New Bishop Williamson interview (Spiegel)

[latinmasslover]

I have no problem with brutal honesty, but I find none in this interview.

So, you do in fact have a problem with brutal honesty. He didn’t retract anything. So what? My point is that he’s being honest about it. He’s not claiming to retract anything, only that he’ll look into the issue further. According to many in the Church, especially in recent years, questioning is the only way to go. Why is so wrong for this bishop to do it? How many of yours statements would you take back just because someone told you to.

The Holocaust has no bearing on Catholic truth, and so I believe that the Bishop (God love him) should keep his opinion to himself. There’s no reason to cause problems over this issue. Abortion, euthanasia, animal cruelty, fornication…be persecuted for that, but not something that happened to Jews AND Christians 50+ years ago.

I truly have no idea what you are referring to by with you comments about offending Jews, or what you mean by “have it both ways.”

Was just referring to ambiguous language, which you already clarified.

 

[cathguy]

Why should they? He is quoting the Bible See 1 Thess 2:14-16. But be ware, in that Divinely inspirect quote, God tells us that the Jews - yes, the Jews - killed Christ. That statement of God offends many people today.

I am sorry, but this is a severe oversimplification.

Let us be serious and read the inspired text for what it says, through the light of the authority and tradition of the Catholic Church.

Starting at vs. 14. “For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that hey may be saved…”

Your exegesis, which blames today’s Jews for the killing of Christ, falls apart completely when we read the whole verse. If St. Paul was talking about the Jews of today, would he have followed his statement about the killing of Jesus with “and drove us out?” Do the Jews of today have time machines that they get into so they could then drive Paul out? How are the Jews today able to hinder Paul from speaking to the Gentiles?

Your, and apparently Williams, exegesis on this passage stands entirely on sand.

It is OUR SINS that killed Christ. We did it. He died for us.

Of course, if my explanation were true, it would be backed up by Catholic tradition. And guess what! It IS.

In my Douay Rheims Bible, with commentary by the Rev. George Leo Haydock, hardly a liberal ecumenist, published in the 1800s, Fr. