Neo-Paganism Q&A

[lil_flower_luv]

Gurney you seem determined to keep calling Paganism a fad dispite the fact even the Neo-Pagan faith is anywhere from 60 to a couple of hundred years old.

You say there was no resistance or attempted revivals of Paganism, when I mentioned some survived you just claimed it didn’t count.

It’s like your trying your best to only believe the sterotypes of the Faith instead of looking at it for what it is.

Definition of “Faith”

religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power.
;a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

You call paganism a faith, cyberwolf?

 

[cyberwolf001]

Definition of “Faith”

religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power.
;a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

You call paganism a faith, cyberwolf?

Yes I do. Around my neck I where a medallion that is an oath to Odin that says “I am ready to die at your will.” If that isn’t a sign of faith I dunno what is.

 

[Timothy17]

There are no more pagans, as history knew them. In the modern Western context paganism is a product of the modern culture, not the culture of “neopaganism” a product of the real pagans of history.

Pagan philosophers like Plato openly advocated state manipulation of their holy things, be they writings or worship forms, to serve the political agenda. Men were, ultimately, the real “gods,” and those who held, acquired and maintained political power were seen as worthy to determine religion. Paganism respected power. This teaching was neither censured nor rebuked. There were no riots when pagan philosophers claimed this. No martyrs on behalf of paganism ever resulted. In fact, the “martyrs” of paganism were the pagan philosophers who declared such things, and were punished by the State (what everyone knows but no one says). To put it bluntly, even historical accounts of pagan belief and ritual is not necessarily accurate or true to itself, for we know what pagans believed in regards to their own religions. It was seen as a means to man’s ends, and if a clever man did just that, he was praised for it, by his contemporaries and by their prodigy. I think the real “oddity” about paganism was that it was, at least, honest insomuch as it realized it was but a veil at best for the true divine: truths could be gleamed from time to time from it, as if almost by accident, but the beliefs, rituals and lore was not necessarily accurate or even sound for doctrines, except in the case of rules for military discipline and rule, which proved quite fruitful in the case of the Romans and the Greeks, though the victims of their success may not have appreciated it.

Paganism was a filler for man’s religious appetite. Its lack of authority permitted and perhaps even encouraged the development of Western philosophy (it could even be argued that philosophy was a necessary supplement for paganism, which failed to provide consistent or objective truths).

If you want to be a true and good “pagan”, study philosophy religiously. In time you are bound to long for an image of the True Logos, and find your way back to that Logos and that Truth which those pagans you emulate so desperately longed and craved for. And, like true pagans, don’t put too much weight in the ritual or the lore .

You might be surprised by just what the pagans had to say about true “divinity,” and why so many of them found it hard to put any real faith in their ancestors’ religions, and why so many of their philosophers converted to, and were early champions of, Catholicism. Ask a Seventh Day Adventist, they will be happy to lecture you about a conspiracy wherein pagans hijacked primitive Christianity and produced Catholicism; of course, they may neglect to inform you that those same pagans were some of the chief philosophers of their day, the brightest and noblest of minds who, upon discovering Catholicism, openly and vehemently condemned paganism. They had found the light they were searching for, as it were.

Pax,
Tim

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Yes I do. Around my neck I where a medallion that is an oath to Odin that says “I am ready to die at your will.” If that isn’t a sign of faith I dunno what is.

I see. So you truly believe in a higher power?

 

[Eris_Discordia]

Definition of “Faith”

religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power.
;a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

You call paganism a faith, cyberwolf?

So do I. It is a belief in a divine power. It’s also loosely organized. Druids are more strict with organization, I think. Granted I know little about Druids, so feel free to correct me, cyberwolf.

 

[Belathene]

I see. So you truly believe in a higher power?

I’m pretty sure I remember both cyberwolf and I stating rather clearly that we are both polytheistic. We believe in multiple gods, all of which are “higher” than humans. There would be no reason to practice this particular religion without the belief in a higher power or powers to back it up- I’d hazard a guess that most current practicing pagans are converts from other religions. I’d also hazard a guess that most did not convert because they thought it would be “cool” or “easier,” but because they believed in the truth of it.

 

[Belathene]

There are no more pagans, as history knew them. In the modern Western context paganism is a product of the modern culture, not the culture of “neopaganism” a product of the real pagans of history. And? I’m not sure I understand your last sentence. I’ve never claimed that neopaganism is a direct result of ancient pagan culture, or that the two are exactly the same. Ancient pagan culture is a MODEL for neopaganism, in much the same way as ancient Greek democracy was a model for American democracy-obviously, Athenian democracy failed horribly, so we’d be completely stupid to try and replicate that exactly. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have good ideas that were worthy of respect.

