Neocon

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a pilgrim:
Mr. Wright,

Given your concern regarding terminology that could carry pejorative implications, might I suggest that we employ the same philosophy and sanctions with regard to the use of the term uniate when referencing members of the Eastern Catholic Churches. In support of your request for a clear-cut definition, I offer the following from Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniate

…scroll down to "The term Uniat[e]"

Thank you for your consideration.
I wasn’t aware that there was a growing problem with the perjorative use of the term uniate. Could you show me some examples? Additionally, I don’t want people getting carried away here and start piling this thread with lists of words they don’t like.
 
Peter Wright said:
I wasn’t aware that there was a growing problem with the perjorative use of the term uniate. Could you show me some examples? Additionally, I don’t want people getting carried away here and start piling this thread with lists of words they don’t like.

There isn’t.
 
How about banning the word “Liberal” or, less commonly, “Lib”? Those terms get thrown around a lot here, often aimed at those who are most definitely not liberals in the commonly understood sense of the word.
 
Peter Wright:
I wasn’t aware that there was a growing problem with the perjorative use of the term uniate. Could you show me some examples? Additionally, I don’t want people getting carried away here and start piling this thread with lists of words they don’t like.
Mr. Wright,

Thank you for your reply.

The examples you request are numerous. By employing the Forum’s “search” function, you’ll find 82 threads, excluding this one, wherein the term “uniate” was used in reference to members of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Many of these threads include dialogue specific to the appropriateness, or lack thereof, of the use of the term. I’ll not waste bandwidth here by quoting specific threads and/or dialogues - they’re all there for you to review.

By contrast, the same “search” function turns up 69 threads (again, excluding this one) employing the use of the term “neocon.” Both terms have been used on this Board over roughly the same time frame, with the first appearance of “uniate” in a thread predating “neocon” by roughly one month.

I’m sorry if you feel I’m getting carried away. I applaud your efforts to step in and curtail the use of potentially pejorative terms on this Board, and saw this as an opportunity to point out yet another term we’ve accepted and lived with for every bit as long as we’ve accepted the term that forms the basis of your original concern.

In light of your response, I’ll not pursue my request further.

Respectfully,
 
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Benedictus:
How about banning the word “Liberal” or, less commonly, “Lib”? Those terms get thrown around a lot here, often aimed at those who are most definitely not liberals in the commonly understood sense of the word.
Not necessary. As a liberal, I get a bit annoyed that too many posters consider the word a synonym for Marxist or Trotskyite, but that’s their problem, not mine.
 
Some of you all need to back off the coffee and fish oil and go for a jog or something.
 
Arba Sicula:
Not necessary. As a liberal, I get a bit annoyed that too many posters consider the word a synonym for Marxist or Trotskyite, but that’s their problem, not mine.
Yes, it would be nice if people knew the differences between liberal, socialist, communist, Marxist, Trotskyite, and the Democratic party, but I’m not holding my breath…

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
Yes, it would be nice if people knew the differences between liberal, socialist, communist, Marxist, Trotskyite, and the Democratic party, but I’m not holding my breath…

Mike
You forgot a few. Progressive, Lennonist, Utopian, Conservative, Isolationist, Constructionist, Originalist, Mercantilist, Moderate, Reactionary, Radical, Fascist, Bolshevist, Nationalist, Anarcho-syndicalist, Neomarxist, Libertarian, Utilitarianist, Zionist, Pragmatist, and Majoritarianist, just to name a few. Like I said, this conversation is about the approriate use of Neocon, not to compile a grocery list of terms that we do or don’t like.

This is actually an opportunity for you, the forum members to have (name removed by moderator)ut into the shaping of how this place works. If you carry on ad nauseam about things not related to the use of the word neocon, we will just make a universal decision to disallow the use of the word. Please try to keep the conversation polite, articulate, and on point. Thank you.
 
Peter Wright:
This is actually an opportunity for you, the forum members to have (name removed by moderator)ut into the shaping of how this place works. If you carry on ad nauseam about things not related to the use of the word neocon, we will just make a universal decision to disallow the use of the word. Please try to keep the conversation polite, articulate, and on point. Thank you.
My apologies, I thought your post #25 was a decision (that we use the full word not the abbreviation) and the conversation had now widened somewhat. I missed your post #41. Sorry.

Mike
 
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Benedictus:
How about banning the word “Liberal” or, less commonly, “Lib”? Those terms get thrown around a lot here, often aimed at those who are most definitely not liberals in the commonly understood sense of the word.
I’m getting really anxious about the possibilities of making counterproductive incursions into the English language.

‘Liberal’ is a legitimate term. Yes, sometimes people misapply it. But that misapplication can be addressed in the discussion. Achieving common language and meaning is one of the ends of discussion. Clarifying terminology, meaning, usage is one of the ends of discussion.

A word is never just one thing. It is a range of things. English is a contextual language. Banning terminology does not fix anything. People bent on putdowns, slurs, euphemisms, and so on will find some other word to replace the banned word with some other word which, in the context, conveys the same sense of putdown, slur, euphemism, and so on. The problem is not the word. It is the putdowns, slurs, euphemisms, and so on.
 
