Nephew and road trip gone bad

[holyrood]

Well, well. I had just posted about trouble among devout family members.

Here’s more. My young adult nephew asked to be taken on a road trip. I ended up leaving one of my own kids home to accommodate. He knew up front that it would be a rather costly trip and that he would be expected to pitch in with expenses. Throughout the trip, he made no effort to contribute for gas, hotels, groceries…nothing. He fed himself on occasion when he didn’t like what I had in the cooler.

He was also pretty rude to me on this trip a couple of times–once demanding to be allowed to sleep in a bed with the two young women traveling with us and implying that he’s gay and I was some kind of fool for allowing him to sleep in a room with my sons but not with the girls; and once, informing me that, no, he would continue to sit in the passenger seat of my car because that’s what he and my daughter had decided (it was a rest stop, I’d been in the back seat and said it was time to change.)

He has now asked for a detailed list, to the penny of every expense on the trip. I provided amounts for gas, tolls, and hotels. I didn’t keep exact track of all the groceries. He then said he’ll need receipts before he pays me. I have most of the receipts, but not all.

I’m disgusted. Judging by his recent behavior, I’m guessing he’s going to inform me he will only be paying for what’s on the receipts–which makes me wonder if I’m just playing his game by producing all of them. I’m also guessing, judging by my family’s past attitudes, that they’ll back him up on this every step of the way.

Please toss any ideas my way about handling this with grace and dignity.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Perhaps you should not accept any money (if you can afford to do that) but make a point to tell him that this is the last time he got an opportunity to behave in a rude and selfish way. And stick to that. It sounds like the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree in this case as well.

Boundaries. Boundaries. Boundaries.

 

[holyrood]

Perhaps you should not accept any money (if you can afford to do that) but make a point to tell him that this is the last time he got an opportunity to behave in a rude and selfish way. And stick to that. It sounds like the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree in this case as well.

Boundaries. Boundaries. Boundaries.

This is one of the things I’m considering doing. Yes, I can afford to do that if necessary, and it may make the biggest impact on him, while he’s quibbling about pennies. So sorry to see it come to this. But I do believe he’s learned this attitude from his mother and grandparents.

 

[Lasting_faith]

Cut him off until he knows what gratitude is. (And don’t forget to send him a hefty bill.)

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Even if you send him a bill there’s no guarantee that he’ll pay since he chose not to contribute on the trip. You may be best writing it off but then tell him not to expect any future favors.

We took a trip with my MIL a few years ago and she assured us we’d split costs evenly but refused to discuss what that meant beforehand. What it ended up meaning was that we paid for virtually everything. We took another trip with her the following year. This time I told her we wouldn’t consider the trip unless she agreed to discuss expenses beforehand. We finally came up with an arrangement we all agreed to, only to have her renege on virtually everything once we were on the road. She wanted us to take a trip with her again this year. I told her that was fine as long as she put up her portion of the money in advance. She decided to take the trip without us.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Even if you send him a bill there’s no guarantee that he’ll pay since he chose not to contribute on the trip. You may be best writing it off but then tell him not to expect any future favors.

We took a trip with my MIL a few years ago and she assured us we’d split costs evenly but refused to discuss what that meant beforehand. What it ended up meaning was that we paid for virtually everything. We took another trip with her the following year. This time I told her we wouldn’t consider the trip unless she agreed to discuss expenses beforehand. We finally came up with an arrangement we all agreed to, only to have her renege on virtually everything once we were on the road. She wanted us to take a trip with her again this year. I told her that was fine as long as she put up her portion of the money in advance. She decided to take the trip without us.

Good for you!! Standing up to freeloaders isn’t always easy. I remember one Aunt and her family who, when I was a kid, would show up at our house around dinner time on occasion. My dad would tell my mom to put everything away and warned me and my brother to say nothing. I guess what he and my mom could have done was say, “Oh, Hi. Come to take us out to dinner? Give us a few minutes to get ready.”

 

[Xantippe]

“He has now asked for a detailed list, to the penny of every expense on the trip. I provided amounts for gas, tolls, and hotels. I didn’t keep exact track of all the groceries. He then said he’ll need receipts before he pays me. I have most of the receipts, but not all.”

Does nephew have any redeeming qualities? Aside from the money, he sounds like kind of a pain. I don’t think you should feel bad about not taking him on any further joint trips, barring a major unexpected family occasion (a funeral, for instance).