Pagan philosophers like Plato openly advocated state manipulation of their holy things, be they writings or worship forms, to serve the political age. Can you show me where Plato says anything of the sort? I’ve read most of his works, and I certainly didn’t take this from them. In The Trial and Death of Socrates, he makes a point of CRITICIZING the state for persecuting the philosophers who disagreed with the common thought. He was arguing FOR the freedom of thought and action, not against it. Men were, ultimately, the real “gods,” and those who held, acquired and maintained political power were seen as worthy to determine religion. Again, give me a source for this. At no time in Ancient Greece was religion controlled by the state. By the culture, by society, certainly, but never by the state. They had laws specifically against this sort of thing. Paganism respected power. This teaching was neither censured nor rebuked. There were no riots when pagan philosophers claimed this. No martyrs on behalf of paganism ever resulted. In fact, the “martyrs” of paganism were the pagan philosophers who declared such things, and were punished by the State (what everyone knows but no one says). What you just said is a contradiction. “There were no riots when the pagan philosophers taught, but they were still killed?” If the pagan philosophers respected and taught that those in power should determine religion, then why would the STATE of all things punish them? Let’s not forget that the jury that condemned Socrates of “corrupting the youth of Athens” was a council of over 500 men, all citizens, all chosen by lottery- 500 men who very seriously opposed him and sentenced him to death for teaching his ideas (which were, in fact, consistent with pagan thought at the time). Athens didn’t HAVE a singular ruler- most city states didn’t. To put it bluntly, even historical accounts of pagan belief and ritual is not necessarily accurate or true to itself, for we know what pagans believed in regards to their own religions. Again, a contradiction. Historical accounts of their beliefs aren’t accurate, because we know what they believed? How, per se, do you know what they believed, if not for historical accounts? You, like us, have only a best guess. We, however, have taken that best guess and TRIED it, to see if it did actually work. When it did, we kept doing it. When it didn’t, we discarded it. We wouldn’t worship the way we do if we weren’t getting results from it. It was seen as a means to man’s ends, and if a clever man did just that, he was praised for it, by his contemporaries and by their prodigy. I think the real “oddity” about paganism was that it was, at least, honest insomuch as it realized it was but a veil at best for the true divine: truths could be gleamed from time to time from it, as if almost by accident, but the beliefs, rituals and lore was not necessarily accurate or even sound for doctrines, except in the case of rules for military discipline and rule, which proved quite fruitful in the case of the Romans and the Greeks, though the victims of their success may not have appreciated it. Again, give me a source for this. Tell me exactly how you KNOW the motivations of the pagans in that era- particularly in Greece and Rome, where most worship took place in Mystery Cults–which we have almost NO information on. They were, after all, a mystery. The point is, paganism had no doctrines, and saw no need for them. We still see no need for doctrine. Personally, I still subscribe to that old pagan philosophical belief that we cannot truly KNOW anything at all, we can only guess. To me, subscribing to an absolute, unchanging doctrine is to set yourself up for destruction, because you are unable to recognize a more correct guess when you see it.

Paganism was a filler for man’s religious appetite. Its lack of authority permitted and perhaps even encouraged the development of Western philosophy (it could even be argued that philosophy was a necessary supplement for paganism, which failed to provide consistent or objective truths). Philosophy was a result of the Greek and Roman wealthy to spend their time. Seriously. They had nothing better to do, so started thinking about thought, belief, the universe, metaphysics, you name it. That’s how mathematics came about, too. Paganism was as much a filler for man’s religious appetite as Christianity was.

 

[Belathene]

If you want to be a true and good “pagan”, study philosophy religiously. In time you are bound to long for an image of the True Logos, and find your way back to that Logos and that Truth which those pagans you emulate so desperately longed and craved for. And, like true pagans, don’t put too much weight in the ritual or the lore . I am, actually. The more I study, and the more I think, the more I am lead to polytheistic belief. You’re once again mistaken on a very important part of history–ancient paganism was ABOUT the ritual. No one cared what you believed, as long as you performed the proper rituals. Although, if you insist, I’ll forget about the ritual and lore, and continue looking at the Bible as a storybook and the Church rituals as nothing but another form of worship. No big deal, really. What I long and crave for, as you put it, is fulfilled in my current pagan practice.

