever seen. But what happened to thor. Banished to comic books. So it seems even when armed with a weapon. He still couldn’t topple Jesus. YAYYYY Jesus.

As it just happens they are respecters of man’s free will. Had our ancestors as a majority stayed true to our Gods, Christianity would now be a footnote. As it was the Gods stayed by helping those that requested aid as they came. Oddly as the last Pagan tribes in Eastern Europe fail the revival of Paganism got underway in Western Europe.

Yeah…And “had” i picked 9 instead of 8 In our states lotto I would have been a multi millionaire on my 19th birthday But i didn’t I picked nine and well.The point is Life and history is full of what ifs or if only they had. But we can really only talk about the facts of what actually happened. And that is The true pagans didn’t stick with their myths because they were weak and useless. And thats why we are NOT a footnote. But the main story of the past 2,000 yrs. The main actor… while pagans are just…well do they even deserve a mention in the credits?

How so? They don’t tend tend to kill people for following other Gods or order there tribes to be annihilated to the last man.

Ok not one pagan mythilogical deity had a jealous streak.

You do realize Hades wasn’t hell right? Infact Helheim wasn’t even hell. Infact some parts of Hades are rather nice places with food and drink aplenty.

Yeah. But don’t sit there and tell me that it was all beer and skittles. You know that There people suffering in torment and damnation in hades.

It depends fully on the worshipper. Some Gods you have a “facebook” relationship with, others it is like a buisness arrangement, still others it is like family. All depending.

You missed the point.

 

[lumenorientale]

Certainly. The basic idea is that if reverse the statement and I was having a horrible life after turning to Paganism, this would be seen as evidence of why Paganism is wrong. Basicly a catch 22.

.

Or one could chalk it up to the normal vicissitudes of life…