Can you explain to nephew that doing the receipt thing is usual for employees getting reimbursements or for dealing with the IRS, but that it isn’t an acceptable way to deal with expenses on a road trip with relatives where he was present for all of these transactions? Come up with a rough figure (prorated to reflect the percentage that makes sense as his share) and present it to him. If he pays, great, if he doesn’t pay, adjust your relational thermostat accordingly (but without making a scene). I think you should shelve the idea of further planned travel with him, but you could be doing him a service by making an effort (in a mild-mannered, neutral manner) of teaching him some basic social skills about how to get on in the world without annoying his fellow man. (Imagine him dating! The girls must just LOVE him.)

This is possibly 50% immaturity, 50% lousy personality. The immaturity is the part you can actually work on. From what you’ve said about your family, it sounds like you have a lot of prickly, difficult relatives. That’s partly your cross to bear, and partly their cross. That’s what God has given them to work with. Where culpability comes in is what they do with it.

 

[Xantippe]

“I’m also guessing, judging by my family’s past attitudes, that they’ll back him up on this every step of the way.”

If he’s over 21, don’t bring the rest of the family into it, if you can help it.

In future, divvy up expenses before leaving the driveway when doing this kind of trip with somebody else. “You can come on the trip if you pay for all tolls and gas. Does that work for you?”

 

[1ke]

i am not clear on why you brought him wth you in the first place.

 

[agnes_therese]

i am not clear on why you brought him wth you in the first place.

Especially when it meant leaving one of your own children at home. How did he/she feel about being displaced by this freeloader?

As someone else said – boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. I wouldn’t take this kid out to McDonald’s after that, much less on an expensive trip.

How to handle with grace and dignity? Just turn down any further requests from him. If he asks why, tell him honestly that’s it’s due to his behavior on the trip. Refuse to discuss with any family members; he’s an adult and should be able to answer and fend for himself.

 

[EasterJoy]

This sounds like it is going to turn out to be an expensive lesson, whatever is learned. I predict that you’ll be lucky to recover a fraction of what he owes you. Oh, well, you know who not to travel with.

Personally, you’ve erred too far in the direction of grace and dignity already. There is a place for righteous anger, too, and you’ve recounted quite a few. You wouldn’t have been short on either grace or dignity to have put him on a bus and given his parents a call concerning when he’d need a ride from the bus station. You certainly had room to put your foot down and tell him bluntly (even if gently and calmly) that his behavior was totally unacceptable.

I’d mention to his parents that their son was not a pleasant travel companion, that he had lobbied you for a chance to sleep in the same room with the young women you had along, had not paid you a dime for anything and was actually demanding receipts, and that you’d advise them to do his next host a favor and warn them off before accepting him as a passenger. You can leave it unspoken that you have no intention of ever going on a vacation with him again, let alone hosting him. What they do with that information, I would leave up to them, but he deserves to have them “share” the praise he is due for such a disgusting performance. If they say that they aren’t surprised, then you might say, “Well, I’d appreciate a warning next time. I did have a member of my own family that I could have had along instead of him, so I would have appreciated either more gratitude on his part or else a warning from you that a pleasant trip was too much to expect.”

Now, it may be that they’re cheaper than a paper plate themselves, but that does not mean they’ll approve of him being so obviously cheap, particularly with the bait-and-switch with regards to paying his way. If my relatives told me that they wouldn’t reimburse me without receipts, either, I wouldn’t have any trouble saying, “Well, I guess we shouldn’t be taking any vacations together, either, because life’s too short for another vacation like that one. If you don’t trust me to ask for the correct reimbursement, you shouldn’t trust me to take you on vacation at all.”

 

[rebeccanew]

Maybe he is telling you that because you are Catholic you are politically incorrect, hence the rudeness towards you and the inconvenience with costs. I get this all the time- even with small town business dealings. This is just the beginning, too! Have you seen the movie A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS. Just thank God we live on the USA in modern times, or it would be a lot worse.

 

[holyrood]

Yep, expensive lesson.

I took him because it was important to my daughter to have him at her graduation. It didn’t seem quite as important to my younger son to be there.

I took him because I have lived for years with my family condemning every move I make and telling me I’m wrong if others don’t get what they want. I’ve been working on that for the past 7, 8 years. Now they’re mad at me because I don’t give in every time, yet the impulse to always see someone else’s part is strong.