You might be surprised by just what the pagans had to say about true “divinity,” and why so many of them found it hard to put any real faith in their ancestors’ religions, and why so many of their philosophers converted to, and were early champions of, Catholicism. Ask a Seventh Day Adventist, they will be happy to lecture you about a conspiracy wherein pagans hijacked primitive Christianity and produced Catholicism; of course, they may neglect to inform you that those same pagans were some of the chief philosophers of their day, the brightest and noblest of minds who, upon discovering Catholicism, openly and vehemently condemned paganism. They had found the light they were searching for, as it were. You forget about the numerous other philosophers who were put to death for disagreeing. History is written by the victor- we don’t have the writings of many ancient philosophers, and many didn’t write down what they were teaching. Of course, you’ll say that it’s the brightest and noblest of minds who agree with you, and certainly, we have a greater volume of writings from Catholic philosophers. That makes sense- the Catholic Church, for a long time, exercised a considerable amount of control on what books were to be saved or destroyed. That doesn’t mean they’re correct. They were not the “chief philosophers” because they had the better ideas, they were the “chief philosophers” because their ideas went along with the group that was gaining power. Really, the idea that the ancient pagans had a hard time believing their ancestor’s religions is just… uninformed. Number one, you have no way of knowing what every single one of them thought. Number two, what about those generations and generations of pagans BEFORE Christianity? They didn’t have a problem at all. Number three, as I and many others here have stated before, belief was not an incredibly important factor in pagan religion. Practice was important. When the practice was suppressed, and the temples were destroyed, the religion dwindled, for obvious reasons. I don’t see why this is so hard to understand.

Pax,
Tim

You may be surprised to learn how many neopagans actually view “divinity,” and how many of them have studied philosophy to come to this belief. I am not uninformed, and I am not unthinking. I have reasons for believing that doing what works is what’s best- I’m not doing it because it makes me happy. Happiness is a pleasant side effect. I would do what made me unhappy, if I thought it was right.

 

[kenofken]

You may be surprised to learn how many neopagans actually view “divinity,” and how many of them have studied philosophy to come to this belief. I am not uninformed, and I am not unthinking. I have reasons for believing that doing what works is what’s best- I’m not doing it because it makes me happy. Happiness is a pleasant side effect. I would do what made me unhappy, if I thought it was right.

That’s one of the biggest misconceptions Christians and other have about us: the notion that our religions are simply justifications for libertine excess or a happy fantasy version of reality. I have found the opposite to be true. If I merely wanted to act out of self-serving nihlist reasons, I could do so very easily without all of the time and effort and heart I pour into my practice of Wicca.

In fact, it could be said I lived more along those lines in the years before I was Wiccan, when I was more or less just a resentful ex-Catholic turned agnostic/materialist. Cheap happiness, or perhaps blissful stupidity, was easy to pull off in those days. Wicca, on the other hand, calls us to live in full responsibility, full awareness and calls us to confront and improve every aspect of ourselves.

Some of the most painful, transformative and valuable lessons of my life have come to me on this path. Just about two years after I formally dedicated and began my study, life as I knew it came apart at the seams. I was betrayed by the leader of my coven and thrown out on a pretext of lies and manipulation. I lost the companionship of a woman I love beyond all measure. I ruptured a disc in my spine, a condition so painful I sometimes lost control of my breathing and vision, and went from a seemingly indestructible young guy to an invalid. As bad as all those things were, they led me to important realization and better places in my life. They were important initiatory experiences, and I don’t think I could be persuaded to go back in time and change them if I could.

Witchcraft did not CAUSE these things. What it did do was make it virtually impossible for me to live my life in an unbalanced way or ways that were not true to myself. Each one of those disasters I had been able to forsee. It was only when I ingnored the subtle and repeated signs that I suffered the consequences, and gained wisdom by a rockier road. On pagan forums, I frequently try to warn off young people who think my path is a good place to dress up and hide out from reality. Sometimes Goddess speaks to us through a mother’s soft whisper. Other times, the delivery of Her wisdom comes with all the subtlety of a skinhead’s steel toe Doc Martens across your head. No sir, paganism is not for those who are afraid to confront the truth.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Ken you have to look at where we’re all coming from here being Catholic in a Catholic forum. We confess Christ Jesus resurrected, the Son of the living God, truly God truly Man, lived a life of poverty, preached the Gospel, gave us the ultimate sacrifice pouring out His very blood being flogged and beaten, crowned with thorns, spat upon, rejected, mocked, brutalized, and crucified. He rose from the dead triumphantly and has come to save our sins. You had this loving Saviour, the precious sacred heart, you had this in your life. A real, substantial, loving Saviour and the Church He established full of sacraments to save your soul and deliver you to unending life in Him. And you walked away from it completely to join pagans in, what we believe to be, folly, and a wasteful enterprise. Walking in the company of mythology and folklore, false gods, idols, instead of the fullness and deep love of Christ. You expect us to get it and, respectfully, we can’t and won’t. At least I can’t. And I don’t say this to insult. I say it out of love, speaking the truth with love. I can’t fathom why anyone would walk away from the Christ for Odin, Thor, Zeus, and a bunch of gods and goddesses that are the imagination of people living long without God in their lives projecting human frailties and pride into archetypes that are not real. “Gods” like Zeus who takes on the form of a snake or other animals and comes down to earth to sex up women and impregnate them. Paganism is crude and it often does indeed have a libertine, earthy, chaotic fill-in-the-blanks quality about it. It’s what you want it to be. Christ is not. His road is hard. I hope someday you’ll walk down it again. God bless you.

