New Australian Law Requires Priests to Break Seal of Confession to Report Admissions of Child Abuse

[Alex337]

Alex337:

don’t think there’s anything wrong with folks disagreeing with each other;

Well, you’re not just disagreeing with individual posters.

You’re pushing something which is in direct contradiction to what the Church teaches.

You’re on a forum filled with devout orthodox faithful Catholics, and you’re trying to push something which is essentially heretical. You don’t see the futility in that?

I’m trying to understand peoples opinions. I’ve said that this is a thing I believe, not that everyone else should believe it also, and been happy to talk about differing viewpoints in an effort to understand them better

 

[mythbuster1]

That’s despair of God’s mercy.

 

[Alex337]

I’m not sure what you mean?

 

[Spyridon]

trying to understand peoples opinions

It’s not peoples opinions.

It’s infallible teaching from God himself.

I get the feeling you don’t quite grasp what Church teaching means to a Catholic.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

trying to understand peoples opinions

It’s not peoples opinions.

It’s infallible teaching from God himself.

I get the feeling you don’t quite grasp what Church teaching means to a Catholic.

Friend, there’s no need to assume ignorance.

I’m understanding peoples opinions on the teaching of God.

And this thread has helped me decide to convert away from Catholicism, it has been immensely helpful. I wouldn’t call that futile.

 

[yankeesouth]

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...k-seal-of-confession-23970?platform=hootsuite

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that “every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him,” due to the “delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons.”

Trying to force priests to break this seal would undermine the “sacred, sacramental and sacrosanct” rite of confession, Dunne said.

 

[HarryStotle]

hmikell7:

Alex337:

I still think any priest who turns an abuser in is making a very fine sacrifice.

Sacrificing vows made before God, being stripped of the priesthood, and being excommunicated from the Church. Yeah. Sounds like a fair trade off to me.

I’d do it. Or at least I hope I would have that courage. Putting a child before oneself is important.

From a temporal perspective, the tradeoff appears to be a rational one, assuming temporality is all there is.

Unfortunately for your perspective, reality is eternal, so the tradeoff would be more like putting one or several children’s temporal well-being ahead of the eternal well-being of hundreds or perhaps thousands of others who would begin to view their confession to God through a priest with much more hesitancy than people even do currently.

It isn’t about putting a child before oneself, it is about putting your short term-view of reality before God’s long-term plan.

Confession to a priest is difficult and humbling as it is for many individuals. To make it such that their words to a priest would no longer be held in strictest confidence would undermine the sacred and sacramental nature of reconciliation by making it subordinate to civil authority.

When the secular begins to intrude upon and impose its vision upon the sacred no real good can come of it, primarily because the secular does not have access to the ultimate reality that grounds existence. It only has access to its myopic interests. Interests which appear all-encompassing primarily because secular views have no sense of or understanding of ultimate reality but merely project those short term myopic interests onto reality.

My guess is that you don’t see the significance of the sacrament to begin with, so it is quite a trivial matter to be rid of it altogether. Isn’t that correct?

I would also guess that you view civil authority as having primacy over the sacred because, I would further assume, you think that the sacred is merely humans projecting merely human interests onto a religious canvas.

 

[HarryStotle]

From all I’ve seen murder has the risk of dooming two people to Hell, the person murdered and the murderer, potentially more. Rape and torture, especially when a priest could have stopped it, often drives people from the church and has the potential to doom souls also.

I think you are missing the point here. It isn’t committing the murder or rape, per se, that dooms someone to hell. It is that state of the person’s soul (separation from God who is Being Itself) that causes them to commit murder or rape – that is hell. A priest stopping a murder or rape from being committed isn’t sufficient to save anyone from hell, precisely because stopping the action doesn’t redeem or restore the person.

That is also why committing the murder or rape, itself, is not sufficient to condemn someone irrevocably to hell. At least, not if their soul, their integral state of being, can be redeemed and restored to God, which is why confession is available.

 

[yankeesouth]

And this thread has helped me decide to convert away from Catholicism,

It is sad but you aren’t the first and you won’t be the last…

Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?

