Neo-Pagan views of the Christian God

[latin_rite]

You folks need to stop comparing God to human parents, because they’re two completely different things.

My parents used to punish me for disobeying, too. But, my mother and father never cast me out forever, and they certainly never ordered me tortured for eternity, and their love is supposed to be finite compared to God’s.

YOUR argument fails on this one.

Only because parents dont have the power too. But seriously. It was just a simple comparison. Of course my parents wouldn’t condem me to hell for enternity. But then again as a kid i do anything that desereved it etheir. So if its ok with you i will continue to compare the actions of parents with the actions of God. Sorry if that upsets you. But i don’t really care what you think.

 

[lumenorientale]

You folks need to stop comparing God to human parents, because they’re two completely different things.

My parents used to punish me for disobeying, too. But, my mother and father never cast me out forever, and they certainly never ordered me tortured for eternity, and their love is supposed to be finite compared to God’s.

YOUR argument fails on this one.

People cast themselves into Hell, much like the drug addict does his drugs no matter what his parents may tell him. He may even keep drugging himself until he dies. Parents love us, but they can’t force us to do anything. They can tell us to stop, they can help us try to stop, but in the end, it’s up to us. It’s called free will.

 

[NoWings]

Well, we don’t believe Jesus was just human.

True, but he also represents what humans can become. That’s the whole goal of theosis/deification. If a human can move a mountain, literally, with just faith, then I don’t see how cursing a fig tree would be relegated to just God alone.

 

[lumenorientale]

True, but he also represents what humans can become. That’s the whole goal of theosis/deification. If a human can move a mountain, literally, with just faith, then I don’t see how cursing a fig tree would be relegated to just God alone.

True, to a point…but, if I ever am able to curse a plant to die (and I’ve been tempted, sorely tempted to do so to a plant known as a “devil’s club.” grrrr, those things are nasty), it will not be through my own power, but God’s. It is not faith itself that moves mountains, it is God who does so, working through the person.

 

[Rachel_1]

I was raised pagan, lived as a pagan until 2005 (except for a 2 1/2 yr ‘break’ where I went to a protestant church- I left it, and went back to paganism). From 2005 until late Aug 2009 I was, I don’t know what I was… I was praying to figure out what I should believe I guess. In late Aug this year, some things happened that led me straight to the Catholic church.
Now, I will assume that cyberwolf will likely try to debate me, and claim that everything I say is invalid (this may be an unfair statement but it’s happened before so I apologize if it sounds unfair) now that I’m not pagan and going to church, but I’m going to say it anyway, because it’s my personal experience, and nothing that anyone says can take it away.
As a pagan, I didn’t believe that the pagan ‘gods’ were real, I didn’t go around saying that thor beat down Jesus or anything like that either… what I used to believe, and a lot of pagans still believe is that there is a ‘life force’ type god, and that the various gods in whatever pantheon you happened to worship came from that life force, kind of like different manifestations of it- for instance, inanna (goddess of love) for when you need something love related. To believe that they are real personalities is kind of funny to me when I read what cyberwolf said.
When I joined RCIA (I’m still in it), I also had a ton of bad stuff happen, I still do have all sorts of bad things happening, but here’s the difference… I’m not doing this to either get good stuff or for any material type things. I’m doing this because I’m convinced it’s right, true, and because our life here is *nothing * compared to the afterlife. Our time here is so short compared to eternity that I would be really dumb to stop what I’m doing, knowing it’s true and right, to gain a little material junk here, or stop some bad things that will eventually pass. Do I believe it’s demons or whatever causing this? Maybe, I think it’s a possibility yes, but it also could just be weird timing or whatever. Also remember this:
John 15:18-20
"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Living as God wants us to is not easy, we were never told it would be all gooshy and fun. For my own personal bad things going on, it has to do with this type of stuff that Jesus spoke of. I’ve literally lost all my friends, my husband thinks I’m crazy (he’s still pagan), my kids all think I’ve lost it and the only one of my kids that accepts my going to RCIA is my atheist son (I have to assume God is working on him too).
I’ve had other stuff happen too like cyberwolf did, financial loss, extreme stress, lol I even have the mafia mad at me and have had my life threatened, just lots of all around bad stuff, but again, I’m not willing to stand before Jesus and say “oh well, you know, it sorta sucked and I got tired of all the bad stuff, so I decided to just stop doing what you wanted”. To me, the bad stuff is worth it in the end to do the right thing.