That’s one of the biggest misconceptions Christians and other have about us: the notion that our religions are simply justifications for libertine excess or a happy fantasy version of reality. I have found the opposite to be true. If I merely wanted to act out of self-serving nihlist reasons, I could do so very easily without all of the time and effort and heart I pour into my practice of Wicca.

In fact, it could be said I lived more along those lines in the years before I was Wiccan, when I was more or less just a resentful ex-Catholic turned agnostic/materialist. Cheap happiness, or perhaps blissful stupidity, was easy to pull off in those days. Wicca, on the other hand, calls us to live in full responsibility, full awareness and calls us to confront and improve every aspect of ourselves.

Some of the most painful, transformative and valuable lessons of my life have come to me on this path. Just about two years after I formally dedicated and began my study, life as I knew it came apart at the seams. I was betrayed by the leader of my coven and thrown out on a pretext of lies and manipulation. I lost the companionship of a woman I love beyond all measure. I ruptured a disc in my spine, a condition so painful I sometimes lost control of my breathing and vision, and went from a seemingly indestructible young guy to an invalid. As bad as all those things were, they led me to important realization and better places in my life. They were important initiatory experiences, and I don’t think I could be persuaded to go back in time and change them if I could.

Witchcraft did not CAUSE these things. What it did do was make it virtually impossible for me to live my life in an unbalanced way or ways that were not true to myself. Each one of those disasters I had been able to forsee. It was only when I ingnored the subtle and repeated signs that I suffered the consequences, and gained wisdom by a rockier road. On pagan forums, I frequently try to warn off young people who think my path is a good place to dress up and hide out from reality. Sometimes Goddess speaks to us through a mother’s soft whisper. Other times, the delivery of Her wisdom comes with all the subtlety of a skinhead’s steel toe Doc Martens across your head. No sir, paganism is not for those who are afraid to confront the truth.

 

[Belathene]

Ken you have to look at where we’re all coming from here being Catholic in a Catholic forum. We confess Christ Jesus resurrected, the Son of the living God, truly God truly Man, lived a life of poverty, preached the Gospel, gave us the ultimate sacrifice pouring out His very blood being flogged and beaten, crowned with thorns, spat upon, rejected, mocked, brutalized, and crucified. He rose from the dead triumphantly and has come to save our sins. You had this loving Saviour, the precious sacred heart, you had this in your life. A real, substantial, loving Saviour and the Church He established full of sacraments to save your soul and deliver you to unending life in Him. And you walked away from it completely to join pagans in, what we believe to be, folly, and a wasteful enterprise. Walking in the company of mythology and folklore, false gods, idols, instead of the fullness and deep love of Christ. You expect us to get it and, respectfully, we can’t and won’t. At least I can’t. And I don’t say this to insult. I say it out of love, speaking the truth with love. I can’t fathom why anyone would walk away from the Christ for Odin, Thor, Zeus, and a bunch of gods and goddesses that are the imagination of people living long without God in their lives projecting human frailties and pride into archetypes that are not real. “Gods” like Zeus who takes on the form of a snake or other animals and comes down to earth to sex up women and impregnate them. Paganism is crude and it often does indeed have a libertine, earthy, chaotic fill-in-the-blanks quality about it. It’s what you want it to be. Christ is not. His road is hard. I hope someday you’ll walk down it again. God bless you.

We don’t expect you to “get it” in that you agree that what we believe is truth. That would be incredibly ignorant on our part, and against what we stand for. What we want you to understand is that we really do believe these things- that these gods are real, and that Christ is no better than they. We don’t EVER take mythology literally; instead, we look at the stories and learn lessons from them. We see where the gods have been said to do things that bring harm to themselves or to others, things that cause war, things that breed hate, and we remember what those things bring, and we remember not to do it. Personally, I view the Bible as another set of myths, just like those of the Celts, or Norse, or Greeks. I don’t hold it infallible, but it does contain lessons we can learn about being generally good people, like all myths have. It’s true that there are pagans who use their paganism as an excuse to live materialistic, wild lives. That is not the case for myself, or, as far as I can tell (though I don’t speak for them) of the other pagan posters here.

What we want you to understand is that, to us, this is real. Just as real as Christ is to you. We don’t believe in the fall, so we don’t see the need for a savior of any kind. As was said before, darkness and light coexist, and there is a place for each in this world. We don’t expect you to accept this. That would be against what YOUR faith stands for. I just want you to understand that no amount of “what you believe is false” will ever change our minds. To us, this is real, this is truth, and this is good.

What this thread started as was a thread to ask the pagans questions about what they believe, and why. It is not, and never will be, a place where we try and change your mind about the nature of truth. It is a pointless endeavor, from my point of view. And that’s fine. Your style of worship is just as valid as mine, no more so, and you happen to worship a different god. That’s fine. We’re not looking for converts.