After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him

This thread is a good example why the Church founded by Jesus Christ requires RCIA for most who are considering the Catholic Faith.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

And this thread has helped me decide to convert away from Catholicism

I spoke to you months ago about the fact that you not believing in what the Church teaches means you should maybe look into the Episcopal Church or somewhere else that aligns with what you believe.

You hurt yourself be staying in “communion” with a Church you disagree with on fundamental issues.

You hurt the Church by potentially influencing other people within her to dissent from her teachings.

Nobody wins when people in the Church are not sincere, faithful, obedient and orthodox.

I don’t think it right to drop a faith immediately as soon as one has questions of faith. It seems far better to me to do some research into both ones current faith and others, to pray on the matter, to speak with others and genuinely give ones original faith every chance. If one dropped the Church every time one had questions on faith I suspect numbers would plummet.

I have found a religion that seems right to me though, not Episcopal though I did check them out they didn’t quite resonate.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

hmikell7:

Alex337:

I still think any priest who turns an abuser in is making a very fine sacrifice.

Sacrificing vows made before God, being stripped of the priesthood, and being excommunicated from the Church. Yeah. Sounds like a fair trade off to me.

I’d do it. Or at least I hope I would have that courage. Putting a child before oneself is important.

From a temporal perspective, the tradeoff appears to be a rational one, assuming temporality is all there is.

Unfortunately for your perspective, reality is eternal, so the tradeoff would be more like putting one or several children’s temporal well-being ahead of the eternal well-being of hundreds or perhaps thousands of others who would begin to view their confession to God through a priest with much more hesitancy than people even do currently.

Even with a look to the eternal allowing people to come to such harm seems to do more harm than possible good. When a person is murdered they cannot be saved. When a person is raped or tortured they often turn away from faith, especially if its found that a priest could have saved them and chose not to. So many people turn away from faith when a church isn’t willing to stop harm when they could.

My guess is that you don’t see the significance of the sacrament to begin with, so it is quite a trivial matter to be rid of it altogether. Isn’t that correct?

No. I think confession is very important. I don’t think we should get rid of confession.

I would also guess that you view civil authority as having primacy over the sacred because, I would further assume, you think that the sacred is merely humans projecting merely human interests onto a religious canvas.

No. I think the two must work in unison for the good of all. And that the sacred is its own very real thing that we must all seek to understand.

 

[guanophore]

Not really as, again, the death penalty isn’t at play here.

It seems that you don’t understand “hypthetical”. None of it is “at play”. It is a thinking aid to the discussion.

That’s an assumption.

No. Experience and research.

I know? That’s what I’ve been saying?

Things that are not logical, and that are anti-Catholic.

Also, the job of the police is to prevent domestic violence.

False. This is a practical impossibility. The duty of the police is to protect and serve the public. They don’t police households.

Cool. I think I disagree with the Church on this.

You can disagree, as long as you give mental assent and obedience. Otherwise, you are a Protestant.

I cannot rectify not helping to save someone from rape, murder or torture as being godly.

Rectify it with what? What you are saying is that you cannot rectify your own opinion with the Church teaching.

You are under a false assumption that priest violating the seal for the purpose of reporting a person who may be “planning” to do any of these things can prevent it from happening.

Disagreeing is different to ignorance, friend.

It is, but your posts make it clear that you are inadequately catechized. You have admitted that you don’t even understand concupiscence, and that you don’t understand the Catholic obligations to follow the teachings of the Church. You have demonstrated that you don’t understand the seal of the confession.

 

[guanophore]

I also think we should phone the fire department if we see smoke rather than just praying. Reporting potential harm does a lot more than doing nothing.

Perhaps you don’t have very much experience with this? If you knew the stats that show the number of "reports’ compared to substantiated investigations, and missed abuse (including death) you might realize how futile reporting can be.

I know that; I just disagree with it.

You obviously don’t have much experience listening to felons make threats against people, either. The vast majority of these threats are not prosecuted, at least not in the US.

Nothing in life is guaranteed. And that’d okay, it’s still better to try.

