Nephew and road trip gone bad

[Xantippe]

“The other possibility is to ask him what he thinks he owes.”

Yeah. That’s a good option. Although he probably thinks he’s off the hook at this point, having been dispatched to grandma’s.

 

[EasterJoy]

“The other possibility is to ask him what he thinks he owes.”

Yeah. That’s a good option. Although he probably thinks he’s off the hook at this point, having been dispatched to grandma’s.

Yes. “Justin, you agreed to pay your way, but you haven’t paid me a dime. What do you think you owe me? You know how far we drove, where we stayed, and how much you ate. What is your estimate of the cost? What did you have budgeted? You did have a figure in mind when you promised to pay your way, right?”

Who knows, maybe he had something budgeted when he made his promise, then when the actual cost was far higher than what he’d bargained for he was too proud to admit he simply doesn’t have the money.

 

[Xantippe]

“Who knows, maybe he had something budgeted when he made his promise, then when the actual cost was far higher than what he’d bargained for he was too proud to admit he simply doesn’t have the money.”

That crossed my mind, too. The one time I stayed in NYC, I was along with my husband for interviews at a conference. We initially had the conference rate at our hotel, which was around $150 a night (or $200–something like that). Then a blizzard hit and our flight was cancelled and we were stuck in NYC for an extra night. The conference rate was no longer operational and the hotel was suddenly $400 a night for a room about the size of my current master bath.

I imagine NYC is a very traumatic experience for a tightwad.

 

[EasterJoy]

“Who knows, maybe he had something budgeted when he made his promise, then when the actual cost was far higher than what he’d bargained for he was too proud to admit he simply doesn’t have the money.”

That crossed my mind, too. The one time I stayed in NYC, I was along with my husband for interviews at a conference. We initially had the conference rate at our hotel, which was around $150 a night (or $200–something like that). Then a blizzard hit and our flight was cancelled and we were stuck in NYC for an extra night. The conference rate was no longer operational and the hotel was suddenly $400 a night for a room about the size of my current master bath.

I imagine NYC is a very traumatic experience for a tightwad.

It’s traumatic for anyone who doesn’t have a bottomless wallet!!

 

[holyrood]

But again, if anyone I knew agreed to pay expenses and then got home to find their host was refusing to show receipts because she intended to pay for everything after all, they’d try to estimate what they owed in order to offer to pay something. If he was trying in good faith to be fair, he would have offered to pay something. As it is, he’s just being cheap. Again: I can’t imagine why the daughter is sticking up for someone who is sticking her mother after the mother did him a favor. It makes you shake your head.

I wish I’d remembered to simply say, “What do you think you owe me?” I forgot.

However, I agree, if he was making a good faith effort, he would have said so, anyway, and if the kid isn’t afraid to swear at me, there was nothing stopping him asking about the medical tape. So all in all, I’ve begun to suspect that he never intended to help out at all.

The other ‘adult’ in the car, my 21 year old neighbor, has also made no effort to pitch in. My daughter has now moved her things over to live there, so the girl certainly knows this is an issue.

I’m disgusted beyond belief.

However, a friend took me to a nice riverside village with wonderful antique shops and treated me to terrific shrimp kebabs. Nephew will not be returning here nor having more trips with us.

 

[Xantippe]

“The other ‘adult’ in the car, my 21 year old neighbor, has also made no effort to pitch in. My daughter has now moved her things over to live there, so the girl certainly knows this is an issue.”

That’s really unfortunate.

 

[Xantippe]

Don’t let this thing cost you your relationship with your daughter.

 

[EasterJoy]

I wish I’d remembered to simply say, “What do you think you owe me?” I forgot.

However, I agree, if he was making a good faith effort, he would have said so, anyway, and if the kid isn’t afraid to swear at me, there was nothing stopping him asking about the medical tape. So all in all, I’ve begun to suspect that he never intended to help out at all.

The other ‘adult’ in the car, my 21 year old neighbor, has also made no effort to pitch in. My daughter has now moved her things over to live there, so the girl certainly knows this is an issue.

I’m disgusted beyond belief.

However, a friend took me to a nice riverside village with wonderful antique shops and treated me to terrific shrimp kebabs. Nephew will not be returning here nor having more trips with us.

I don’t think I’d just assume that your daughter’s friend “knows” this is an issue. If I were forced to make a guess and take even odds, I’d bet that your daughter, generous as she is with your bank account, has told her friend “oh, if Mom hasn’t asked you for anything, don’t worry about it” or, if DD is on the outs with you, maybe something like “Mom? Forget Mom. She’s not exactly on my top ten list right now” or perhaps even, “Mom? Sheesh…she didn’t even keep any receipts! Justin isn’t paying her anything, either. I am sorry, but Mother is just SO clueless, sometimes.” I would be a bit surprised if DD were advocating for payment from her new roommate, let’s just say that.

