Neo-Paganism Q&A

[NoWings]

Therapists who pretend to work with SRA survivors are generally cheesy rip-offs looking to make money on fear and theology.
In the entire history of the fake SRA movement there has not been a single hidden corpse discovered, not a single secret satanic chapel revealed, not a single murderer imprisoned. There is zero physical evidence for it, and no reason to believe it happens

It’s all nonsense, bearing more resemblance to Church scare-stories from the 1500s than to any actual problem in real life.

I know, right? You’d think that if there were people running around stealing and eating babies SOMEONE would mount an investigation and arrests would be made…

Isn’t that odd?

 

[SteveVH]

The FBI conducted an investigation. It found that the claims were complete 100% bull****.

They conducted AN investigation and found that the claims were 100% bull? Do you have some source for this claim? Those who don’t believe this is occurring are exactly where Satan wants them to be. From what I understand, these cults are not running around stealing babies to sacrifice for the most part. They are giving birth to them (off the grid) and then using them for that purpose.

I know in my parish that our Eucharistic ministers are instructed to make sure the Host is consumed by the one taking it to prevent it from being taken out of the Church as this is a common practice of Satanists. They want the Host in order to desecrate it. A close friend of mine experienced this very thing while trying to recover a teenager who had fallen into a Satanic cult. In other words, there is probably little to investigate from a law enforcement standpoint unless someone from teh outside is just outright murdered or kidnapped. The crimes being committed are very much behind the scenes, usually with no one to report it.

 

[kenofken]

So now we’ve drifted into the bizzaro world of Satanic Ritual Abuse! Like all wingnut conspiracy theorists, they play fast and loose with the rules of logic and evidence, and hope the rest of us are too stupid to notice (which we sometimes are in a society which has tried to condition critical thought out of us). Just to refresh: when you make an outlandish assertion that widespread abuse/human sacrifice is going on all around us and that huge swaths of responsible law enforcement and professionals are complacent in it, the burden is on YOU to substantiate it with evidence. No credible evidence of such has EVER been produced.

To the wingnut, of course, that fact itself becomes ironclad proof we’re all supposed to accept. If you question it, then of course you must be in on it too. The only evidence we do have related to ritual abuse is evidence that dozens of innocent people have been imprisoned on such hysteria by crooked prosecutors and unethical psychologists who manipulated and threatened children until they agreed with the statements presented to them.

Likewise, I have not seen any evidence that theft of communion hosts is widespread. The one public case of which I am aware was done on behalf of atheist PZ Meyers who then drove a nail through it on YouTube or somesuch, and I’m not even sure if that was truly a consecrated host or just a wafer bought in bulk from some supplier. In any case, this stuff belongs on a conspiracy thread or some other fanciful forum and has no germane relevance to the subject at hand.

 

[IanCorrigan]

**They conducted AN investigation and found that the claims were 100% bull? Do you have some source for this claim? **

What that refers to is the fact that the chief man in the FBI’s long special investigation of ‘satanic crime’ (Kenneth Lanning, I think) finally issued a statement saying that he had found no evidence of generational satanic cults, murder rings, baby-factories or secret underground refuges. He dismissed the whole notion of criminal satanic cults, and the FBI has held that position ever since.

From what I understand, these cults are not running around stealing babies to sacrifice for the most part. They are giving birth to them (off the grid) and then using them for that purpose.

The closest thing to evidence for such a thing is the testimony of witnesses whose assertions have never been shown to be true. All such witnesses have failed to provide the first piece of physical evidence for ‘breeders’ or for the sacrifices that they claim are made. This is a witch-legend from the middle ages, not a serious issue in law enforcement.

I know in my parish that our Eucharistic ministers are instructed to make sure the Host is consumed by the one taking it to prevent it from being taken out of the Church as this is a common practice of Satanists.

Once again, it’s funny to hear such a piece of empty superstition still repeated in church lore.
Now, when a society invests some physical object with the power and glory that the RCC gives to the host, it makes sense that obnoxious people might choose to do nasty things to the symbol of the focus of their anger. I’ll just bet that more than one POed teen has stolen a host and done whatever too it. There may even be folk-magical uses for one… I don’t know of any, though. Mostly, the host-stealing is about the legend of the black mass, which is more of a Parisian tourist-trap than a real spiritual opponent of the church.

The crimes being committed are very much behind the scenes, usually with no one to report it.

Webs of organized ideological crime don’t just continue for decades undetected. No law enforcement agency has ever… ever… actually detected a satanic baby mill or murder-temple.

 

[brotherhrolf]

*“I repeat my claim. I can develop a “religion” worshiping Cthulhu based upon H. P. Lovecraft’s short stories and novels. Doesn’t mean that Cthulhu exists. I can chant “Ia, ia, Cthulhu fthagn” till the cows come home. It has no basis in reality anymore than the inventions of the Victorians. Face it. Neo-paganism is an invention invented basically whole cloth by the Victorians.” *

At one time, Christianity had been “invented whole cloth” by a group of First Century Jews and other subjects of the Roman Empire who found something appealing in a belief system which was just coming together, assembled by men who had essentially no direct witness to the events which inspired it. Were they fools for following a “new” faith?

When I go to a doctor, most the technology used on me is half a century, or half a decade old. Am I missing out on the “real thing” because I don’t do the regimen of bloodletting prescribed by the ancients? The antiquity of a thing or an idea is a rather poor test, in and of itself. Delusions and mistakes often survive centuries as well as good ideas. The bottom line for us is whether something works. When we call our gods in circle, they come. They inspire and nurture us and often help us to grow in life-changing ways. That’s why we do it, not because we’re rabid fans of Victorian or Romantic era literture or because we see Gerald Gardner as some sort of messianic figure.

We need to draw further distinctions when we talk about the “Victorian invention” of modern paganism. The ritual forms, the sword and bell and pig Latin sounding chants are certainly inventions, but the mythology they work with follows an unbroken lineage back through the Rennaisance, the Middle Ages clear back to the Roman and Hellenic worlds, to time periods which are much older than Christianity.

Now I don’t mean to say that Christianity itself is pagan, it’s teachings set it apart in many ways, but it too has plenty of pagan DNA in its genome. NONE of its mythology surrounding key aspects of its founders life are original to it. Virgin birth on Winter Solstice, under a star, a baptist figure who is then beheaded, 12 followers, healed the sick, raised the dead, nailed to a piece of wood for humanity’s benefit, a three-day death and resurrection…all been done before. All of the major dates in the Christian calendar, or the Catholic one at least, pagan holidays.

All of the great cathedrals of Europe - packed to the rafters with pagan artwork. Let’s not even get into Rome. More high-quality pagan inspired artwork has been created there since the 15th Century than under any Caesar. When I sometimes go to Christmas Mass with family members, I find they set the finest pagan altar I’ve ever seen, piled with evergreen branches, the air filled with incense. Paganism clearly has some deep resonance with humanity with deeper roots than Victorian writers or modern-day Goth kids who like pentacles. No amount of mockery or breathless Jack Chick nonsense about Satanism will erase that, or scare off those of us who choose to drink from this ancient stream.

What you are talking about is religious syncretism which is an entirely different subject than re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. I am a Roman Catholic but I am also an anthropologist with an MA in anthropology. I make no mockery of neo-paganism nor do I engage in Jack Chick tactics. I direct your attention to what Pope Gregory the Great directed St. Augustine of Cantwaraburh to do in his conversion of the Saxons. He instructed him to use all that was good in Anglo-Saxon culture. I will be the first one to say that had Matthew Ricci been able to adapt Catholicsim to Chinese culture, history might not be the same.

I am more than familiar with Gardner. A Catholic has actually read him! I simply want to point out that those self-same Sasenach Victorians allowed my Irish ancestors to die when the graneries were full. Hardly a solid recommendation for Victorian scholarship.

We have more concrete knowledge about the religious practices of the Mayans and the Aztecs than we do about the Celts. I am not arguing this point from a theological point of view but from a historical/anthropological point of view.

I am already familiar with Astarte. She was not Celt. I am also quite familiar with St. Brighet and Brighet. Brighet is not Astarte. There is a profound disconnect between the authentic practice of Celtic religions and that which Gardner et al invented whole cloth in the Victorian era.

For the rest of you…Lord, y’all, let’s drop the taurine foecal matter that paganism equals Satanism. Satan is a Middle-Eastern concept who has no counterpart in Indo-European mythology. Pluto and Hades are not Satan anymore than Loki in Norse mythology. Way different concepts.

 

[uglygal]

Response to uglygal–Part 1 of 2

uglygal,

I share Steve’s concern for you and agree that you are being deceived. Satan and his demons can take on many forms. Satan is, indeed, the father of lies. I would definitely fear whatever is coming after you, but I am certain it is not Jesus.

It sounds like there is a battle for you soul right now. You are torn between holding fast to Christ, who is the author of our salvation; and abandoning Christ by yielding to Satan and the lies he whispers in your ear.

I spent several years working with Satanic cult survivors, trying to break the bondage of the cult. I will never forget the things I witnessed, and the things they revealed. If you fall deeply enough in Satanism, you will enter a world of darkness, one filled with ritual torture and even human sacrifice. I have lived in several different countries and numerous states in the U.S–so I will not break any confidentiality by revealing where I worked with these Satanic cult survivors.

There are many Satanist “wanttobes,” who happily go about their rituals. But once you find your way into serious Satanism; you will experience “Hell on earth,” in the things that will be done to you; and the things you will be forced to do to others. Cult survivors told us one of the things that works in their favor is that even when someone exposes the rituals; most people refuse to believe that such horrific acts are actually happening in their communities. So, the magnitude of the Satanic atrocities actually works in their favor.

What I will say to you, uglygal, is that when Jesus does come to you; I have no doubt it will be to pick you up and carry you upon His back, and gently reunite you with His flock"

Hi Anna Scott.
I don’t want to hijack this thread as it belongs to cyberwolf and posters being open to question him about his faith.
However, I do just want to say that i am NOT a satanist, never have been and never will be. I have never dabbled in the occult or satanism or paganism. I have always been catholic and I have found that to be very damaging to my soul, my self-esteem and my life as a whole. I have been on meds for years and cannot cope if I come of them. Even just recently (last week) my doctor has arranged for me to enter long-term therapy for “trauma” - something i always thought only happened to people who had lived through wars, torture etc.

I am curious to know how cyberwolf - who appears to have had a similar understanding of catholicism to me - overcame the fear of hell.

The writing by Pope John Paul II was interesting thankyou. It was different to anything I have heard before.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna Scott.
I don’t want to hijack this thread as it belongs to cyberwolf and posters being open to question him about his faith.
However, I do just want to say that i am NOT a satanist, never have been and never will be. I have never dabbled in the occult or satanism or paganism. I have always been catholic and I have found that to be very damaging to my soul, my self-esteem and my life as a whole. I have been on meds for years and cannot cope if I come of them. Even just recently (last week) my doctor has arranged for me to enter long-term therapy for “trauma” - something i always thought only happened to people who had lived through wars, torture etc.

I am curious to know how cyberwolf - who appears to have had a similar understanding of catholicism to me - overcame the fear of hell.

The writing by Pope John Paul II was interesting thankyou. It was different to anything I have heard before.

uglygal,
I was just concerned about possibilities. I’ve seen so much. I’m certain it is not Jesus who is coming after you to punish you.

I am so sorry that you are suffering. I hope the therapy is helpful.

I do understand the fear of Hell. I grew up hearing about the risk of Hell fire. I remember, when I competed reading the Old Testament; it dawned on me that there were no threats of eternal torture. As I read the New Testament, I realized the references to eternal fire or Hell were not literal.

I was very surprised by the teachings of Pope John Paul II on Hell. No fiery torment. He seems to describe a type of separation from God, by choice.

However, whenever I consider Scripture as a whole, it seems very likely that Hell is eternal death. Most people will disagree. I’m not certain at this point. (Please no flaming anyone.)

I did finally realized that God is a loving and merciful God. So, I’m trusting in His mercy. I concentrate on serving Christ and others.

I do appreciate the Jewish approach. I asked my Jewish friend (retired gentleman-he and his wife treat me like a daughter) about the Jewish view of the afterlife. He thought about it, with a rather puzzled look, and said, “I’ll have to get back to you on that.” He loves God, serves God; and has no thought whatsoever of the next life.

I will continue to pray for you, and that you will find peace, and rest, from the things that trouble you.

May God bless you and protect you in both the physical and spiritual realm.
Anna

 

[cyberwolf001]

I asked these questions of you over on the TC forum and you did not reply.

I am asking you the same thing I asked my friends years ago. There is no connection between the “authentic” (i.e. historical) worship of the pagan gods and the Victorian era fabrications of Wicca, etc.

First off I am not a Wiccan. Second off so what? We know who a good many of the gods, spirits and heroes are. The rest we can put together from the greater Indo-European culture along with inspiration from said dieties.

Should I bother telling Hrolf that Chaos Mages use the Cthulhu Mythos as if it were real?

Wouldn’t suprise me if they where to some extent. Lovecraft knew the major occultist of his time. Maybe they found something and shared it with him.

All due respect, no offense, but how did you get the title ‘prayer warrior’ on a Catholic forum if you are a neo-Pagan?

Not saying that you don’t pray; just that I am guessing on a Catholic board one is supposed to be a prayer warrior of the LORD, and not Thor or Balder or whichever.

Use to be Catholic on here. Never bothered to take it off. Also please don’t refer to me Elder Kin in such a flippant manner.

Once again, it’s funny to hear such a piece of empty superstition still repeated in church lore.

I was told this story alot in RCIA. A great way to reinforce the we are right angle. To bad I knew the real reason for Eucharistic desecration was to A: break from ones old religion (guess what faith most came from) and B: Make it difficult for them to return to there old path.

For the rest of you…Lord, y’all, let’s drop the taurine foecal matter that paganism equals Satanism. Satan is a Middle-Eastern concept who has no counterpart in Indo-European mythology. Pluto and Hades are not Satan anymore than Loki in Norse mythology. Way different concepts.

THANK YOU!

I am curious to know how cyberwolf - who appears to have had a similar understanding of catholicism to me - overcame the fear of hell.

Ya should have a PM from me.

 

[Anna_Scott]

**They conducted AN investigation and found that the claims were 100% bull? Do you have some source for this claim? **

What that refers to is the fact that the chief man in the FBI’s long special investigation of ‘satanic crime’ (Kenneth Lanning, I think) finally issued a statement saying that he had found no evidence of generational satanic cults, murder rings, baby-factories or secret underground refuges. He dismissed the whole notion of criminal satanic cults, and the FBI has held that position ever since. . . .

I’m aware of this report.

There was a time when the FBI denied that organized crime existed. We all know how that worked out.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

What if Muslims are RIGHT concerning their hell? Then you are wrong and go to hell, doesn’t that bug you? If not, then you know why non-Christians are not concenred with your hell.

No one will go to Hell simply because they believe in a different Hell - or Heaven for the same reasons. God judges us on what we know.
Glad you’re here.

 

[BouncingBall]

Use to be Catholic on here. Never bothered to take it off. Also please don’t refer to me Elder Kin in such a flippant manner.

Take a chill pill, Cyberwolf. Get over yourself. Are not Thor and Balder pagan gods? Ra? Zeus? You didn’t say who you pray to. And you started this thread to invite questions.

So not being flippant, I asked with respect. Whatever, man.

 

[cyberwolf001]

QUOTE=gurneyhalleck1;6315847]They often want to make a god in their own image and have a specialized god for different occasions.

I wish I could say not true, but I got a Wiccan friend that will swear she is an Egyptian Goddess incarnated in the flesh so…

They romanticize religions that died out and think they can resurrect them somehow into something meaningful.

No doubt we do tend to romanticize the past, but we try to keep in mind there was what actually happened and our ideal. We are trying to bring the ideal into the modern world today, or to but it another way the best of the past into today.

IF as I do you believe the Pagan Gods are real then the issue is easily resolved about the resurrecting part. If the Gods exist the religion will return.

I’d like to ask you, and I do ask respectfully, what draws you to this pagan thinking and do you seriously believe in it?

I think we are all meant to be Pagan. Look at the extent the Church went to in order to end Paganism last time. Crusades, lays forbidding the worship with horrible penalties ect. Once they where lifted Pagans came into out.

For my part the Gods, Spirits and Ancestors draw me.

I really and seriously beleive in them. Kinda hard not too when you see and interact with them so often.

Do you actually truly buy into it and were you ever a Christian?

I have just now started prepetual offerings of oil to Odin and I am preparing a series of booklets for ADF to explain our faith and spread devotion to the Gods. I bit like the booklets Tan Publishing does, I keep finding more of those and rosaries in my room (THEY’RE BREEDING I TELLS YOU!) as you may have guessed an Ex-Catholic. A convert actually Tiber Swimteam 2007. I look back on it about the same way some ex-Pagan Catholics look on there time in Paganism.

What makes you choose paganism over the Risen Christ? You seem like a charitable, intelligent poster, just curious.

Honestly they don’t try to rule via fear. They do not use the threat of eternal torment to make people love them. As I studied and drew closer to Christ and learned about him from the Priests, Saints and my Catholic friends well…

As you know Jesus is described as loving us and his trying to win us like a man after his beloved. This made me realise somthing. Let us extend the metaphor to Pagan Gods, as the Bible compares going after Gods other than the Christian one to going out as a Harlot (Deuteronomy 31:16 for example.)

Now if you’ll humor me Jesus came across as the abusive, controlling kind of husband. I’ll stop there for the sake of charity.

The Pagan gods in contrast are like a family or better a clan/tribe. They invite you in, get to know you and if all goes well your welcomed into the community. Your built up to stand on your own two feet, the community is there and you are a vitale part of it.

When you fall the Clan picks you up, you can meet and make friends, lovers, buisness partners and yes even rivals and enemies. You can go and meet other clans, you might be warned this person is trouble but your choice to interact with them is still honored, the consequences are yours however… (I recall an ADF Yule Rite that invoked the Norse Gods along with ever evil spirit in the Norse pantheon… Didn’t go well…)

Hope my half asleep rambling made sense. I have been working with only one day off Friday Feb 19th since Dec 29th last year.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t believe the pagan gods are or ever were, real. They are figments of man’s imagination. Men grew tired and weary of the one, true God of the Scriptures. He calls us to change our lives, to control our appetites, to pray and fast and to put our faith in Him in a deep way. He has discipline and order that He calls us to. Pagans fashioned their own idols and placed in these idols themselves. These gods become what the pagan wants them to become. They are false. When I say that pagans are restless souls wanting to resurrect these “gods” I say so in the context that they want to resurrect a notion, an idea, a long-since-vanished pipedream, not a legitimate god that exists to be literally resurrected.

No doubt we do tend to romanticize the past, but we try to keep in mind there was what actually happened and our ideal. We are trying to bring the ideal into the modern world today, or to but it another way the best of the past into today.

IF as I do you believe the Pagan Gods are real then the issue is easily resolved about the resurrecting part. If the Gods exist the religion will return.

I think we are all meant to be Pagan. Look at the extent the Church went to in order to end Paganism last time. Crusades, lays forbidding the worship with horrible penalties ect. Once they where lifted Pagans came into out.

For my part the Gods, Spirits and Ancestors draw me.
When and how have you “interacted with them?” Are you claiming you’ve heard their voices or seen visions, etc.?
I really and seriously beleive in them. Kinda hard not too when you see and interact with them so often.

Honestly they don’t try to rule via fear. They do not use the threat of eternal torment to make people love them. As I studied and drew closer to Christ and learned about him from the Priests, Saints and my Catholic friends well…

As you know Jesus is described as loving us and his trying to win us like a man after his beloved. This made me realise somthing. Let us extend the metaphor to Pagan Gods, as the Bible compares going after Gods other than the Christian one to going out as a Harlot (Deuteronomy 31:16 for example.)
What led you to feel that way? Jesus simply speaks the truth as God has given it to Him. As Christ says, His yoke is light. I can’t think of anything abusive about a God willing to take on human flesh, dwell in poverty among us taking on the same sickness, tiredness, frustrations, hard labor, loneliness, rejection, and living amongst the same evils, how that can be the actions of an abusive god? He dwelled among us, submitted to secular authorities in a humiliating way, was stricken down, beated, flogged, flagellated, humiliated, mortified, was rejected by mankind, and nailed to a horrible Cross. All He asks is our faith, our love reciprocated, our charity, to live the example He lived out for us, and to trust in His mercy. He gives us sacraments as lifelines, a hand reached out when we fall, constantly puts up with our idiotic failings and petty stupidity, our sins and selfish nature. He healed so many, changed lives and continues to change millions of lives, and was willing to reach out to the marginalized souls like non-Jews, adulterers, tax collectors, Romans, Samaritans, the poor, the diseased, the rejected. I fail to see the abusive nature of Christ…only the salvific, the kind, the merciful, the loving Christ. I’m sorry you perceived Our Lord this way.
Now if you’ll humor me Jesus came across as the abusive, controlling kind of husband. I’ll stop there for the sake of charity.

The Pagan gods in contrast are like a family or better a clan/tribe. They invite you in, get to know you and if all goes well your welcomed into the community. Your built up to stand on your own two feet, the community is there and you are a vitale part of it.

When you fall the Clan picks you up, you can meet and make friends, lovers, buisness partners and yes even rivals and enemies. You can go and meet other clans, you might be warned this person is trouble but your choice to interact with them is still honored, the consequences are yours however… (I recall an ADF Yule Rite that invoked the Norse Gods along with ever evil spirit in the Norse pantheon… Didn’t go well…)
Christ, the blessed Virgin Mary, Joseph were indeed a Holy Family, the holiest ever. God our Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, along with the vast communion of Saints and the Church are the spiritual family for all-time. The saints pray for us, the BVM interceeds and prays constantly for us, Our Lord intercedes before the Father in deep love, and here on earth we pray for the dead and one another. A family indeed, right?And there are tons of folks who meet romantically, with business, and other relationships in the Church as well, right?
Hope my half asleep rambling made sense. I have been working with only one day off Friday Feb 19th since Dec 29th last year.

Take care of yourself. Take a day off, friend, and don’t work yourself into oblivion! We Americans work too blasted hard with too few vacations. Rest a bit and ease off, ok! Take it easy!

 

[Belathene]

I apologize in advance for what will probably be a very long post, but in this case, it’s a bit necessary.

I’m going to attempt to give my own perspective on neopaganism and my own spiritual path, since my views do differ from those of cyberwolf and others in ADF–indeed, I think you’d be hard pressed to find two members of ADF who agree on every aspect of their personal path. In my opinion, that’s a very good thing. Anyway, I’m not here to say that cyberwolf or any other ADF member is wrong- please keep this in mind. I’m here only to give my own opinion, and open myself up to questions from anyone else. Cyberwolf, if you want me to shut up, just let me know, and I will.

Let me first say that I am a former Catholic. I won’t give details on my conversion to, or from, Catholicism, beyond those that are contained in this post or are absolutely necessary relevant to the topic of discussion. It’s simply too personal, and I humbly request that people respect my privacy on this. I am now a Neo-Pagan druid. This is how I define myself, not how anyone else defines me–this, in my mind, is essential to neo-pagan thought. We are druids, or witches, or heathens because we choose to call ourselves such.

Here is where my views may get controversial, even amongst neopagans.

I don’t see neopaganism as a religion. At least, I don’t see it as a religion as is commonly meant by the word. There is no doctrine or dogma, there is no core set of required beliefs. I don’t even think there’s a SINGLE required belief. ADF is a church in the sense that we are a community of neo-pagans who happen to get positive results from the liturgical structure of ADF rites, amongst other things. It is not a church in the sense that anyone is required to believe anything to be a part of it, and members are (correct me if I’m wrong, other ADF-ers) welcome to pursue any other path simultaneously with ADF. If a member chooses to take the Dedicant’s Oath (more information on that can be found on ADF’s website, and it’s completely optional for any ADF member), then ADF druidry will become their primary path–but not their only path.

Cont’d…

 

[Belathene]

ADF, for its part, assumes a “hard polytheist” perspective for the sake of consistency in liturgy. Assuming that prevents ritual from becoming confusing, and from becoming exclusive and divisive among the attendees. I’ve never personally heard this referenced during rituals with my grove, but hard polytheism is the idea that the gods exist, they are real beings, and they are separate beings with their own personalities and wills–they are not archetypes, or different parts of one god or god/goddess combo. Generally, ADF ritual treats the gods as such- but anyone with a different view can still participate and find fulfillment and meaning in ritual, they just need to view the ritual in a slightly different light. I’d hazard a guess that most ADF members are polytheistic, but I’ve met some who are monistic, pantheist, panentheist, henotheist, take your pick.

For my own part, my reasons for believing in multiple, varied and personally different gods are philosophical in nature. I won’t get into this here, because the arguments are long, and complicated, and I’m pretty sure would break the rule about “no lengthy posts.” If anyone wants to know the philosophical arguments behind polytheism (at least as I see it), I would direct you to John Michael Greer’s book A World Full of Gods. He does a wonderful job of examining arguments for and against monotheism, atheism, and polytheism, much better than I could ever hope to explain.

These things being said, I can’t say that my religion holds the ultimate truth, or ultimate reality of life. Believing in many gods necessitates believing in multiple approaches to worship of those gods. If I wish to approach YHWH, certainly the best way to do so would be using Judeo-Christian ritual and prayer-but not the only way. Likewise, to approach Athena, I would probably use a Greek style rite, with Greek language as much as I could. This is not to say these gods would not accept being approached in another manner- obviously, if Athena expected all who approach her to use ancient Greek language and proper ancient Greek ritual, she’d have no followers whatsoever today. Likewise, YHWH hears prayers in English, as well as Latin, Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, and any other language. The gods are not mutually exclusive, and neither are the methods with which we approach them.