I left a detailed penny by penny list on the table, taken from receipts, records on the trip, and credit card statements online, detailing what each was for, and went to Mass. When I got home, he informed me that he needed receipts, that he would not pay a penny without receipts. I told him (thanks to the poster above) that receipts are for IRS, employees reimbursing, and not for family vacations where he watched me spend every penny. He insisted he’s *entitled *to receipts, and told me I hadn’t treated him like an adult this entire trip.

He wanted to push and push. I finally said, “You can either contribute to the trip or I can take you to your grandparents.” He said he’d love to contribute…but refused to actually do it without receipts, and he doesn’t need the ride I’m offering. He then went on to call me a ‘selfish *****’ or perhaps it was a ‘greedy *****,’ and say I’ve put money ahead of my family every step of the way since moving here. I don’t even know what he’s talking about, but given the stories my parents and sisters circulate, it could be anything they’ve come up with.

My daughter has informed me that he’s perfectly right in asking for receipts, that when she and he lived together, they always put out receipts ‘as a common courtesy.’

So he has his free trip to New York. And has himself convinced that he is somehow in the right for refusing to pitch in anything at all. And no doubt believes that he has behaved like an adult by refusing to pitch in and calling the person who actually paid the entire trip ‘selfish’ and a ‘*****.’

 

[styrgwillidar]

… told me I hadn’t treated him like an adult this entire trip…

… call me a ‘selfish *****’ or perhaps it was a ‘greedy *****,’ …’

Sorry you had to learn all this about your nephew.

I would simply point out to him that you didn’t treat him like an adult because he hasn’t acted like one. You certainly can’t respect someone who doesn’t act respectably.

An adult man pays his debts, lives up to his words, and honors his commitments.

I’m sorry, I think it selfish and greedy to expect others to pay your way. Especially when you said up front you’d pitch in. Coveting what others have gained through their own hard work and thinking you should have some say in what they do with it is greedy, selfish, covetous, and unfortunately a sense of entitlement that’s all too common.

I guess I would end up telling him that I was sorry he hadn’t been up front about how destitute he is, and that you hadn’t realized that he was too ashamed and embarrassed to let you know he needed your charity up front.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yep, expensive lesson.

I took him because it was important to my daughter to have him at her graduation. It didn’t seem quite as important to my younger son to be there.

That is enough, right there. I didn’t go to most of the graduations of my older siblings, and I did not feel left out. I would have expected my parents to bring the cousins the age of my graduating sibling, instead of me. It would not have been any problem. You did a kind thing for your daughter and her cousin, even if it did cost you more than they represented that it would.

I took him because I have lived for years with my family condemning every move I make and telling me I’m wrong if others don’t get what they want. I’ve been working on that for the past 7, 8 years. Now they’re mad at me because I don’t give in every time, yet the impulse to always see someone else’s part is strong.

That is a bottomless pit of expectations that you can probably never meet and that may not even accomplish a positive outcome of you do. Don’t punish yourself for wishing it were different, though. That is not on your head. Live according to God’s standards of virtue, and if someone tries to manipulate you away from that, don’t feel guilty for ignoring them. Do what real charity demands, not the demands of the people who feel entitled to take advantage of the charitable.

I left a detailed penny by penny list on the table, taken from receipts, records on the trip, and credit card statements online, detailing what each was for, and went to Mass. When I got home, he informed me that he needed receipts, that he would not pay a penny without receipts. I told him (thanks to the poster above) that receipts are for IRS, employees reimbursing, and not for family vacations where he watched me spend every penny. He insisted he’s *entitled *to receipts, and told me I hadn’t treated him like an adult this entire trip.

He wanted to push and push. I finally said, “You can either contribute to the trip or I can take you to your grandparents.” He said he’d love to contribute…but refused to actually do it without receipts, and he doesn’t need the ride I’m offering. He then went on to call me a ‘selfish *****’ or perhaps it was a ‘greedy *****,’ and say I’ve put money ahead of my family every step of the way since moving here. I don’t even know what he’s talking about, but given the stories my parents and sisters circulate, it could be anything they’ve come up with.

My daughter has informed me that he’s perfectly right in asking for receipts, that when she and he lived together, they always put out receipts ‘as a common courtesy.’

So he has his free trip to New York. And has himself convinced that he is somehow in the right for refusing to pitch in anything at all. And no doubt believes that he has behaved like an adult by refusing to pitch in and calling the person who actually paid the entire trip ‘selfish’ and a ‘*****.’

It is funny how your daughter is so generous with your money.