Unless I had already decided to eat the expense and vow not to invite any of your daughters friends into my car for any reason short of an emergency evacuation of the city, I think I’d sit down with my daughter and ask her what is up with the guests she invited to travel with you. Did she imply to them that you did not need or want help with travel expenses? If so, where did she get this idea? If not, well, no one has given you a dime, and how would she like to handle this? Does she want to talk with them, does she want you to talk with them, does she want to cover their expenses herself…or? This is a bit on her head, after all. I wouldn’t presume that the friend has stiffed you with no “familial permission”, though, let’s just say that.

 

[holyrood]

Don’t let this thing cost you your relationship with your daughter.

It’s hard to see it as a good relationship right now, or to want a relationship with someone who defends and supports two people in breaking their word to me this way. The total between the two of them is $400. My daughter is a bit of a ringleader, and I believe if she said to them, “You really should keep your word to my mother,” things would have turned out very differently.

I’ll admit, I’m a little tired of feeling that those closest to me (parents, ex-husband) do not have my back, and have no loyalty or concern for me. I’m a little tired of worrying about maintaining relationships with people who do that.

 

[EasterJoy]

It’s hard to see it as a good relationship right now, or to want a relationship with someone who defends and supports two people in breaking their word to me this way. The total between the two of them is $400. My daughter is a bit of a ringleader, and I believe if she said to them, “You really should keep your word to my mother,” things would have turned out very differently.

I’ll admit, I’m a little tired of feeling that those closest to me (parents, ex-husband) do not have my back, and have no loyalty or concern for me. I’m a little tired of worrying about maintaining relationships with people who do that.

They do sometimes grow out of it. That’s a lot of money to just eat. I hope somebody gives you something, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Oh, well, if your daughter comes to you wanting to borrow money, the absence of that $400 can be noted…and she can be sent to her two friends, to borrow from them. (OK, maybe you relent, but the point can be made that she’s not exactly been careful with her ol’ mom’s wallet.)

 

[holyrood]

They do sometimes grow out of it. That’s a lot of money to just eat. I hope somebody gives you something, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Oh, well, if your daughter comes to you wanting to borrow money, the absence of that $400 can be noted…and she can be sent to her two friends, to borrow from them. (OK, maybe you relent, but the point can be made that she’s not exactly been careful with her ol’ mom’s wallet.)

No. She will not be borrowing from me. The absence of that $400 certainly will be mentioned to her, as will a reminder that, since she sat by and watched them break promises, and did nothing to object, she clearly doesn’t have too big an issue with breaking promises to me.

She’ll object, as she always HAS repaid anything she borrows. Regardless, I feel she has been a contributing factor to them feeling they can do this. There will be that consequence at the very least of no more money dealings with her, either.

 

[EasterJoy]

No. She will not be borrowing from me. The absence of that $400 certainly will be mentioned to her, as will a reminder that, since she sat by and watched them break promises, and did nothing to object, she clearly doesn’t have too big an issue with breaking promises to me.

She’ll object, as she always HAS repaid anything she borrows. Regardless, I feel she has been a contributing factor to them feeling they can do this. There will be that consequence at the very least of no more money dealings with her, either.

*“I took him because it was important to my daughter to have him at her graduation. It didn’t seem quite as important to my younger son to be there.” …

My daughter has informed me that he’s perfectly right in asking for receipts, that when she and he lived together, they always put out receipts ‘as a common courtesy.’

So he has his free trip to New York. And has himself convinced that he is somehow in the right for refusing to pitch in anything at all. And no doubt believes that he has behaved like an adult by refusing to pitch in and calling the person who actually paid the entire trip ‘selfish’ and a '*****."*

I think it fair to consider your daughter a full co-signor on these “loans”. If your friends had gotten a ride with her, be very sure that she’d not expect anything different from you than what you are asking from her for yourself: either get your friend to pony up or else cover their expenses herself. Well, dear, you’re a grown-up now, so guess what…

 

[Xantippe]

“…since she sat by and watched them break promises…”

So the neighbor also promised to chip in and then didn’t follow through? Oh, dear.

It sounds like it would have been better to have different people responsible for different expenses rather than settling accounts at the end–you pay for the hotel, Cousin George buys groceries twice, neighbor pays for gas twice, etc.

I know your daughter isn’t your favorite person right now, but she’s young and fixable. Don’t let this take down your relationship.

 

[EasterJoy]

“…since she sat by and watched them break promises…”

So the neighbor also promised to chip in and then didn’t follow through? Oh, dear.

It sounds like it would have been better to have different people responsible for different expenses rather than settling accounts at the end–you pay for the hotel, Cousin George buys groceries twice, neighbor pays for gas twice, etc.

I know your daughter isn’t your favorite person right now, but she’s young and fixable. Don’t let this take down your relationship.

The neighbor is also, ahem, an adult, not a 15 year old. Surely as an adult you wouldn’t accept the kind of largess the OP provided without offering to pay her at least something? As in, she’d have to do a lot of insisting to keep you from paying her something for a trip that would have cost you far more if you’d found an other arrangements? When you get old enough that your parents don’t offer to pay your way on trips like this, you need to wise up and pick up your own tab. It is not as if these young people had some cheaper way to get where they wanted to go and someplace free they could’ve stayed, instead. If the neighbor and the cousin could have swung this trip on their own, I’m thinking they would have done that.

But yes, if the daughter leaves Mom high and dry, Mom can still elect to stay on good terms. The next time there is a question of money, though, it needs to be “sorry, I’m not up for another $400 hit. I’m a slow learner, but I’m not that slow.”

 

[agnes_therese]

Don’t let this thing cost you your relationship with your daughter.

It’s her daughter that’s costing her a relationship.

 

[holyrood]

It’s her daughter that’s costing her a relationship.

Sadly, I agree with this. I grew up having my parents accuse me of ‘burning your bridges’ if I got upset with people doing unfair, unkind things and reacted. In the last 5 years or so, I have gone no contact with them over the continued rages, dysfunctions, accusations, etc, and I have heard the warning that I’m burning my bridges with them. My feeling has finally become that it’s not a case of me burning bridges, but of me no longer running for buckets of water to douse the fires they start.

Yes, her behavior, especially as I have time to reflect on her part in it as opposed to the immediate blow up with the nephew, is also out of line and that does damage a relationship.

But yes, if the daughter leaves Mom high and dry, Mom can still elect to stay on good terms. The next time there is a question of money, though, it needs to be “sorry, I’m not up for another $400 hit. I’m a slow learner, but I’m not that slow.”

I suppose the key is to find that fine balance of leaving a door open without her thinking she can do this again.

What will happen is that, given the dynamics of family of origin, they’ll back up her and the nephew, regardless of any other adult in the world saying it’s ridiculous to demand receipts. Next time she wants something, she’ll go to her father. He’ll be the nice guy and give whatever she wants, because he likes always being the Good Parent. If she pays him back, it will be proof in their minds that he did things right and See, no problems between us. If she doesn’t, he’ll let it go and continue doing whatever she wants at his own expense so he can be the favored parent, go more deeply into debt, because he really can’t afford it, and they’ll all take the attitude that it’s my fault he’s in such bad financial shape because I’m the ‘greedy *****’ who’s now ‘holding grudges’ and blaming her for her cousin’s decision.

I have mastered the logic of alcoholic families.

 

[Xantippe]

“The next time there is a question of money, though, it needs to be “sorry, I’m not up for another $400 hit. I’m a slow learner, but I’m not that slow.””

Right. This is something that should be dealt with “next time” somebody suggestions that reimbursements will happen at some later date. If you follow the method I suggest (Cousin George pays for groceries twice, Neighbor Suzie pays for gas twice) you can just pull into the gas station on the way out and waaaiit until somebody swipes.

“It’s her daughter that’s costing her a relationship.”

Yeah, but the OP is the experienced adult in the situation and she’s the one who can see how dangerous it is.

Also, it’s somewhat age appropriate for a young 20-something to be more loyal to her friends (and I count Cousin George as a friend) as compared to close relatives. I remember myself at that age, and I had very similar behavior toward older relatives. 1) I was detaching from them in favor of friends nearer my own age but 2) I wasn’t yet totally financially independent and 3) I had a tendency to expect older relatives to treat my friends or pay for good causes I was involved with. I wasn’t a bad person or an especially immature 21-year-old, but I did need to learn that generosity means being generous with my money, not other people’s money and that meant I needed to make my money.

This is a lesson that needs to be taught, but it needs to be taught gently to preserve the relationship with the daughter.

 

[Xantippe]

“Next time she wants something, she’ll go to her father. He’ll be the nice guy and give whatever she wants, because he likes always being the Good Parent. If she pays him back, it will be proof in their minds that he did things right and See, no problems between us. If she doesn’t, he’ll let it go and continue doing whatever she wants at his own expense so he can be the favored parent, go more deeply into debt, because he really can’t afford it, and they’ll all take the attitude that it’s my fault he’s in such bad financial shape because I’m the ‘greedy *****’ who’s now ‘holding grudges’ and blaming her for her cousin’s decision.”

Have you pointed out to your daughter that her father is in very poor financial shape?