I support your desire to protect the innocent. Knock yourself out trying! You might be better use in service to work with children who are at risk, rather than investing yourself in disagreement with the teachings of the church, which will not change.

I also think that even if it is a sin (and I do know that thinking it isn’t goes against Catholic teaching) that it is worth it to save another.

You are mistaken, Alex.

Perhaps you are just in need of some spiritual formation. [Have you considered taking some classes in basic and practical morality?](http://

We disagree I think both groups work everywhere.

You are mistaken, Alex.

Caesar has no place in the confection of Sacraments.

I also think that even if it is a sin (and I do know that thinking it isn’t goes against Catholic teaching) that it is worth it to save another.

)

Perhaps you are so intractable on this because you have some personal experience. If that is the case, you need healing.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with folks disagreeing with each other; it makes for a fine discussion.

It does make for a fine discussion, but disagreement with what the Church teaches will mean that you have lost Catholicity (if in fact you ever had it). Ignorance is the only thing that can excuse you.

I’m trying to understand peoples opinions.

Your posts don’t come across that way. On the contrary, when you are shown what the Church teaches, you recite your mantra of “I disagree”. There are no “differing viewpoints” except yours.

Friend, there’s no need to assume ignorance.

I agree. Your posts have demonstrated this quite clearly.

I’m understanding peoples opinions on the teaching of God.

No you are not. You are disagreeing with what God has revealed to the Church, not anyone’s personal opinions.

And this thread has helped me decide to convert away from Catholicism, it has been immensely helpful. I wouldn’t call that futile.

It is clear that you are not Catholic, and may never have been. But I am glad your rejection of the teachings of Christ have been made clear to you.

I have found a religion that seems right to me though, not Episcopal though I did check them out they didn’t quite resonate.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings…

 

[guanophore]

When a person is murdered they cannot be saved.

Where did you come by this idea?

Honestly, it is hard to believe you found any faith community that would espouse such a view!

When a person is raped or tortured they often turn away from faith, especially if its found that a priest could have saved them and chose not to. So many people turn away from faith when a church isn’t willing to stop harm when they could.

One has to wonder if you are speaking from personal experience. I will pray for you, Alex.

I think confession is very important. I don’t think we should get rid of confession.

You will not find an opportunity for it in whatever ecclesial community you have chosen.

No. I think the two must work in unison for the good of all.

The things of God are opposed to the things of this earth. Unity only occurs when Jesus is Lord, and secular authorities to not subscribe to this premise.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

Not really as, again, the death penalty isn’t at play here.

It seems that you don’t understand “hypthetical”. None of it is “at play”. It is a thinking aid to the discussion.

Yes, but as I explained earlier I’m against the death penalty so if we bring that into a hypothetical it raises other questions not previously related.

Alex337:

I know? That’s what I’ve been saying?

Things that are not logical, and that are anti-Catholic.

I disagree with the first but will accept the second.

Alex337:

Also, the job of the police is to prevent domestic violence.

False. This is a practical impossibility. The duty of the police is to protect and serve the public. They don’t police households.

Police do stop domestic violence. Domestic violence is against the law.

Alex337:

Cool. I think I disagree with the Church on this.

You can disagree, as long as you give mental assent and obedience. Otherwise, you are a Protestant.

Yup. Today is my first official day no longer being Catholic.

Alex337:

Disagreeing is different to ignorance, friend.

It is, but your posts make it clear that you are inadequately catechized. You have admitted that you don’t even understand concupiscence, and that you don’t understand the Catholic obligations to follow the teachings of the Church. You have demonstrated that you don’t understand the seal of the confession.

Actually I said that this forum had provided an alternate definition of it. That I don’t agree with certain obligations, not that I don’t understand it. And that I don’t believe the seal of confession should protect future acts, not that I don’t understand it.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, but as I explained earlier I’m against the death penalty so if we bring that into a hypothetical it raises other questions not previously related.

You seem very invested in dancing around this. That is your perogative.

Police do stop domestic violence. Domestic violence is against the law.

Police can intervene on a small percentage of domestic violence, yes, and of course it is against the law, but police cannot prevent it from happening. They can only respond and take action once it has occurred.