Your daughter is wrong, and you ought to tell her that if she goes on a trip with a mere acquaintance, let alone a family member, and doesn’t readily agree to pay what she is told she owes and then some for their trouble when the trip is over, instead of treating the person she travelled with like some kind of a crook who has to prove that she owes what they say, you’d find her behavior disgusting and petty, too. If she doesn’t trust them more than that, she shouldn’t travel with them. What, does she sleep with her purse and jewelry under her pillow, with friends that she thinks are looking for a way to rip her off? The truth is, once she found out that her hand-picked guest had tried to stiff you, she ought to have paid you what you are owed out of her own pocket, and taken the matter up with this cousin herself.

There is nothing wrong with providing actual receipts, particularly between roommates who are buying daily necessities for each other on a regular basis and possibly for years on end, but most people I know find it small to figure expenses like that to the nickel. Some might even feel a bit hurt that you did provide receipts, as if you didn’t think they’d believe you about what they owed! If the bill were $332, we’d say it cost “around $300” or “around $325” and would have a hard time convincing the other person that they ought not try to make it $350 or $400, to make up for having supplied the car and the inconvenience of an extra passenger! We would not dream of questioning the integrity of our aunt or uncle by insisting on receipts! I’m not talking about spendthrifts, but about people who use teabags twice. It is not that they don’t care about money. It is a matter of putting people ahead of what is in your wallet.

I had an acquaintance who invited her roommates to share some soup she made, then asked them afterwards to “reimburse her for the vegetables”. We’re talking a dollar or two, and these were roommates who had extended similar kindnesses to her without ever expecting a dime. When I went out with her for lunch, she insisted on figuring the restaurant bill to the nickel, and was very cheap on the tip. I just quit going out with her unless I planned on paying the whole bill myself.

Life is too short to hang out with cheapskates, but we make sacrifices for the sake of family, and life is too short not to make some rather expensive efforts, there, too. You’re being treated badly, but the responsibility for that is not on your head.

PS The name-calling of an older relative was totally over the top. That was a total failure in respect. Even if you *had *been ripping him off, he can air his grievances without forgetting who it is that he’s talking to. If I were his parent, I’d be very upset about that.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Perhaps you should not accept any money (if you can afford to do that) but make a point to tell him that this is the last time he got an opportunity to behave in a rude and selfish way. And stick to that. It sounds like the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree in this case as well.

Boundaries. Boundaries. Boundaries.

I like this answer the best.

 

[ahs]

Perhaps you should not accept any money (if you can afford to do that) but make a point to tell him that this is the last time he got an opportunity to behave in a rude and selfish way. And stick to that. It sounds like the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree in this case as well.

Boundaries. Boundaries. Boundaries…

…by Drs. Cloud and Townsend…available at most local libraries if you don’t want to buy it.

amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/0310247454

 

[holyrood]

I guess I feel I have set boundaries. He’s previously been pleasant and agreeable the many times he’s stayed in my home. I have set boundaries with my parents and siblings and refused to go back to their homes due to their behavior. I told him I’m not comfortable with him sleeping with two young women and stood by that. When he told me he and my daughter had agreed the two of them would sit in the front seat of my car, I was clear that I would be taking the passenger seat in my own car now, and stood by that. I put a stop to what was going to turn into an endless discussion of my faults and told him he could either pitch in or head over to his grandparents…and he has left, albeit with ugly words. I have let my kids know he won’t be returning to my home.

I’ve read the book by Dr. Townsend, and in fact, my XH blames that book for my horrible behavior in not putting up with his lies any longer. I probably still own a copy somewhere.

I’m thinking maybe it’s time to go back to Al-Anon. I’ve put it off due to so many time pressures, but it may be that it needs to be moved up the priority list again.

 

[holyrood]

I would simply point out to him that you didn’t treat him like an adult because he hasn’t acted like one. You certainly can’t respect someone who doesn’t act respectably.

An adult man pays his debts, lives up to his words, and honors his commitments.

I told him exactly that: that he has not acted like an adult. I believe that’s where he started telling me I am not behaving like an adult, saying I’m behaving in an asinine way, and went on from there to more vulgarities.

You did a kind thing for your daughter and her cousin, even if it did cost you more than they represented that it would.

Thank you. I think I will choose to look back on this incident with that in mind.

That is a bottomless pit of expectations that you can probably never meet and that may not even accomplish a positive outcome of you do. Don’t punish yourself for wishing it were different, though. That is not on your head. Live according to God’s standards of virtue, and if someone tries to manipulate you away from that, don’t feel guilty for ignoring them. Do what real charity demands, not the demands of the people who feel entitled to take advantage of the charitable.

