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CatholicMan1
Guest
Will Luke 1:28 have “Hail full of grace…”?
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BartholomewB
Guest
New Jerusalem Bible: “Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour!”
NABRE: “Hail, favored one!”
It looks as though “Full of grace” has fallen out of favor among publishers of Catholic Bibles.
NABRE: “Hail, favored one!”
It looks as though “Full of grace” has fallen out of favor among publishers of Catholic Bibles.
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CatholicMan1
Guest
I meant for the final translation around 2025.
po18guy
Well-known member
You would have to contact the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine - most likely the group charged with editing it. How does one do that? Good question.
I’ll take fire from the NAB cheer squad here, but even the KJV calls her “Most favored.” In the NAB, Saint Stephen is “filled with grace” in Acts 6:8, but Mary is only “favored one.”
False ecumenism? Last I heard, words have meaning.
I’ll take fire from the NAB cheer squad here, but even the KJV calls her “Most favored.” In the NAB, Saint Stephen is “filled with grace” in Acts 6:8, but Mary is only “favored one.”
False ecumenism? Last I heard, words have meaning.
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dscath
Guest
An old concern, to be sure…but if you understand Catholic theology, church teaching, and dogmatic statements, is it going to make you lose sleep or shatter your faith?
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CatholicMan1
Guest
No, but it should be translated as Hail, Full of Grace. That is the correct translation: “Chaire, Kecharetomene.”
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dscath
Guest
Fair enough…but if you know the “correct” translation, however it appears should not be a hill worth dying on.
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CatholicMan1
Guest
That particular verse needs to be translated the correct way, as do all. It is “you who have been perfected in grace.” It’s a past participle: Chaire Kecharetomene.
Hail, favored one is a watered down version. Why do we need a watered down version. For the Mother of God, it’s worth going even more over the hill for.
Hail, favored one is a watered down version. Why do we need a watered down version. For the Mother of God, it’s worth going even more over the hill for.
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Wesrock
Guest
The tense is also perfect, meaning it wasn’t only done in the past but also is ongoing.
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Dovekin
Guest
Actually, the Catholic Biblical Association has been responsible for translating the bible for the CCD and the US bishops. Their current project is described here. Felix Just, s.j. runs a website with scripture/lectionary information, so he might be the most accessible.
Full of grace is really not a good translation. It mistakes the verb given for the noun “grace.” St Stephen was filled with grace and the Greek says that. God gives all to Mary is closer to the angel’s greeting to her.
ralfyman
New member
It probably should if it is expected to be used for liturgy:
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Anesti33
Guest
It is important to remember the restraints on translators of Sacred Scripture in the modern world. Modern English translations are copyrighted, which means that when translating a Bible anew, the editors are not free to simply borrow from one another verbatim phrases, especially time-honored idiomatic ones. They are legally bound to make up something brand new and break the mold. Therefore, whatever Bible has been copyrighted with “Hail, full of grace!” is a done deal, and translators will be forever falling over themselves to reinvent the wheel.
It is unfortunate, but until Christian publishers adopt Creative Commons licensing for their documents, we are stuck with the ugly entanglements of so-called “intellectual property”.
It is unfortunate, but until Christian publishers adopt Creative Commons licensing for their documents, we are stuck with the ugly entanglements of so-called “intellectual property”.
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Thucydides
Guest
But your comment is behind the times. The Revised New Jerusalem Bible has “Rejoice full of grace.” Though if you wanted to be really cynical, you could argue that Fr. Henry Wansbrough may not have really believed in that translation, but just put it in there because he was angling to get the RNJB used in the English lectionary instead of the ESV-CE.
I have seen this claim multiple times, but I have never seen it substantiated. Can you provide me a link to a case where one copyright holder sued another for copyright infringement because the latter’s Bible translation had wording too similar to the former’s? Or a link to someone who actually worked on a modern Bible translation saying that avoiding copyright infringement was a concern while they were translating?
Most of the traditional wording in English Bibles is from translations like the KJV and ASV anyway, both of which are in the public domain now (at least outside the U.K.). And translations like the New Catholic Bible use all kinds of traditional phraseology and in general sound very similar to other translations, but I have heard not even a whisper of anyone actually getting sued. So I’m inclined to call this a myth.
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Xarto
Guest
If they get that wrong, what else is incorrect? Why waste money on a poor translation when there are many more out there to choose from.
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dscath
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“translation” has to do with taking scripture literally, rather than considering the spiritual sense…that is why the revelation of Jesus Christ was passed onto the Apostles after he left, and why the Magesterium was established by his Church.
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Thucydides
Guest
It would be a stretch to call “highly favored” an incorrect translation of kecharitomene, and every single Bible translation has at least a few verses that would make you roll your eyes if you looked hard enough.
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It is not incorrect. Not even the highly-vaunted “gratia plena” is a perfectly accurate translation because the Greek is so compact that it cannot be elegantly translated without losing something. If one wants to word-study this, the Greek is the word to study, not the English, and not the Latin. “Gratia plena”/“full of grace” and “highly favoured” are both best-effort translations. I err on “full of grace” myself, but do not reject in any way or form, “highly favoured”.Xarto:
It would be a stretch to call “highly favored” an incorrect translation of kecharitomene, and every single Bible translation has at least a few verses that would make you roll your eyes if you looked hard enough.
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Bithynian
Guest
There are interesting variations in the Vetus Latina (‘Old Latin’) manuscripts, that is, the pre-Vulgate Latin translations of Scripture. For example, the Codex Bezae translates κεχαριτωμενή kecharitomene with benedicta while the Codex Valerianus uses gratificata.
The use of gratificata highlights two idiosyncrasies about Latin and its effect on translating kecharitomene:
(1) The direct Latin equivalent of χαιρῶ chairo (the lexical form of *kecharitomene) is gratifico, which is used by the Clementine Vulgate to translate ἐχαρίτωσεν echaritosen (‘he [God] bestowed’) in Eph 1:6. Ordinarily, a direct translation of kecharitomene in Latin would be gratificata (‘she who has been highly favoured’) as used in the Codex Valerianus. But this is a grammatical error. Due to the verb’s confusing development in Classical Latin, gratifico has no form which has a passive meaning. That is to say, it is impossible to conjugate the verb to mean ‘she who has been highly favoured’ and gratificata actually means ‘she who highly favours [x person]’.
(2) The Vetus Latina text tradition was notorious for the shoddy quality of its translations (grammatical errors, weird phrasings) and this was a significant impetus for Jerome’s Vulgate.
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CatholicMan1
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Thanks. What are your views about The Jerusalem Bible in general and specifically, on St. Luke 1:28: “Rejoice, so highly favored” ?
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Agnus-Dei
Guest
New Catholic version, NT St. Joseph Edition has “Hail, full of grace”. The notes mention both translations as usable.
Dominus vobiscum
Dominus vobiscum
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