I disagree with cyberwolf on one very important point–I don’t think we’re all meant to be pagan, at least not in a neo-pagan sense. If your way of approaching your god works for you, then hey, more power to you. My approach works for my gods. I don’t expect anyone to adopt my approach, or even my gods, simply because I say it’s right. I’m quite glad for religious diversity, actually. If everyone agreed, there would be no discussion like this–and I like this discussion.

As far as my experience with personal and spiritual growth as a pagan, druidry has, I believe, led me to be a better person overall. I am healthier, happier, and more at peace with myself and the world around me. I have more patience and tolerance, and a greater capacity to love. I am more mindful of my surroundings, environmental and otherwise, and I am more motivated to activate change for the better in those areas. I have a greater sense of personal responsibility, and I have a greater ability to see all sides of an issue before making a decision–this, to me, is the essence of wisdom. I’m not perfect, obviously, but I’m better than I was as a Catholic.

Generally speaking, I give honor to all deities. This is very, very generally speaking- it is impossible to name every deity every time I pray or give offerings, especially because I don’t think we even know the names of all deities. So, I give offerings to the Shining Ones- a term used to encompass all gods and goddesses. I have a personal relationship with a handful of deities, namely Athena, Belenos, Brigando, Apollo, and Odin. I work primarily within the Greek pantheon if I’m in need of a particular deity or spirit, but this is mainly because I know a lot more about the Greek pantheon than other pantheons. The relationship I have with these deities has been gained and built in a number of ways–dreams, visions, meditation, ritual, and other assorted experiences interacting with them on a personal level.

Personally, I don’t think about an afterlife much. It’s just not that important to me. I don’t acknowledge any kind of eternal punishment, because I believe that the gods love us, and don’t wish to see any of their children in eternal pain. Some pain may be necessary, just as setting a broken bone is painful, but required for healing. This pain, though, never takes on an eternal timespan.

Cont’d…

 

[Belathene]

It is important to note that there do exist neopagan reconstructionists- those that wish to reinstate the old religions exactly as they were practiced thousands of years ago. I am not one of these. I acknowledge the reality of those gods, and I do not deny that the methods those ancient peoples had of connecting with their gods worked, but at the same time, I recognize that not all of those methods are valid today. ADF’s ritual structure is in no way identical to that of any ancient people. It is very modern. It does, however, work–so we keep using it. Certain methods of the ancients are either unrealistic or just a generally bad idea today- we would never carve names onto lead tablets and throw them into a lake that could become someone’s drinking supply, even though this was done in some cultures. I don’t think we’re resurrecting the gods, either. They are immortal, and have no need to be ressurected- rediscovered, in large part, but they’ve always been there. They’re just not very pushy.

I don’t know that I believe in sin in the sense that it’s meant in Christianity. We can do wrong, yes. But those wrongs are not because we’ve broken a law of the gods, or because we’ve done something to separate ourselves from the gods. Wrong, to me, is harm to oneself or another person- emotionally, spiritually, physically, etc., where it can be avoided. (Telling someone their great aunt is succumbing to cancer would no doubt be hurtful, but it’s better than telling them nothing until she died and was already buried.)

All in all, I see faith as divided into three things: right belief, right intention, and right action. Of the three, right belief is the least important thing to me. Right action is most important, but where I fail to act rightly, then my intentions are justly important. It doesn’t matter if my philosophy is exactly correct. For me, this is because I don’t think anyone can KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, and be able to PROVE what the exact reality of the universe is. Philosophers have debated it for thousands of years with no common consensus, because no argument is without holes or flaws. It just happens to be that polytheism, to me, has the least number of holes, and so I’m a polytheist. I choose neo-paganism as my path because it allows me the freedom to explore my relationships with the divine in a way more structured, dogmatic religions do not. I choose ADF as my church because I have experienced extremely positive things within their suggested ritual outline and within the community as a whole.

So this is my viewpoint. Again, I’m speaking only on my behalf, so don’t take what I say as true for any other person- even those things that I’ve said concerning ADF are my own take on things. Thanks for bearing with me on the length of this.

May the Kindred bless you all.

 

[kenofken]

The bottom line of why I, and I think Cyberwolf, take our pagan practices seriously is because they provide US with a truer link to the divine than does any other religion, including Catholicism. I didn’t leave the RCC as a way to put a stick in the eye of its believers. I don’t presume to know what they’re doing is wrong. I only know that most of it doesn’t ring true for ME in my heart of hearts.

I don’t think anyone can go far wrong by letting the example of (most of) Jesus’ day to day life guide their actions, but I don’t believe in 99% of the rest. The need for salvation, Christ as a divine being, the authority of the church, sin, you name it. I didn’t leave as a fashion statement or because the teaching on birth control stuck in my craw, etc. It was deep, basic stuff, and I wasn’t about to sit there and go through the motions to please family or the Catholic establisment. I accept the possiblility that I MIGHT be wrong. However, I live life by my own conscience, and I am not afraid of being judged on that basis. Any deity who would cast me into hell for that, I wouldn’t want to spend a 3-day weekend with anyway, let alone eternity.