 

[GeorgeSword]

Pope Liberius building Pagan death camps? Now that’s a new one. Got any sources to back it up? As far as I have read, there were very few Pagan martyrs when Christianity became the official religion of Rome.
On another note, you mentioned several things that I would like to talk about.
For one, you said something about Thor picking up his hammer, and trying to duel Christ…
Well, that’s one of the good things, one of the unique things, about Christ, about God. He does not need to duel anyone. He does not have human emotions. What are the Pagan gods, beyond powerful humans? They grow angry, they make mistakes, and the quarrel and bicker amongst one another. That is not the way of the true God. He is all knowing, with a single raising of His finger He can smite a king if He has just reason to do so. As He is all knowing, He is always just. When He makes a judgement, it, too, is just, and right. Sometimes justice can be harsh.
So, Christ never had to duel Thor. ‘Thor’ was smitten as easily by Christ as a gnat is smitten by you or I.
Where was Thor, when St. Bonifice had his sacred oak cut down? Why did he not smite Bonifice for such a sacrilege, which became only greater when the wood of the oak was used to build a church?

 

[NoWings]

He does not have human emotions. What are the Pagan gods, beyond powerful humans? They grow angry, they make mistakes, and the quarrel and bicker amongst one another. That is not the way of the true God.

You’re suggesting that Jesus wasn’t fully human because he didn’t have human emotions.

That is heresy.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Over on this thread Link. The topic turned to how many Polytheist feel about the Christian God. One poster suggested splitting the thread.

To be fair, hell is not an exclusively Judeo-Christian concept and neither are the reasons why someone would end up there whether you want to call it the Outer Darkness/Lake of Fire (Egyptian), Tartarus (Greek), Hel (Norse), etc.

 

[latin_rite]

I was raised pagan, lived as a pagan until 2005 (except for a 2 1/2 yr ‘break’ where I went to a protestant church- I left it, and went back to paganism). From 2005 until late Aug 2009 I was, I don’t know what I was… I was praying to figure out what I should believe I guess. In late Aug this year, some things happened that led me straight to the Catholic church.
Now, I will assume that cyberwolf will likely try to debate me, and claim that everything I say is invalid (this may be an unfair statement but it’s happened before so I apologize if it sounds unfair) now that I’m not pagan and going to church, but I’m going to say it anyway, because it’s my personal experience, and nothing that anyone says can take it away.
As a pagan, I didn’t believe that the pagan ‘gods’ were real, I didn’t go around saying that thor beat down Jesus or anything like that either… what I used to believe, and a lot of pagans still believe is that there is a ‘life force’ type god, and that the various gods in whatever pantheon you happened to worship came from that life force, kind of like different manifestations of it- for instance, inanna (goddess of love) for when you need something love related. To believe that they are real personalities is kind of funny to me when I read what cyberwolf said.
When I joined RCIA (I’m still in it), I also had a ton of bad stuff happen, I still do have all sorts of bad things happening, but here’s the difference… I’m not doing this to either get good stuff or for any material type things. I’m doing this because I’m convinced it’s right, true, and because our life here is *nothing * compared to the afterlife. Our time here is so short compared to eternity that I would be really dumb to stop what I’m doing, knowing it’s true and right, to gain a little material junk here, or stop some bad things that will eventually pass. Do I believe it’s demons or whatever causing this? Maybe, I think it’s a possibility yes, but it also could just be weird timing or whatever. Also remember this:
John 15:18-20
"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Living as God wants us to is not easy, we were never told it would be all gooshy and fun. For my own personal bad things going on, it has to do with this type of stuff that Jesus spoke of. I’ve literally lost all my friends, my husband thinks I’m crazy (he’s still pagan), my kids all think I’ve lost it and the only one of my kids that accepts my going to RCIA is my atheist son (I have to assume God is working on him too).
I’ve had other stuff happen too like cyberwolf did, financial loss, extreme stress, lol I even have the mafia mad at me and have had my life threatened, just lots of all around bad stuff, but again, I’m not willing to stand before Jesus and say “oh well, you know, it sorta sucked and I got tired of all the bad stuff, so I decided to just stop doing what you wanted”. To me, the bad stuff is worth it in the end to do the right thing.

Great testomony, Still seeking to find God despite all the objections of your love ones shows a great deal of strength.
John 15:18-20 Is one of my favourite verses. I wish i could learn it by heart. But its one of those verse that continues to elude me.

 

[IanCorrigan]

do Neo-Pagans believe that the Christian God exists?

As a Pagan, I do think that the God of Sinai exists, but that he is simply a regional deity who became the God of the Israelites and Judeans, and who had an attitude that made him forbid his worshippers from involvement with any other Gods.Even that latter is more likely to be a development by his politicizing priests than by the deity himself, since he long tolerated other Gods in his temple.
I don’t take the claims of scripture seriously either as to the nature of this God or his claims to have created the world, or to own and operate it.
In general I do not believe that there is any omnipotent or omniscient all-ruler of the cosmos. The divine is multiple, not single, and has a form and function proper to every situation.

 

[IanCorrigan]

Thank you. Do Neo-pagans, in general, that accept the existence of other gods outside of their personal pantheon believe that they exist as their followers see them? Put another way, for those Hellenic Recons that accept the existence of Roman or Nordic gods, how do they fit all these sometimes contradictory gods into their worldview? It seems as if Neo-pagans that believe that all gods of all peoples exist have to do some re-imagining of those other gods, essentially denying their existence (or at least how their followers say they exist).

The important thing here is to remember that Neopaganism doesn’t depend on theology. One doesn’t have to ‘believe in’ any particular set of ideas as a Pagan. Rather Neopaganism (like paleopaganism was) is based on practices. If you keep the cycles of the seasons, if you honor the gods and spirits with offerings and rites you are being a devout Neopagan, whatever you believe about the nature of the Gods.
The question of the nature and number of Gods in the world is one which was occasionally discussed by ancient Pagans. Most philosophers tended to think that a limited number of Gods served various peoples, taking forms as useful to their audience. On another level, in polytheism the Gods are always local - nature varies from place to place, and so do the Gods. So Pagans would worship Thor when in the north, and Jupiter when in Rome, and see no problem with that at all. Paganism didn’t have the ‘jealous god’ notion, and people weren’t limited in their worship by what they already worshipped.
But in the end, it simply does not matter to the religion what or who one thinks the Gods and spirits are - what matters is that you do the practices of your tradition in honor of them.

 

[IanCorrigan]

And why did they leave them? Because the so called pagan gods were powerless against the the true God.

Yes, and Jesus was powerless against the Soviets, and remains powerless to protect his followers from attack and murder by Muslims and Hindus. Face it, it was the state power of the Christianized Roman empire that over came Paganism (and took hundreds of years to do it), not the power of its Gods. You’ll notice that Jesus has consistently failed to overcome other religions when there wasn’t overwhelming state power at his disposal.

 

[IanCorrigan]

**As a pagan, I didn’t believe that the pagan ‘gods’ were real, I didn’t go around saying that thor beat down Jesus or anything like that either… what I used to believe, and a lot of pagans still believe is that there is a ‘life force’ type god, and that the various gods in whatever pantheon you happened to worship came from that life force, **

That’s not an uncommon position among neopagans of some kinds, though far from universal. Myself, I tend to think there are spiritual impersonal forces that are used by the Gods and spirits, and can also be used by mortals. I do view the Gods as separate, specific persons, though their nature is obviously different from persons bound up in limited personal flesh.

 

[IanCorrigan]

this thread is in danger of treading some well-covered ground. Interested readers might review this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=124238&highlight=neopagan+apologetics

 

[ljubim]

Yes, and Jesus was powerless against the Soviets, and remains powerless to protect his followers from attack and murder by Muslims and Hindus. Face it, it was the state power of the Christianized Roman empire that over came Paganism (and took hundreds of years to do it), not the power of its Gods. You’ll notice that Jesus has consistently failed to overcome other religions when there wasn’t overwhelming state power at his disposal.

It’s called free will. God actually respects our decisions, believe it or not, because it means so much more when we come to love Him of our own accord. And please use your mind for a moment… why is torturous death so horrid that it never can occur? Because we’re not just earthly beings alone, after we die God has us in heaven. Come on, are you trying to defame God because He lets us die? The whole point is that we can be with God in heaven after the fact. Sure, if there was no heaven, it would be important for God to make us live forever on earth. But that’s not the case. Bad theology!

 

[GeorgeSword]

You’re suggesting that Jesus wasn’t fully human because he didn’t have human emotions.

That is heresy.

No, I’m not. I am saying He is perfect in all of His forms, including His human nature. He was fully God, and as such God does not make mistakes or grow angry without just reason.

 

[IanCorrigan]

It’s called free will. God actually respects our decisions, believe it or not, because it means so much more when we come to love Him of our own accord. And please use your mind for a moment… why is torturous death so horrid that it never can occur? Because we’re not just earthly beings alone, after we die God has us in heaven. Come on, are you trying to defame God because He lets us die? The whole point is that we can be with God in heaven after the fact. Sure, if there was no heaven, it would be important for God to make us live forever on earth. But that’s not the case. Bad theology!

You miss my point - the poster said that because Christianity overcame Pagan religion in ancient Rome, Jesus must be real and the Old Gods fasle. I answered that Christianity has, in turn, frequently been overcome, so Jesus is no more willing or able to protect his church against such things than was Zeus able to protect his temples and images.

 

[NoWings]

No, I’m not. I am saying He is perfect in all of His forms, including His human nature. He was fully God, and as such God does not make mistakes or grow angry without just reason.

You just said Jesus didn’t have human emotions. Take it up with yourself.

 

[cyberwolf001]

All pagans say this. Haven’t came across a pagan who doesn’t say that Christians stole their “holy” days. Ideas etc.

But did I say it?

