New American Bible footnotes on 1 Cor 3:15

  • Thread starter Thread starter LatinCatholic1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

LatinCatholic1

Guest
Now I have a NAB revised version, and it was approved from Catholic Bishops, and is even used for the Mass readings we celebrate here in the USA. The problem is that the footnotes for 1 Cor 3:15 says it does not support purgatory. Why does this footnote say this when Catholic Apologists use this verse all the time to prove purgatory?

God Bless
 
On page 454, A Commentary on the New Testament, published by the Catholic Biblical Association in 1942, discusses this verse and says, in part:
Purgatory is not here referred to directly, since this is the last day when purgatory will cease. But by analogy this implies that those who die before the last day will have to suffer for their venial sins before gaining salvation. It is possible that the comparison is suggested because of fire in purgatory, but the fire cannot be proved from this text.
 
Pope Benedict, as well as many Early Church Fathers, use the verse to teach Purgatory. See What is Purgatory? for quotes. 😉

As for the NAB, I can’t say what that particular commentators mindset is when he says v.15 singularly does not “envisage purgatory”. Does he mean the passage or the verse by itself in a vacuum? If he does think this passage has nothing to do with purgatory, then he is in a miniscule minority among Catholic theologians (Todd gives another example), and probably some traditional non-Catholic ones. It certainly shouldn’t shake your confidence in the purgatorial quality of the passage. Unfortunately, the footnotes aren’t always going to be sound, and reflect the opinion of whatever theologian made that contribution.

See also Msgr. Charles Pope (Archdiocese of Washington) and his comments in the article New American Bible: Problems on Purgatory. He addresses your exact question.
 
The footnotes in the NAB were awful. I do not have an NABRE, but I hear that some, or maybe all, of the footnotes are the same. They can be toxic. An older, more orthodox set of footnotes or commentary is far better. You cannot go wrong with the Haydock commentary:

"Ver. 12-15. Now if any man build, &c. This is a hard place, says St. Augustine, lib. de fid. & Oper. chap. xvi. tom. 6. p. 180. The interpreters are divided, as to the explication and application of this metaphorical comparison, contained in these four verses. St. Paul speaks of a building, where it is evident, says St. Augustine, that the foundation is Christ, or the faith of Christ, and his faith working by charity. The difficulties are 1. Who are the builders. 2. What is meant by gold, silver, precious stones, and what by wood, hay, stubble. 3. What is meant by the day of the Lord. 4. What by fire, how every one’s work shall be tried, and how some shall be saved by fire. As to the first, by the builders, as St. Paul had before called himself the first architect, who had laid the foundation of the faith of Christ among the Corinthians, interpreters commonly understand those doctors and preachers who there succeeded St. Paul: but as it is also said, that every man’s works shall be made manifest, St. Augustine and others understand not the preachers only, but all the faithful. As to the second difficulty, if by the builders we understand the preachers of the gospel, then by gold, silver, &c., is to be understood, good, sound, and profitable doctrine; and by wood, hay, stubble, a mixture of vain knowledge, empty flourishes, unprofitable discourses; but if all the faithful are builders, they whose actions are pure, lay gold upon the foundation; but if their actions are mixed with imperfections, venial failings, and lesser sins, these are represented by wood, hay, stubble, &c. 3. By the day of the Lord, is commonly understood either the day of general judgment, or the particular judgment, when every one is judged at his death, which sentence shall be confirmed again at the last day. 4. As to fire, which is mentioned thrice, if we consider what St. Paul says here of fire, he seems to use it in different significations, as he many times does other words. First, he tells us, (ver. 13.) that the day of the Lord…shall be revealed; or, as it is in the Greek, is revealed in, or by fire; where, by fire, is commonly understood the just and severe judgments of God, represented by the metaphor of fire. Secondly, he tells us in the same verse, that fire shall try every one’s work, of what sort it is. This may be again taken for the examining and trying fire of God’s judgments: and may be applied to the builders, whether preachers only or all the faithful. Thirdly, he tells us, (ver. 14. and 15.) that some men’s works abide the fire of God’s judgments, they deserve no punishment, they are like pure gold, which receives no prejudice from the fire: but some men’s works burn, the superstructure, which they built upon the faith of Christ, besides gold, silver, precious stones, had also a mixture of wood, hay, stubble, which could not stand the trial of fire, which met with combustible matter, that deserved to be burnt. Every such man shall suffer a loss, when his works are burnt, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. Here the apostle speaks of fire in a more ample signification: of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life (for the time of this life is the day of men). Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time) made answer, that these words of St. Paul were expounded by St. Chrysostom and some of their Greek Fathers (which is true) of the wicked in hell, who are said to be saved by fire, inasmuch as they always subsist and continue in those flames, and are not destroyed by them: but this interpretation, as the Latin bishops replied, is not agreeable to the style of the holy Scriptures, in which, to be saved, both in the Greek and Latin, is expressed the salvation and happiness of souls in heaven. It may not be amiss to take notice that the Greeks, before they met with the Latins at Ferrara, of Florence, did not deny the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. They admitted a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins, suffered for a time, till cleansed from such sins: they allowed that the souls there detained from the vision of God, might be assisted by the prayers of the faithful: they called this purgatory a place of darkness, of sorrow, of punishments, and pains, but they did not allow there a true and material fire, which the Council did not judge necessary to decide and define against them, as appears in the definition of the Council. (Conc. Labb tom. xiii. p. 515.) (Witham) — The fire of which St. Paul here speaks, is the fire of purgatory, according to the Fathers, and all Catholic divines. (Calmet) — St. Augustine, expounding Psalm xxxvii. ver. 1., gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God’s justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.
 
Now I have a NAB revised version, and it was approved from Catholic Bishops, and is even used for the Mass readings we celebrate here in the USA. The problem is that the footnotes for 1 Cor 3:15 says it does not support purgatory. Why does this footnote say this when Catholic Apologists use this verse all the time to prove purgatory?

God Bless
Because it doesn’t? That section of Scriptures is speaking to Christians, those already saved, but through sin loose their rewards or treasures built up in heaven. There is no Scripture on the existence of such a place; that is purely Catholic tradition. Don’t know when that entered into the tradition, but no one in the NT speaks of it nor in the OT and if it were in Scripture, then it would be Jesus who would be the most likely to speak to such a doctrine since He spoke more on hell than all the other writers combined because He is the only one who would know.
 
Because it doesn’t? That section of Scriptures is speaking to Christians, those already saved, but through sin loose their rewards or treasures built up in heaven. There is no Scripture on the existence of such a place; that is purely Catholic tradition. Don’t know when that entered into the tradition, but no one in the NT speaks of it nor in the OT and if it were in Scripture, then it would be Jesus who would be the most likely to speak to such a doctrine since He spoke more on hell than all the other writers combined because He is the only one who would know.
Why then would Jesus say that some will not be released until they have paid the last debt, and why would He speak of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being unforgivable in either this life or the next? How would the Jews hearing Him understand Him, those who were familiar with the deuterocanonical books’ statements like “The souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. …Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace, He proved them, and as sacrificial offerings He took them to Himself” (Wisdom 3:1-9)?

But ultimately this all falls back upon our soteriology. To a Protestant, justification is imputed and therefore Christ’s sacrifice settled it once-and-for-all so long as you believe. To a Catholic, justification is infused and can increase or decrease dependent upon how much we take advantage of the grace merited for us by Him. So in our soteriology Purgatory is necessary — otherwise only those perfected in this life could access Heaven. The way you say “those already saved” shows that you have a different view than us on what salvation actually is, one that is more of a once-for-all sort of thing with Christlikeness as a fruit, but to a Catholic salvation encompasses the entirety of life. I entered into salvation and was justified at Baptism, by cooperating with grace I work to keep that salvation and become more justified (sanctification), and if I hold to it till death then God takes care of the rest and then I can consider myself saved saved.
 
The Ignatius Study Bible calls it Purgatory Tradition, but mentions Christian workers who’s efforts are shabby and imperfect.
 
It’s been many years since I read the NAB but I must say I also found the footnotes… less than inspiring and in some cases very worrisome. That experience was one reason that I’ve avoided it since then. So I was interested to hear during the USCCB’s 2012 Spring General Assembly that future revision is being planned for the NAB New Testament.

The NAB Old Testament has already been revised, the imprimatur was granted the Administrative Committee in 2010 with the text published last year. The Confraternity of Christian Doctrine then requested that the NAB New Testament footnotes be revised. However the Administrative Committee recommended that both text and footnotes be revised.

I don’t recall mention if the Old Testament footnotes were also revised in its process, but I hope they were; does anyone know for sure?

For more info, the 6th link (the last one) of the USCCB Video On-Demand has the presentation of Archbishop Aymond of New Orleans and Cardinal Wuerl, starting around 1.31.00.
usccb.org/about/leadership/usccb-general-assembly/2012-june-meeting/video-on-demand.cfm
 
Because it doesn’t? That section of Scriptures is speaking to Christians, those already saved, but through sin loose their rewards or treasures built up in heaven. There is no Scripture on the existence of such a place; that is purely Catholic tradition. Don’t know when that entered into the tradition, but no one in the NT speaks of it nor in the OT and if it were in Scripture, then it would be Jesus who would be the most likely to speak to such a doctrine since He spoke more on hell than all the other writers combined because He is the only one who would know.
Oh really? Christians already saved? Getting saved through a pastor is tradition and not in scripture. Prove there is no such thing as purgatory then we will move on, If you proved that purgatory dosent exist and that it was just tradition that the Church made up, then the early Church fathers and myrters died for a false faith, right?

God Bless
 
Because it doesn’t? That section of Scriptures is speaking to Christians, those already saved, but through sin loose their rewards or treasures built up in heaven. There is no Scripture on the existence of such a place; that is purely Catholic tradition. Don’t know when that entered into the tradition, but no one in the NT speaks of it nor in the OT and if it were in Scripture, then it would be Jesus who would be the most likely to speak to such a doctrine since He spoke more on hell than all the other writers combined because He is the only one who would know.
You do realize that your lack of belief in purgatory is a relatively recent, man-made revision of consistent Christian belief? Please read up on how many of your protestant brothers (and ours) also hold to such a state of purification after death. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

As well, this is a Catholic site, with a Catholic asking other Catholics a question. I do not think that he sought to have his beliefs challenged, but rather strengthened. You are always welcome to put forth your opinion, but please remember that it remains opinion. We will listen, but, quite obviously, disagree with you.

Besides, I do not think you understand the teaching. As well, you have not seen all of the scriptures that support it. It is a state of being, not a place. Jesus spoke of sins that will be forgiven in the next life. Paul wrote of a purifying fire on the day of judgment. And, Judas Maccabeus, of the high priestly class, prayed that the dead might be loosed from their sins. How is that to happen, if not in some sort of state of purification?

Please also read the Haydock commentary above (in post # 4) if you would like to know why Catholics and other Christians believe in the final cleansing.
 
through sin loose their rewards or treasures built up in heaven.
One moment please - in the Protestant understanding is a person’s heavenly reward based upon his works or upon Christ’s work?
 
…it would be Jesus who would be the most likely to speak to such a doctrine …
Besides, St. Paul’s discussion in 1 Cor 3:15, some also see an allusion to an after-death purgatorial process in these words of Jesus:
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. (Matthew 5:25-26)
Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you.” (John 13:10)
 
Why then would Jesus say that some will not be released until they have paid the last debt, and why would He speak of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being unforgivable in either this life or the next? How would the Jews hearing Him understand Him, those who were familiar with the deuterocanonical books’ statements like “The souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. …Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace, He proved them, and as sacrificial offerings He took them to Himself” (Wisdom 3:1-9)?

But ultimately this all falls back upon our soteriology. To a Protestant, justification is imputed and therefore Christ’s sacrifice settled it once-and-for-all so long as you believe. To a Catholic, justification is infused and can increase or decrease dependent upon how much we take advantage of the grace merited for us by Him. So in our soteriology Purgatory is necessary — otherwise only those perfected in this life could access Heaven. The way you say “those already saved” shows that you have a different view than us on what salvation actually is, one that is more of a once-for-all sort of thing with Christlikeness as a fruit, but to a Catholic salvation encompasses the entirety of life. I entered into salvation and was justified at Baptism, by cooperating with grace I work to keep that salvation and become more justified (sanctification), and if I hold to it till death then God takes care of the rest and then I can consider myself saved saved.
First - God seeks and saves the lost - repeat God does the seeking and God does the saving - no contribution on man’s part. Even the ability to believe by faith is a gift according to Paul in Ephesians. The Psalmist said that Salvation belongs to the LORD and it does. Absent from the body is to be present with who? Did Paul not know what he was talking about. Was David wrong when his first child with Bathsheba died and he said I will come to you?