Whether or not Jesus existed and performed any or all of the miracles attributed to him in the Bible is up to the individual pagan. Personally, I think there’s enough evidence that there did exist a man named Jesus, from Nazareth, who was the son of Joseph and Mary. Beyond that, you delve into my personal beliefs, and if you can wrap your mind around it, my personal relationship with him. I carry my rosary with me at all times; it is a symbol of comfort and hope to me. But I do not accept the Church’s claims concerning theology, and I never will. This is the only thing I want you to understand. In my mind, I am correct. In my mind, I’m not lead astray. In my mind, I’m not making this up–and to tell me so is a grave insult. It implies that I know truth and choose to reject it, but in reality, I’m practicing what I believe to be truth. I don’t expect you to accept that I’m correct in this thinking, only to accept that I do, in fact, think this way.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

We don’t expect you to “get it” in that you agree that what we believe is truth. That would be incredibly ignorant on our part, and against what we stand for. What we want you to understand is that we really do believe these things- that these gods are real, and that Christ is no better than they. We don’t EVER take mythology literally; instead, we look at the stories and learn lessons from them. We see where the gods have been said to do things that bring harm to themselves or to others, things that cause war, things that breed hate, and we remember what those things bring, and we remember not to do it. Personally, I view the Bible as another set of myths, just like those of the Celts, or Norse, or Greeks. I don’t hold it infallible, but it does contain lessons we can learn about being generally good people, like all myths have. It’s true that there are pagans who use their paganism as an excuse to live materialistic, wild lives. That is not the case for myself, or, as far as I can tell (though I don’t speak for them) of the other pagan posters here.

What we want you to understand is that, to us, this is real. Just as real as Christ is to you. We don’t believe in the fall, so we don’t see the need for a savior of any kind. As was said before, darkness and light coexist, and there is a place for each in this world. We don’t expect you to accept this. That would be against what YOUR faith stands for. I just want you to understand that no amount of “what you believe is false” will ever change our minds. To us, this is real, this is truth, and this is good.

What this thread started as was a thread to ask the pagans questions about what they believe, and why. It is not, and never will be, a place where we try and change your mind about the nature of truth. It is a pointless endeavor, from my point of view. And that’s fine. Your style of worship is just as valid as mine, no more so, and you happen to worship a different god. That’s fine. We’re not looking for converts.

Whether or not Jesus existed and performed any or all of the miracles attributed to him in the Bible is up to the individual pagan. Personally, I think there’s enough evidence that there did exist a man named Jesus, from Nazareth, who was the son of Joseph and Mary. Beyond that, you delve into my personal beliefs, and if you can wrap your mind around it, my personal relationship with him. I carry my rosary with me at all times; it is a symbol of comfort and hope to me. But I do not accept the Church’s claims concerning theology, and I never will. This is the only thing I want you to understand. In my mind, I am correct. In my mind, I’m not lead astray. In my mind, I’m not making this up–and to tell me so is a grave insult. It implies that I know truth and choose to reject it, but in reality, I’m practicing what I believe to be truth. I don’t expect you to accept that I’m correct in this thinking, only to accept that I do, in fact, think this way.

:clapping: You eloquently put what I feel. Although Gurney is a cool guy, and I can understand where he’s coming from as well. But yeah, this is how I feel. Thanks for explaining it better.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I’m pretty sure I remember both cyberwolf and I stating rather clearly that we are both polytheistic…

I’m sorry. I haven’t been paying much attention to this thread, I admit. And when I jump in, I’m sure I sound completely ridiculous! :doh2:

We believe in multiple gods, all of which are “higher” than humans. There would be no reason to practice this particular religion without the belief in a higher power or powers to back it up- I’d hazard a guess that most current practicing pagans are converts from other religions. I’d also hazard a guess that most did not convert because they thought it would be “cool” or “easier,” but because they believed in the truth of it.

Hm, I see. Would you say there is one god that is higher than all the other gods…say, a zeus figure?

God Bless

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Cyberwolf said in a previous post, “what more must we do?” regarding recognition and understanding and respect for paganism. I’m glad you don’t expect me to “get it.” I don’t know if you believe these things or not? Not my problem. If you want to read mythology and not believe it and yet believe in the gods that were in those stories and yet not believe in them or turn them into archetypes for something you do believe in, it’s a free country, you have every right. I’ve never said otherwise. But I do find it strange how you can arrive at any objective truth about good, evil, morality, or truth when you all read myths and unpack them the way you want, take some and leave the rest like a salad bar? You enter moral relativity which I can see you embrace. That’s fine, I just don’t agree.