I’m just afraid that surrounded by so much family dysfunction, you’re now in shoot-first-ask-questions-later mode. Your daughter is still young and still on her way to becoming the mature adult she’s eventually going to be. There’s the potential now for permanently poisoning your relationship with her if you play your cards wrong. You don’t have to give her the moon or be a doormat, but bear in mind how peer-influenced young people are at that age, and how much they want to please their contemporaries, how little they know about money, and how little value they put on what mom and dad think. You don’t have to be a particularly vicious 22-year-old to be like that. Just try to love her for now, while making wise financial choices. (I’m sure it’s crossed your mind that you could have fed an entire village of hungry African children for what you spent on the two non-paying members of your road trip.)

If your daughter is still exactly like this four years from now, I think that could be evidence of poor character, but for the moment, nothing that you’ve mentioned that she’s done or said is unusual for a young woman her age.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Yes, her behavior, especially as I have time to reflect on her part in it as opposed to the immediate blow up with the nephew, is also out of line and that does damage a relationship.

Was this behaviour out of character for her?

If no, do you know where the root of the problem is? (My guess is the dysfunctional family but I’m sure there are details that are relevant.)

If yes, any idea why she behaved like that? Is something else going on in her life that is making her behave in strange ways?

I agree with Xantippe about what she said in post no.58. She is still young enough to not fully understand some things. If this was out of character for her, I’d have a conversation about it so she knows exactly how she betrayed and hurt her mother and forgive her.

If this was not unusual, then I’d take a tougher approach.

 

[holyrood]

“It’s her daughter that’s costing her a relationship.”

Yeah, but the OP is the experienced adult in the situation and she’s the one who can see how dangerous it is.

Yes, that’s true.

Also, it’s somewhat age appropriate for a young 20-something to be more loyal to her friends (and I count Cousin George as a friend) as compared to close relatives. I remember myself at that age, and I had very similar behavior toward older relatives. 1) I was detaching from them in favor of friends nearer my own age but 2) I wasn’t yet totally financially independent and 3) I had a tendency to expect older relatives to treat my friends or pay for good causes I was involved with. I wasn’t a bad person or an especially immature 21-year-old, but I did need to learn that generosity means being generous with my money, not other people’s money and that meant I needed to make my money.

This is a lesson that needs to be taught, but it needs to be taught gently to preserve the relationship with the daughter.

Thank you for this perspective on it. I did find it interesting she was stressing over and over to me how MUCH money $200 is, while apparently not realizing that $1600, total cost of the trip, is quite a bit more. And missing the realization that she, her cousin, and friend, all continue to live rent free with their $200 while I have monthly bills, 7 kids to feed, and a major driveway repair ($4K) this summer with my $1600. Perhaps part of the teaching is discussing that with her kindly.

“Next time she wants something, she’ll go to her father. He’ll be the nice guy and give whatever she wants, because he likes always being the Good Parent. If she pays him back, it will be proof in their minds that he did things right and See, no problems between us. If she doesn’t, he’ll let it go and continue doing whatever she wants at his own expense so he can be the favored parent, go more deeply into debt, because he really can’t afford it, and they’ll all take the attitude that it’s my fault he’s in such bad financial shape because I’m the ‘greedy *****’ who’s now ‘holding grudges’ and blaming her for her cousin’s decision.”

Have you pointed out to your daughter that her father is in very poor financial shape?

No. It’s never come up. I’m sure she hears it from the other kids because he lets them know and they worry about it amongst themselves. However, in typical fashion, it’s often blamed on me–for ‘stealing’ his money (ie, child support, he pays no alimony), or for divorcing him at all. (The truth is, he was so deeply in debt, behind my back, I believe we would have lost the house sooner or later. By making a legal break, I have made sure I can continue to provide a home for these kids when his house of credit cards collapses.)

I’m just afraid that surrounded by so much family dysfunction, you’re now in shoot-first-ask-questions-later mode.

Possible. It becomes very difficult, perhaps impossible, to really deal with these things well when she and her cousin are almost certainly being backed up by their relatives.

If your daughter is still exactly like this four years from now, I think that could be evidence of poor character, but for the moment, nothing that you’ve mentioned that she’s done or said is unusual for a young woman her age.

Overall, she’s really doing well for her age and taken on a great deal of responsibility for herself. She has rarely asked for money except in major emergencies (for example, she lived in Manhattan during Sandy and there was a lot of stress and upheaval as she lost her home and had to be re-located–two or three times–at the same time she was taking GREs for graduate school.)

She is actually the only one of the four legal adults who did pitch in during the trip. I believe she actually bought a meal or two for her friend and cousin, and I did wonder that they stood around letting her buy for them, too. She is also the only one of the four who pitched in without being asked to help with the planning and organizing beforehand–which was a major job in itself.