Really so going into say baptist church will mean you will go to hell? I’ll have to check to see where the Church says this.

extra ecclesiam nulla salus, of course it has been changed now, or the prefered term come to a fuller and more complete understanding. Main reason above all others I left, the Church changes her supposeld unchangeable doctrines. But this thread isn’t about why I left OR the infallible teachings of the Church.

Sorry you feel that way. Your leader sounds like a drama queen. But do you mean. That we would put you to death the way pagans puts thousands of christians to death, when they had the power? But anyway Don’t flatter yourself. We don’t give you people that much credence

It happened last time there is a list I am putting together of Pagans maryred for there faith.

And why did they leave them? Because the so called pagan gods were powerless against the the true God. The true pagans The ones who knew their stuff. saw this and started to follow the one true God. The pagans killed all of the christians. Missionaries too.Thing is killing ours only made us stronger. While the killing of theirs. only sent the TRUE pagans into fits despair and a depth of depression. Shows the power of God v’s the myths of paganism. Jesus ran? I suppose he did run…run to the top of the hill that is… Jesus is the most powerful religious figure the earth has ever seen. But what happened to thor. Banished to comic books. So it seems even when armed with a weapon. He still couldn’t topple Jesus. YAYYYY Jesus.

Yeah…And “had” i picked 9 instead of 8 In our states lotto I would have been a multi millionaire on my 19th birthday But i didn’t I picked nine and well.The point is Life and history is full of what ifs or if only they had. But we can really only talk about the facts of what actually happened. And that is The true pagans didn’t stick with their myths because they were weak and useless. And thats why we are NOT a footnote. But the main story of the past 2,000 yrs. The main actor… while pagans are just…well do they even deserve a mention in the credits?

Ok not one pagan mythilogical deity had a jealous streak.

Ian already addressed these and I am putting together a list of Pagan Martyr’s.

Yeah. But don’t sit there and tell me that it was all beer and skittles. You know that There people suffering in torment and damnation in hades.

Some where punished TEMPORARILY for there actions.

You missed the point.

You said the relationships where like friendships. I pointed out they can very from worshipper to worshipper and diety to diety. What point did I miss?

Pope Liberius building Pagan death camps? Now that’s a new one. Got any sources to back it up?

Don’t take my word for it please, Google search link feel free to look it over and decide for yourself.

As far as I have read, there were very few Pagan martyrs when Christianity became the official religion of Rome.

I am trying to put together a list. It isn’t lovely, of course I fully expect it to be tossed for biasness.

Ian addressed a lot of the rest so I wont retread old ground.

To be fair, hell is not an exclusively Judeo-Christian concept and neither are the reasons why someone would end up there whether you want to call it the Outer Darkness/Lake of Fire (Egyptian), Tartarus (Greek), Hel (Norse), etc.

There as punishment for DEEDS and it was not ever lasting.

It’s called free will. God actually respects our decisions, believe it or not, because it means so much more when we come to love Him of our own accord. And please use your mind for a moment… why is torturous death so horrid that it never can occur? Because we’re not just earthly beings alone, after we die God has us in heaven. Come on, are you trying to defame God because He lets us die? The whole point is that we can be with God in heaven after the fact. Sure, if there was no heaven, it would be important for God to make us live forever on earth. But that’s not the case. Bad theology!

Ian addressed this but I will add that this my same statement about why the Gods “lost”.

 

[latin_rite]

Yes, and Jesus was powerless against the Soviets,.

Yeah the soviets… Where are they now?

and remains powerless to protect his followers from attack and murder by Muslims and Hindus…

Sure. They get murdered. Since when has God ever put a bullet proof shield around his followers? The thing is. it’s still there. Sorry but you fail hard on that statement.

Face it, it was the state power of the Christianized Roman empire that over came Paganism (and took hundreds of years to do it), .

No sorry you have to face facts. Rome started destroying “pagans” ( obviously pagans they didn’t like) way before Christianity had a say in it. Thing is once the romans woke up and realized that Jesus is the way to go and dump the useless pagan “gods” It didn’t take long at all for paganism to fall apart. In fact its a little wrong for me to say they started destroying pagans. Because it was pagan fighting pagan. And when it came to rome… When they took on the religous side of pagans it had little do religion at all . but to get power over its people. Hence the reasons the knowledge of the druids is lost.

. You’ll notice that Jesus has consistently failed to overcome other religions when there wasn’t overwhelming state power at his disposal.

And who was on Jesus side when he took over rome? Where has Jesus failed? Unlike the druids he has never ever been wiped out. Ask anyone what does a true druid do? and the answer is nothing. Cause they aren’t any. WHat the so called druids of today follow is just some wishy washy nonsence made up by some stoned freaked out losers in the eighteenth century. True druidism has been lost. Which is why i say. If your gods (can i make that g any smaller?) were in anyway real. Why would they let their religion be wiped off the face of the earth? Completely and utterly gone.