If the paganism is really just a long-dead fanciful musing, why is it that the Church has had to work 24/7 for 15 centuries to suppress it? They managed to eradicate it’s open practice for centuries, but the consciousness of it was never more than an inch below the surface. It influenced the Church itself deeply. So much so that protestants felt that the Roman church had become little more than a hybrid of the worst aspects of paganism and Christianity

Are many people attracted to neo-paganism as a way to justify their own actions in a non-dogmatic system? Of course. We, and not Christians, bear the brunt of those fools. That said, Catholicism certainly has its share of those folks too. You call them cafeteria Catholics. How many thousands of dukes, kings, bishops and businessmen have leveraged their faith as a path to power while privately rolling their eyes at it? It’s kind of sad and infuriating for serious Catholics, but I think we can agree it doesnt’ invalidate the faith for the rest of you.

There is also a lot of outward silliness associated with paganism today, and I think that chap’s Gurney’s hide more than anything else. Yes, we do get the folks who like to wear fairy wings and the Ren Faire refugees. Many are as flaky as they look. Others are very serious beautiful people who just have their eccentricities. As a collection of religions with no central authority or formal entry requirements, we get plenty of dross with the gold. All pagans are explorers, and all explorers are misfits, but not all misfits are true explorers. Some are just misfits. Again, to turn the tables on this point, Catholicism has some outward silliness as well. Much of the gear worn by cardinals and popes looks like the pimp suits of the 1970s cop shows. But it’s not central to what the faith is about, so we shouldn’t get hung up on it.

Last but not least, there is the matter of conversion experiences. Coming into my own as a pagan some years ago was like being called home to my lost family and finding a piece of who I really was. A year after that, I had a full-blown conversion experience. It was too much to try to summarize in a few words here, but I’ll simply say it shook me to the core and still brings a few tears of joy when I reflect on it. So that’s why I follow this supposedly long-dead path. Take it as you will.

 

[cyberwolf001]

When I say that pagans are restless souls wanting to resurrect these “gods” I say so in the context that they want to resurrect a notion, an idea, a long-since-vanished pipedream, not a legitimate god that exists to be literally resurrected.

For me personally we are not resurrecting but reconnecting. The Gods never left us, we left them.

When and how have you “interacted with them?” Are you claiming you’ve heard their voices or seen visions, etc.?

Sometimes voices, sometimes visions, someimes just as real as a person infront of me and sometimes it was like an after image you know if you look at a white on black image and turn your head after so long.

What led you to feel that way? Jesus simply speaks the truth as God has given it to Him. As Christ says, His yoke is light.

The writings of the Saints and the show “One True Faith” just listen to the Joy of the Faith (Cathilic faith that is) episode. He goes on about pain, suffering and being persecuted. Basicly if your not suffering and under attack your doing something wrong.

I

can’t think of anything abusive about a God willing to take on human flesh, dwell in poverty among us taking on the same sickness, tiredness, frustrations, hard labor, loneliness, rejection, and living amongst the same evils, how that can be the actions of an abusive god?

Our gods are always amongst us. They have flesh and blood. The work hard and experiance our pain and pain of there own. Witness the death of Bauldr.

He dwelled among us, submitted to secular authorities in a humiliating way, was stricken down, beated, flogged, flagellated, humiliated, mortified, was rejected by mankind, and nailed to a horrible Cross.

I’ve seen this story told a few other times in different legends.

All He asks is our faith, our love reciprocated, our charity, to live the example He lived out for us, and to trust in His mercy.

And if you don’t he shall torture you forever.

Christ, the blessed Virgin Mary, Joseph were indeed a Holy Family, the holiest ever. God our Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, along with the vast communion of Saints and the Church are the spiritual family for all-time. The saints pray for us, the BVM interceeds and prays constantly for us, Our Lord intercedes before the Father in deep love, and here on earth we pray for the dead and one another. A family indeed, right?

Just like the spirits. Only instead of Jesus asking them to ask him to do it, our dieties get up and do it themselves.

Seriously look at the prayer for Foulten Sheen to intercede. Your asking Jesus to ask Foulten to ask him to do something for you…

And there are tons of folks who meet romantically, with business, and other relationships in the Church as well, right?

No different than our circles, and I hear complained about all the time in the Liturgy section. People talking to much to close to the sanctuary, only coming to meet people ect.

Hope my half asleep rambling made sense. I have been working with only one day off Friday Feb 19th since Dec 29th last year.

Take care of yourself. Take a day off, friend, and don’t work yourself into oblivion! We Americans work too blasted hard with too few vacations. Rest a bit and ease off, ok! Take it easy!

If I could I would, but this is a red fire at will state with a bad economy. I can’t do much, and people wonder why I have socialist leanings.

 

[cyberwolf001]

ICyberwolf, if you want me to shut up, just let me know, and I will.

Say your piece Belathene! The more of us on here the better.

Here is where my views may get controversial, even amongst neopagans.

I don’t see neopaganism as a religion.

HERETIC! ERIS READY THE COMFY CHAIR AND THE PILLOWS FOR POKING HER! (This thread needed a good laugh to ligten the tone and a Mounty Python reference is always good).

It is not a church in the sense that anyone is required to believe anything to be a part of it, and members are (correct me if I’m wrong, other ADF-ers) welcome to pursue any other path simultaneously with ADF. If a member chooses to take the Dedicant’s Oath (more information on that can be found on ADF’s website, and it’s completely optional for any ADF member), then ADF druidry will become their primary path–but not their only path.