Thank you. I agree, I could never meet their demands. Key in my walking away about 5 years ago was realizing that they’d set hoops that were impossible to jump through and let me know if I didn’t manage to do so, I could expect more screaming rages directed at me.

Your daughter is wrong, and you ought to tell her that if she goes on a trip with a mere acquaintance, let alone a family member, and doesn’t readily agree to pay what she is told she owes and then some for their trouble when the trip is over, instead of treating the person she travelled with like some kind of a crook who has to prove that she owes what they say, …

There is nothing wrong with providing actual receipts, particularly between roommates who are buying daily necessities for each other on a regular basis and possibly for years on end, but most people I know find it small to figure expenses like that to the nickel. Some might even feel a bit hurt that you did provide receipts, as if you didn’t think they’d believe you about what they owed! If the bill were $332, we’d say it cost “around $300” or “around $325” and would have a hard time convincing the other person that they ought not try to make it $350 or $400, to make up for having supplied the car and the inconvenience of an extra passenger! We would not dream of questioning the integrity of our aunt or uncle by insisting on receipts! I’m not talking about spendthrifts, but about people who use teabags twice. It is not that they don’t care about money. It is a matter of putting people ahead of what is in your wallet.

Thank you again. I have found that most or probably all adults deal with things this way. I’ve gone on a couple of trips with a couple of different women, and this is how it is with us, too. We each just pitch in. I’m pretty sure that the litany from my family will be that he was justified in asking for receipts, and it’s good to hear from other sources that I’m not crazy in thinking that’s excessive and unrealistic, to have managed to save every receipt from every grocery store, gas station, hotel, etc.–and to be expected to when it’s right there on the credit card statement.

PS The name-calling of an older relative was totally over the top. That was a total failure in respect. Even if you *had *been ripping him off, he can air his grievances without forgetting who it is that he’s talking to. If I were his parent, I’d be very upset about that.

Yes. I’m truly shocked at him. I have been subjected to true abuse from my father–choking, being chased barefoot through snowbanks, being kicked out of the house in the middle of the night with two small children, harrassment while I’m trying to set up work appointments to the point I can’t do my job–and have never spoken to him like that or called him vulgar, profane names.

Of course, this kid is carrying a razor blade in his wallet and I’m wondering if there’s a drug issue starting or going on with him, too.

It’s all very sad.

 

[EasterJoy]

It makes a difference to fill in the facts that you did not in fact tolerate his unacceptable behavior. I never got the idea that you had obliged him on the sleeping arrangements, but wasn’t so sure you had not given him “guest” treatment on at least some of the other issues. Until you said the trip was for your daughter’s destination and this nasty relative was her hand-picked guest, it was not entirely clear why you wouldn’t have just cut the trip short! Obviously, though, he had you over a barrel, and he knew it. You were, as it turns out, hosting a group of your daughter’s friends, for your daughter’s benefit, and had to endure more than you’d like for her sake and the sake of her other guests.

I’m beginning to catch on that your original question was actually whether or not your nephew and your daughter were right to insist on receipts before he reimbursed you, and whether or not his other bad behavior had perhaps prejudiced you against what was otherwise a reasonable requirement. No, they were wrong, and you did nothing wrong. A few days down the Alice’s Rabbit Hole of life with a self-centered person can of course make you question yourself, but you’re OK. If there was a legitimate reason that your nephew had needed receipts in order to reimburse you, he would have had to request that in advance (with apologies for the inconvenience to you of not simply paying as you all went), because it is not the general rule among travelers who know each other well to require proof of a known expense.

It isn’t anything against you that other people try to manipulate you, especially if the family in question thinks they have carte blanche to manipulate their relatives as much as they like. For some people, to know them is to have them presume you are theirs to manipulate, to refuse to be manipulated is to put yourself on their bad side, and there is really no way around that. If this is how these relatives treat everyone else, of course they try them on you! Sure, some people respect people with boundaries and secretly despise the people who don’t have them, but that is hardly the rule. Therefore, it isn’t anything against you that self-centered people don’t like being around you. Actually, it is kind of a red flag if manipulative, self-centered people like that approve of you. In that case, you’re probably far too much in their back pocket for anyone’s good!

I’m sorry you have to deal with this, though. It is a great disappointment when you come to realize that your family does not “have your back”, and turn out to be a source of trials and not a source of support, in spite of your best efforts. I’m sure we all extend our condolences!