How do you ascertain what is good, evil, etc.? You mention how people are “generally good” and you say materialism is a bad thing. How have you arrived at that conclusion through mythology alone? You say “this is truth” (to me) and “this is good” (to me). How do you know it’s the truth? And the gods and pantheon of deities in different regions held different “values” so how do you piece it together? Obviously you’re taking values you already held pre-pagan and applying them to what you want from different stories, right? Could it just be that some of your morality is Judeo-Christian and you’re looking to find it elsewhere? Hard to say. Like I said, free country. I am indeed sorry to hear that you believe Holy Scripture to be mythology and made-up like the other stuff you read. That’s unfortunate and I do believe you are putting your salvation in serious jeopardy. I hope God will continue to send you the Holy Spirit and inspire, intervene, and move you. Never say never. May God bless.

We don’t expect you to “get it” in that you agree that what we believe is truth. That would be incredibly ignorant on our part, and against what we stand for. What we want you to understand is that we really do believe these things- that these gods are real, and that Christ is no better than they. We don’t EVER take mythology literally; instead, we look at the stories and learn lessons from them. We see where the gods have been said to do things that bring harm to themselves or to others, things that cause war, things that breed hate, and we remember what those things bring, and we remember not to do it. Personally, I view the Bible as another set of myths, just like those of the Celts, or Norse, or Greeks. I don’t hold it infallible, but it does contain lessons we can learn about being generally good people, like all myths have. It’s true that there are pagans who use their paganism as an excuse to live materialistic, wild lives. That is not the case for myself, or, as far as I can tell (though I don’t speak for them) of the other pagan posters here.

What we want you to understand is that, to us, this is real. Just as real as Christ is to you. We don’t believe in the fall, so we don’t see the need for a savior of any kind. As was said before, darkness and light coexist, and there is a place for each in this world. We don’t expect you to accept this. That would be against what YOUR faith stands for. I just want you to understand that no amount of “what you believe is false” will ever change our minds. To us, this is real, this is truth, and this is good.

What this thread started as was a thread to ask the pagans questions about what they believe, and why. It is not, and never will be, a place where we try and change your mind about the nature of truth. It is a pointless endeavor, from my point of view. And that’s fine. Your style of worship is just as valid as mine, no more so, and you happen to worship a different god. That’s fine. We’re not looking for converts.

Whether or not Jesus existed and performed any or all of the miracles attributed to him in the Bible is up to the individual pagan. Personally, I think there’s enough evidence that there did exist a man named Jesus, from Nazareth, who was the son of Joseph and Mary. Beyond that, you delve into my personal beliefs, and if you can wrap your mind around it, my personal relationship with him. I carry my rosary with me at all times; it is a symbol of comfort and hope to me. But I do not accept the Church’s claims concerning theology, and I never will. This is the only thing I want you to understand. In my mind, I am correct. In my mind, I’m not lead astray. In my mind, I’m not making this up–and to tell me so is a grave insult. It implies that I know truth and choose to reject it, but in reality, I’m practicing what I believe to be truth. I don’t expect you to accept that I’m correct in this thinking, only to accept that I do, in fact, think this way.

 

[kenofken]

I don’t expect anyone to “get” paganism or make any admission that it is as valid as their own path, and I would expect that any Catholic with even a half measure of faith would not be converted by my ramblings, and I have no interest in seeking converts in any case. What I do hope is that you would consider the possibility that our paths have considerable depth and meaning to US. More than what you infer from pop culture representations of us and more than your preconceptions of us. If you’re determined to believe that we’re completely full of manure and/or ill will, what’s the point of entering into a conversation with folks on a pagan thread? For a guy who seems to believe that our faith is nothing more than Ren Faire fantasy, you spend a lot of time engaging us. There’s enough substance in what we do that you’re either concerned, galled or facinated on some level.

Arguing whose faith is the ultimate truth to each other is rather pointless. Maybe yours is, maybe mine is. Quite probably neither is. What I can say is that my practice and beliefs at this time lead me to be the best person I know how to be better than any other paths I know of. I presume the same can be said for you. There are, I suspect, things we can talk about productively, and must, if we are to keep this country from going down the sewer in the next few years. At the very least we might find ourselves united in common hatred. During the Middle Ages, Jews and Muslims kept European Christianity tied together more than culture or roads ever could. Maybe our shared straw man will be terrorists, or strident atheists, or people who are openly and notoriously Canadian, or exceptionally ugly reality TV contestants or the lowlifes who make commercials 140 decibles at night.

 

[cyberwolf001]

We don’t expect you to “get it” in that you agree that what we believe is truth. That would be incredibly ignorant on our part, and against what we stand for. What we want you to understand is that we really do believe these things- that these gods are real, and that Christ is no better than they.

Or at least that we don’t believe this to be some sort of 24/7 LARP… However honesty demands I admit some do treat it this way. Same as some treat Catholicism as a club for college educated Christians. (Yes I was told without a degree I had no business in the RCC)

We don’t EVER take mythology literally; instead, we look at the stories and learn lessons from them. We see where the gods have been said to do things that bring harm to themselves or to others, things that cause war, things that breed hate, and we remember what those things bring, and we remember not to do it.