Cont’d…

You are correct. Although I think ADF could stand a little more orthodoxy, that’s just my view. I think a little orthodoxy never hurt anyone, alot however is another story.

I would direct you to John Michael Greer’s book A World Full of Gods. He does a wonderful job of examining arguments for and against monotheism, atheism, and polytheism, much better than I could ever hope to explain.

I really wanna read that one.

The gods are not mutually exclusive, and neither are the methods with which we approach them.

I’d disagree to an extent. Never invoke Frigga and Loki together for example and I’d suggest strongly against outright disrespect in worship also it isn’t wise to use sex in the worship of Artims who is forever a virgin.

I disagree with cyberwolf on one very important point–I don’t think we’re all meant to be pagan, at least not in a neo-pagan sense.

I don’t think everyone will be, but as time goes on we shall I feel see society revert back to normal and these last 2,000 years but looked on as an oddity.

I have more patience and tolerance, and a greater capacity to love. I am more mindful of my surroundings, environmental and otherwise, and I am more motivated to activate change for the better in those areas. I have a greater sense of personal responsibility, and I have a greater ability to see all sides of an issue before making a decision–this, to me, is the essence of wisdom. I’m not perfect, obviously, but I’m better than I was as a Catholic.

It never ceases to amaze me how often I hear this from other Pagans.

I have a personal relationship with a handful of deities, namely Athena, Belenos, Brigando, Apollo, and Odin. I work primarily within the Greek pantheon if I’m in need of a particular deity or spirit, but this is mainly because I know a lot more about the Greek pantheon than other pantheons. The relationship I have with these deities has been gained and built in a number of ways–dreams, visions, meditation, ritual, and other assorted experiences interacting with them on a personal level.

Odin is the first god whom I am inviting to stay permantly in my home (getting a statue of him). I eventually want to get one of Apollo as well. When I see the sun sometimes I say a short prayer "To the every lasting light of the sun, shines the name of Holy Apollo

Personally, I don’t think about an afterlife much. It’s just not that important to me. I don’t acknowledge any kind of eternal punishment, because I believe that the gods love us, and don’t wish to see any of their children in eternal pain. Some pain may be necessary, just as setting a broken bone is painful, but required for healing. This pain, though, never takes on an eternal timespan.

The lore speaks of realms of punishment for evil beings, but I don’t think it is eternal. I recall Sisyphus being released on orders of Posphrone. Also Heracles freeing Promethus, Atlas and I beleive some others from there torments. It seems the gods can and do at times do this.

[Apologies for butchering greek names]

CONTINUED

 

[cyberwolf001]

It is important to note that there do exist neopagan reconstructionists- those that wish to reinstate the old religions exactly as they were practiced thousands of years ago. I am not one of these. I acknowledge the reality of those gods, and I do not deny that the methods those ancient peoples had of connecting with their gods worked, but at the same time, I recognize that not all of those methods are valid today.

Same for the recons as well. There are lines they will not cross.

ADF’s ritual structure is in no way identical to that of any ancient people. It is very modern. It does, however, work–so we keep using it. Certain methods of the ancients are either unrealistic or just a generally bad idea today- we would never carve names onto lead tablets and throw them into a lake that could become someone’s drinking supply, even though this was done in some cultures.

Skin’s book The Solitary Druid talks about that and recommends a few non-poisonus metals to use in place of them.

They are immortal, and have no need to be ressurected- rediscovered, in large part, but they’ve always been there. They’re just not very pushy.

Said it before and will say it again. The gods didn’t leave us, we left them.

I don’t know that I believe in sin in the sense that it’s meant in Christianity.

I do believe the idea has some Pagan worth. Crimes against the gods and others, ADF speaks of atonement offerings but you don’t see them much. It’s along the lines of I offended you and I am sorry please accept this offering as a sign of my contrition.

I personally do a purification ritual on the eve of Easter the aniversary of my betraying my oaths to the Gods when I converted to Catholicism.

All in all, I see faith as divided into three things: right belief, right intention, and right action. Of the three, right belief is the least important thing to me. Right action is most important, but where I fail to act rightly, then my intentions are justly important.

To an extent I agree, but depending on the action your intentions may not become a factor or might only listen the Gods wraith upon you.

It just happens to be that polytheism, to me, has the least number of holes, and so I’m a polytheist. I choose neo-paganism as my path because it allows me the freedom to explore my relationships with the divine in a way more structured, dogmatic religions do not. I choose ADF as my church because I have experienced extremely positive things within their suggested ritual outline and within the community as a whole.

So this is my viewpoint. Again, I’m speaking only on my behalf, so don’t take what I say as true for any other person- even those things that I’ve said concerning ADF are my own take on things. Thanks for bearing with me on the length of this.

Ditto I am a Polytheist. I wish ADF has a bit more structure and a tad more orthodoxy but I do so love my Church.

May the Kindred bless you all.

And you as well my friend by Land, Sky and Sea.

If the paganism is really just a long-dead fanciful musing, why is it that the Church has had to work 24/7 for 15 centuries to suppress it?

I would love to hear an answer to this one. Along with why it took bloodshed and violence and brutal laws to supress it in the first place.

I admit I am one of those oddballs that would wear robes everday as my normal clothing if I could, but not ina safe idea in my area. Besides I’d be sending the wrong message, maybe someday…