Here is where you get your info “Where do Catholics get the idea of purgatory from?”
The person(s) who wrote prove they cannot understand the correct meaning of Scripture because they take passage after passage, including the one in this topic, out of it’s biblical context - that is what the religious person(s) do and only able to do according to 1 Cor. 2:14.

To prove the point, which I hope you see here is a simple passage that is clearly understood by simply reading. “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.” - Matt. 5:26 Translation - if you do not reconcile with your enemy, then you will be in a debtors prison (common in His day) and you will remain there till you have worked of all you owe. How simple is that? It means what it says. Jesus in this whole section of the sermon on the mount is mixing spiritual truths with carnal examples. So for those who are enemies with God; that one will pay forever in a place called HELL.

Second - the Book of Wisdom? Give me a break that is not an inspired book and if you need to resort to that, then there is no point in speaking - I’ll just continue to pray.

Finally - Soteriology ( theology that deals with salvation ), anyone who gets this wrong has another gospel and will be damned if they were to depart in such condition. I can’t speak for all, what you blanket as Protestants, only speak for myself and my household. The Bible clearly teaches the total sovereignty of God when it comes to salvation and it is and always has been by one word “Faith” - two words to be clear “Saving Faith” because any other is dead faith as James rightly explained. One is justified at the moment one believes the true gospel, then the process of becoming conformed to the image of Christ (sanctification - another work of God), then final glorification (another work of God). The sequence is found in Romans 8:26 and specifally in verse 29. The Christian is His workmanship - again His workmanship -Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

The Christian is a created being; only God can create things that breathe and they are in Christ for the purpose/result of good works, which God decided on before the world was. Mind tingling isn’t it, but that truth concerning election is so hated, but that is simply because man likes to have a say and he doesn’t and because man doesn’t understand the true depths of sin nor of God’s holiness. Doesn’t God describe the Christian as a “new creation”? Yes. Doesn’t God say old things (spiritual slavery to sin) have passed away and behold new? Slave to God rather than sin. Isn’t this in the now and the final perfection, the glorification, in the future after the death of the body? Yes.

I see the comfort people find in purgatory - it takes away the reality that God is sovereign over who will be in heaven and by default, who will not and puts it in the hands of man. The comfort of knowing you fail but will just suffer a while before God finally says “okay - you have been punished enough - come on up good and faithful servant” - no God could not call someone in such a state as “good and faithful”, but that is what He does say to all who will be in heaven. Personally - purgatory makes for a Jesus who not able to fully redeem those the Father has given Him and therefore turns the atonement on it’s head.

Election makes Him seem mean to those who despise the obvious teaching all over scripture, but that is to not understand mercy nor grace for if everyone got what they deserve, which is eternal damnation, then God would still be just and glorified, but in His mercy and grace He saves a remnant today like He did in the NT - the part of Israel that was saved has always been a remnant. The clearest example is the flood where all of mankind was destroyed except for 8 - think about that. How many people do you think were on the earth - it was millions if not tens or hundreds of millions, but only eight survived the waters of judgment. Blessings - hope you find this exhortation helpful.
 
Oh really? Christians already saved? Getting saved through a pastor is tradition and not in scripture. Prove there is no such thing as purgatory then we will move on, If you proved that purgatory dosent exist and that it was just tradition that the Church made up, then the early Church fathers and myrters died for a false faith, right?

God Bless
Proving a negative (something non existent) is self defeating - true reading the bible for understanding, that is where God has spoken. The earliest church fathers, the writers of the NT and the prophets and Kings of the OT have no such animal - oh some will take the words of someone like Clement of Alexandria and take a sound bite and make him say whatever they want - the same with the word of God.

Interesting though from my research on this - even among Catholics there has always been a debate over the topic and ironically more Catholics are dismissing the Catholic doctrine and some Protestants are embracing it. It’s origins are up for much speculation in all religious circles under the Christian umbrella.

When Jesus speaks of this age and the age to come; what do you think He is saying? Consider to whom He is speaking, the Jewish religious leaders and the key to understanding the passage is to look at the use of the word “age”. What is this age? What is the age to come? How is it used in other parts of scripture? These are things that must be considered. I’ll let you think about that. God bless you!!
 