Today is my first official day no longer being Catholic.

guanophore:

Alex337:

I am not sure how such a thing becomes “official”, but it seems clear that your faith has not been Catholic for some time.

I don’t agree with certain obligations, not that I don’t understand it.

It seems as if you don’t understand it.

And that I don’t believe the seal of confession should protect future acts,

This is not logical. Confession is for the absolution of sins that have already been committed. It has no bearing on acts that have not yet occurred.

It is statements like this that make it clear you don’t understand.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

I also think we should phone the fire department if we see smoke rather than just praying. Reporting potential harm does a lot more than doing nothing.

Perhaps you don’t have very much experience with this? If you knew the stats that show the number of "reports’ compared to substantiated investigations, and missed abuse (including death) you might realize how futile reporting can be.

I hope you don’t mean to but you’re coming across as very patronising. If I believe someone is going to harm another I’ll report it.

Alex337:

I know that; I just disagree with it.

You obviously don’t have much experience listening to felons make threats against people, either. The vast majority of these threats are not prosecuted, at least not in the US.

Still no need to be condescending. One should still report things, if we don’t just because of some overwhelming pessimism then nothing gets done.

Alex337:

Nothing in life is guaranteed. And that’d okay, it’s still better to try.

I support your desire to protect the innocent. Knock yourself out trying! You might be better use in service to work with children who are at risk, rather than investing yourself in disagreement with the teachings of the church, which will not change.

Porque no los dos?

Alex337:

I also think that even if it is a sin (and I do know that thinking it isn’t goes against Catholic teaching) that it is worth it to save another.

You are mistaken, Alex.

Perhaps you are just in need of some spiritual formation. [Have you considered taking some classes in basic and practical morality?]

Wow, still condescending.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with folks disagreeing with each other; it makes for a fine discussion.

It does make for a fine discussion, but disagreement with what the Church teaches will mean that you have lost Catholicity (if in fact you ever had it). Ignorance is the only thing that can excuse you.

I did and I left it today

Alex337:

I’m trying to understand peoples opinions.

Your posts don’t come across that way. On the contrary, when you are shown what the Church teaches, you recite your mantra of “I disagree”. There are no “differing viewpoints” except yours.

Actually there seem to have been a couple on this thread and I’ve enjoyed speaking with folks.

Alex337:

Friend, there’s no need to assume ignorance.

I agree. Your posts have demonstrated this quite clearly.

No, it’s shown your assumptions time and again.

Alex337:

I’m understanding peoples opinions on the teaching of God.

No you are not. You are disagreeing with what God has revealed to the Church, not anyone’s personal opinions.

I’ve been largely speaking with people about this understanding on the teachings of God. It’s pretty simple.

Alex337:

And this thread has helped me decide to convert away from Catholicism, it has been immensely helpful. I wouldn’t call that futile.

It is clear that you are not Catholic, and may never have been. But I am glad your rejection of the teachings of Christ have been made clear to you.

Oh, I was. And I’m just converting away from Catholicism. Which I also don’t believe has the only way to Christ.
[/QUOTE]

 

[guanophore]

I hope you don’t mean to but you’re coming across as very patronising. If I believe someone is going to harm another I’ll report it.

Your statements seem to reflect a paucity of real life experience. I am not trying to be patronizing, just making an observation.

We should all be responsible for protecting those around us. Reporting is not always the most effective intervention, though.

One should still report things, if we don’t just because of some overwhelming pessimism then nothing gets done.

Some of us have experienced some overwhelming pessimism by reporting! You rightly observe that reporting often results in nothing getting done. What I am suggesting is that you do something more effective than “reporting”, which has limited effectiveness.

Wow, still condescending.

There is nothing condescending about encouraging spiritual formation! At least you would know what you are rejecting, rather than “disagree” with something other than what the Church teaches.

I did and I left it today

How can you tell? Is this also your opinion?

No, it’s shown your assumptions time and again.

I can only go on what I have read, and your posts reflect an ignorance of Catholic faith, and a rebellious heart against the teaching authority given by Christ to His Church.