Speak for yourself. Many Pagans actually DO take certain myths as literal if fallible accounts. Odin’s sacrifice for the Runes for example. It’s like how some Catholics see the Bible.

It’s true that there are pagans who use their paganism as an excuse to live materialistic, wild lives. That is not the case for myself, or, as far as I can tell (though I don’t speak for them) of the other pagan posters here.

Honestly I do not see a problem with living such a life within moderation. Of course ‘wild lives’ depending on how define such can be bad for your health and this past decade has shown what being overly focused on wealth and things can lead too.

What we want you to understand is that, to us, this is real. Just as real as Christ is to you. We don’t believe in the fall, so we don’t see the need for a savior of any kind. As was said before, darkness and light coexist, and there is a place for each in this world. We don’t expect you to accept this.

At the least I wish people would acknowledge there is something real here. It may, from a Christian view point be demonic, but it is real none the less.

What this thread started as was a thread to ask the pagans questions about what they believe, and why. It is not, and never will be, a place where we try and change your mind about the nature of truth. It is a pointless endeavor, from my point of view. And that’s fine. Your style of worship is just as valid as mine, no more so, and you happen to worship a different god. That’s fine. We’re not looking for converts.

An we’d all be banned if we where. An still might be if we end up gaining a few…

 

[cyberwolf001]

Cyberwolf said in a previous post, “what more must we do?” regarding recognition and understanding and respect for paganism. I’m glad you don’t expect me to “get it.” I don’t know if you believe these things or not?

Well we all know what will happen to us if it turns out you guys are right… Need I say more we are wagering our eternal souls on this being right.

Not my problem. If you want to read mythology and not believe it and yet believe in the gods that were in those stories and yet not believe in them or turn them into archetypes for something you do believe in, it’s a free country, you have every right.

This school of thought in Paganism always struck me as odd too.

How do you ascertain what is good, evil, etc.?

Believe it or not we can do it without someone else telling us. Good: That which is beneficial to society. Bad: That which is detrimental to society.

You mention how people are “generally good” and you say materialism is a bad thing. How have you arrived at that conclusion through mythology alone?

Catholics don’t do Bible alone and we Pagans do not do Legends alone.

You say “this is truth” (to me) and “this is good” (to me). How do you know it’s the truth? And the gods and pantheon of deities in different regions held different “values” so how do you piece it together?

An different Catholics around the world hold different values, yet share alot of the same core view points. The same with the Pantheons.

Obviously you’re taking values you already held pre-pagan and applying them to what you want from different stories, right?

Obviously who can exist in a vacuum? Believe it or not most Pagans don’t lose alot of sleep over the idea of there thought patterns being influenced by Secular
Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought. Infact we are probably being influenced more by
Post-Christian American Secularism (in the US) than by monotheism at this point.

Could it just be that some of your morality is Judeo-Christian and you’re looking to find it elsewhere? Hard to say.

Most Christians would love to think we are in denial or if they can find that ONE sin keeping us away we can be fixed and brought back. It would certainly be an easier way to re-evangelize us and eventually evangelize our children.

I hope God will continue to send you the Holy Spirit and inspire, intervene, and move you. Never say never. May God bless.

I hope not. I’ve seen your Gods way of intervening. It always leaves the victim a broken man.

 

[Belathene]

Or at least that we don’t believe this to be some sort of 24/7 LARP… However honesty demands I admit some do treat it this way. Same as some treat Catholicism as a club for college educated Christians. (Yes I was told without a degree I had no business in the RCC)

Speak for yourself. Many Pagans actually DO take certain myths as literal if fallible accounts. Odin’s sacrifice for the Runes for example. It’s like how some Catholics see the Bible.

Honestly I do not see a problem with living such a life within moderation. Of course ‘wild lives’ depending on how define such can be bad for your health and this past decade has shown what being overly focused on wealth and things can lead too.

At the least I wish people would acknowledge there is something real here. It may, from a Christian view point be demonic, but it is real none the less.

An we’d all be banned if we where. An still might be if we end up gaining a few…

I apologize, cyberwolf. I’d forgotten about the rune sacrifice, although that particular story is an interesting (and somewhat unique) one, being told from Odin’s point of view; I don’t personally remember any other myths that were told this way, but I’m sadly lacking in my Norse and Celtic myth knowledge. I don’t see it as literal in the sense that Odin, in a physical body on the earth, went to the physical world tree on the earth, etc.

Yes, that’s what I implied by wild life: that which has no consideration for the well-being of self or others. And when I said “materialistic,” I was mostly referring to those who care about wealth above all else, sacrificing love and family to get more “stuff.”

 

[StillWondering]

I’m pretty sure I remember both cyberwolf and I stating rather clearly that we are both polytheistic. We believe in multiple gods, all of which are “higher” than humans. There would be no reason to practice this particular religion without the belief in a higher power or powers to back it up- I’d hazard a guess that most current practicing pagans are converts from other religions. I’d also hazard a guess that most did not convert because they thought it would be “cool” or “easier,” but because they believed in the truth of it.