You do realize that your lack of belief in purgatory is a relatively recent, man-made revision of consistent Christian belief? Please read up on how many of your protestant brothers (and ours) also hold to such a state of purification after death. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

As well, this is a Catholic site, with a Catholic asking other Catholics a question. I do not think that he sought to have his beliefs challenged, but rather strengthened. You are always welcome to put forth your opinion, but please remember that it remains opinion. We will listen, but, quite obviously, disagree with you.

Besides, I do not think you understand the teaching. As well, you have not seen all of the scriptures that support it. It is a state of being, not a place. Jesus spoke of sins that will be forgiven in the next life. Paul wrote of a purifying fire on the day of judgment. And, Judas Maccabeus, of the high priestly class, prayed that the dead might be loosed from their sins. How is that to happen, if not in some sort of state of purification?

Please also read the Haydock commentary above (in post # 4) if you would like to know why Catholics and other Christians believe in the final cleansing.
Better do your homework before posting - see my reply just before this one. There are no Scriptures to support only people who pervert the scripture to make it say what they want it to say usually because they can’t understand the scripture 1 cor 2:14. The same thing is done all the time whenever someone takes a sound bite and makes it fir their agenda. If purgatory did exist, then Jesus atonement is ineffectual and weak at best even though He is God almighty and then God is now dependent on man. Won’t find that in scripture, but you will find the truth of election all over - hated by most because it takes all the work of salvation out of mans hands and gives it where it is due - God’s hands.
 
One moment please - in the Protestant understanding is a person’s heavenly reward based upon his works or upon Christ’s work?
Ask a protestant; I’m an individual who has recognized how ugly my sin is/was against God and how beautiful His holiness is and put my faith, a gift from my God, in His Son and have cried out for mercy and He has changed me from the inside out. Over the years I can see the proof as examined against 1 John and more importantly the one’s who know me best have witnessed the regenerate work of God in my life - all aspects.
 
The NAB footnotes are some of my least favorite among Catholic footnotes. They are very untraditional, which in my opinion defeats the purpose of following the Church that is so rich in tradition. We have the Fathers and Doctors of the Church that has left us with so much treasure, and to bypass all that is like trying to be more Protestant.
 
Besides, St. Paul’s discussion in 1 Cor 3:15, some also see an allusion to an after-death purgatorial process in these words of Jesus:
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. (Matthew 5:25-26)
Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you.” (John 13:10)
You see what you want; I see it for what it says and I understand what Jesus is saying since debtors prison was common in the day He spoke those words. See posts 13-15 for further insight and truth.

I don’t really have any desire to put anymore time into a subject concerning footnotes on a topic that doesn’t exist in God’s word - so I’ll leave the Catholic doctrine to the Catholic faithful and you can debate your hearts out. No disrespect, but this in no way honors God in my opinion.
 
Now I have a NAB revised version, and it was approved from Catholic Bishops, and is even used for the Mass readings we celebrate here in the USA. The problem is that the footnotes for 1 Cor 3:15 says it does not support purgatory. Why does this footnote say this when Catholic Apologists use this verse all the time to prove purgatory?

God Bless
Just to stick as closely to your question as I can offer, the passage does not directly support purgatory but I can agree that Catholic Apollogists could use the verse to that purpose inasmuch as it is part of the Catholic Doctrine on Purgatory that sufferings in this life can have purgative blessings for eternity. St.Paul may have well been thinking of his own life and conversion experience, his distinct but not schismatic apostleship and the trials by fire that he experienced. He may be the man he speaks of who’s work was burned up but was saved but only through fire.
 
I remember when I was a Southern Baptist, even though I rejected the doctrine of Purgatory I saw it written all over that passage in 1 Corinthians. I even remember the commentator J. Vernon McGee who was very non-catholic and quite Calvinist, I remember him even repeating another commentator and saying something like some Christians will barely make it to heaven but will smell like smoke when they get there. At that time it seemed to me like he had a touch of purgatory thought in him.

As far as that passage about paying the last penny, i never have thought that passage makes a strong arguement for Purgatory, even though some great commentators use that in their interpretation.

The doctrine of Purgatory is a developed doctrine, but so what, so is the Trinity and many others.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top