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MikeWM:
Yes, it would be nice if people knew the differences between liberal, socialist, communist, Marxist, Trotskyite, and the Democratic party, but I’m not holding my breath…

Mike
Exactly. That’s why I agree with the earlier poster that we should stick to “liberal”, “conservative” or “moderate” in our terms. They are more general and less likely to defend. If the term “neo-con” were used to describe only “neo-cons”, I would be okay with it, but it’s not.

I’ve noticed “neo-con” is most often used in a snide fashion to describe any conservative, but then I torture myself by listening to Air America on my drive home every night. It is the equivalent to a conservative who refers to all liberals as “communists” or “socialists”.

Robert
 
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rlg94086:
Exactly. That’s why I agree with the earlier poster that we should stick to “liberal”, “conservative” or “moderate” in our terms. They are more general and less likely to defend. If the term “neo-con” were used to describe only “neo-cons”, I would be okay with it, but it’s not.
I think this is a dumbing down of the English language.

To what end? To avoid the possible misunderstanding or injury which occurs as a result of someone misapplying or misinterpreting terminology? It appears so.

It is the misunderstanding or injury which must be addressed, not the word itself.
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rlg94086:
I’ve noticed “neo-con” is most often used in a snide fashion to describe any conservative
Snideness is easily assessed. Snideness is not necessarily intrinsic to certain words. It disturbs me to think that no distinction is being made between a word’s denotative meaning and a word’s connotative meaning and a word’s contextual meaning.
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rlg94086:
It is the equivalent to a conservative who refers to all liberals as “communists” or “socialists”.Robert
I have not encountered that on this board yet. I have encountered people assessing certain philosophies or worldviews as communist or socialist. Whether or not the promoters of those philosophies or worldviews self-identify as communists or socialists is a whole other thing and an irrelevant thing. It is not about the person. It is about what the person says.

If a person promotes ideas which jibe with communist or socialist writing, then that person’s ideas can legitimately be called communist or socialist. The person herself can self-identify as a liberal til the cows come home – but her ideas may not in themselves be liberal.

Language is power. To dumb down what someone is trying to contribute to a discussion is to diminish that person’s participation. If a person is using language to harm another person, then it is legitimate for a mod to diminish that person’s participation. But if a person is merely disagreeing with another person, then let’s leave well enough alone.
 
Okay. First, calm down…have a soothing cup of tea :coffee:
Ani Ibi:
I think this is a dumbing down of the English language.

I don’t think using “liberal” and “conservative” is dumbing down the language any more than using “neo-con”. The term “neo-con” is a very vague description as well, and in practice it is being applied to all conservatives. So, what’s the difference?

To what end? To avoid the possible misunderstanding or injury which occurs as a result of someone misapplying or misinterpreting terminology? It appears so.

It is the misunderstanding or injury which must be addressed, not the word itself.

The posts which have to be made to clarify or address assumed or real injurious remarks waste time and add to the contentiousness of some of the threads. If a term is generally taken as offensive, it’s better not to use it. IMHO

Snideness is easily assessed. Snideness is not necessarily intrinsic to certain words. It disturbs me to think that no distinction is being made between a word’s denotative meaning and a word’s connotative meaning and a word’s contextual meaning.

No argument here…not sure why you are disburbed by my opinion. Our culture is constantly changing descriptive terms…consider “homeless” versus “vagabond” or “bum”; “Black” or “African American” versus “Negro”; or the latest, “undocumented worker” versus “illegal alien”. This is nothing new. The primary reason for these changes is not the meaning of the words.

I have not encountered that on this board yet. I have encountered people assessing certain philosophies or worldviews as communist or socialist. Whether or not the promoters of those philosophies or worldviews self-identify as communists or socialists is a whole other thing and an irrelevant thing. It is not about the person. It is about what the person says.

My comments were to be applied to the general populace not specific to this board.

If a person promotes ideas which jibe with communist or socialist writing, then that person’s ideas can legitimately be called communist or socialist. The person herself can self-identify as a liberal til the cows come home – but her ideas may not in themselves be liberal.

Be as specific as you want. I’m talking about normal usage. Generally, the public refers to “the left” or “liberals” and “the right” or “conservatives”. If people want to qualify those labels with something which clarifies, that’s fine by me. It’s just that most of the “clarifications” I encounter come from the opposing viewpoint and are presented in a manner meant to marginalize.

Language is power. To dumb down what someone is trying to contribute to a discussion is to diminish that person’s participation. If a person is using language to harm another person, then it is legitimate for a mod to diminish that person’s participation. But if a person is merely disagreeing with another person, then let’s leave well enough alone.

IMHO…use whatever words you want. I’m not as easily offended as some. If I’m called a neo-con by mistake, I right it off to their ignorance of the real meaning of the term. I was responding to the OP’s request on opinions about the word “neo-con”, so I gave it. I will continue to use “liberal” and “conservative”. I hope that doesn’t offend you linguistic sensibilities.
 
Adding the following to the guidelines and closing the thread. Thank you everyone for participating!
Avoid categorizing people by a term which could be considered derogatory (e.g., Nazi or neocon) unless they have embraced that title. In which case, you may qualify them with the term as long as you preface it with the word “avowed.” Posters are asked to use their best judgement when posting articles using such terms. Do not abbreviate terms.
 
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