I’m just wondering, how do you and cyberwolf feel about about atheists in general? And what about the atheists that are politically active in trying to limit or confine religion or those of religion?

 

[Belathene]

Well we all know what will happen to us if it turns out you guys are right… Need I say more we are wagering our eternal souls on this being right.

This school of thought in Paganism always struck me as odd too.

Believe it or not we can do it without someone else telling us. Good: That which is beneficial to society. Bad: That which is detrimental to society.

Catholics don’t do Bible alone and we Pagans do not do Legends alone.

An different Catholics around the world hold different values, yet share alot of the same core view points. The same with the Pantheons.

Obviously who can exist in a vacuum? Believe it or not most Pagans don’t lose alot of sleep over the idea of there thought patterns being influenced by Secular
Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought. Infact we are probably being influenced more by
Post-Christian American Secularism (in the US) than by monotheism at this point.

Most Christians would love to think we are in denial or if they can find that ONE sin keeping us away we can be fixed and brought back. It would certainly be an easier way to re-evangelize us and eventually evangelize our children.

I hope not. I’ve seen your Gods way of intervening. It always leaves the victim a broken man.

Let me see if I can explain my understanding of “good” and “bad.” I have to start off by restating that I don’t see any problems with our natural state- there was no fall. It is the nature of living things, even plants, to seek pleasure and avoid pain, no? So something that is “good” is that which maximizes pleasure and minimizes pain, for as many people as are affected by the action. “Bad” would be the opposite of this.

I made a point in another thread (that’s no longer here) of explaining that I am not, in fact, a moral relativist. Sine I have no way of knowing if you saw that explanation, however, I’ll give the short version here. I do believe, that in every single choice, there is that which is the most good- that which brings the most pleasure to the most people while minimizing pain to the most people. However, there are so many billions of variables that go into the simplest of choices that it is impossible–really, truly impossible–for the human mind to know which is the right choice in every situation. Confronted with an apple on my kitchen table in the morning, I am faced with a plethora of choices. I could ignore it, I could eat it, I could pack it in my lunch to eat later, or I could take it outside and throw it through the neighbor’s window, as some examples. Ignoring it would be wasteful–leave it to rot, and it helps no one. Throwing it through the neighbor’s window causes much pain to the neighbor (and probably financial pain to me, having to replace the window), and very little pleasure (except the minor satisfaction of knowing that I do, in fact, have some measure of upper body strength). However, between eating it now and saving it for lunch, how do I know which is best? How do I know which will bring the most pleasure, and avoid the most pain? It could be the case that should I try and save it for lunch, it will roll out of my backpack and be lost–unfortunate, as I quite enjoy apples–so eating it right away would seem the best choice, where I can get nutrition and energy from it. However, it could also be the case that if I choose to save it for lunch, before lunchtime I come across a homeless woman with a starving child. In that case, it would certainly be better for me to give HER the apple than to keep it for myself, as much as I may derive benefit from it, because it would give her (and her child) the physical pleasure of continued life and increased health, the emotional pleasure of knowing someone cares, and it would give me the emotional satisfaction of knowing I brought joy into someone’s life. And that’s just look at four of the many, many choices that I would be confronted with by that simple interaction.

As far as mythology, I see myth as similar to Aesop’s fables. I would not look at the Tortoise and the Hare, figure out that it couldn’t literally happen, and come to the conclusion that tortoises and hares must not exist. The gods were being worshiped before the myths were written, and there’s evidence other than mythology of that. I’ve had personal experiences interacting with these gods. Others around me have reported personal experiences with these gods. Writing a story using a familiar character does not mean the familiar character does not exist–they may not have done exactly what was in the story, but their core identity is still the same, or we wouldn’t recognize them as a familiar character.

If my morals have some views in common with Judeo-Christian thought… okay. That’s fine. If they have some in common with Buddhist thought… okay. That’s fine. I’m not trying to force my previous morals into a different religion so I can feel “less guilty” about it. I have reasons for why I do what I do. There are actually a number of values that I did NOT hold “pre-pagan” that I arrived at by thought and prayer–the value of sex, as one example. I’m not “obviously” doing anything that you can tell without scrutinizing my every action and thought.

I’ll say this much: I hope you pray for me. I really do. It shows your own commitment to your faith, and will probably foster a stronger relationship between you and your god.

Unfortunately, starting Friday, I’ll be unable (okay, unwilling) to access these forums- exams are approaching, and I have a number of papers to write and a lot of reading to do. I’m cutting myself off from the internet so I don’t get so distracted by it. I probably won’t be able to respond to anything before late March/early April. I would suggest, if you have anything to say to me or any last minute burning questions, you do so tonight or tomorrow.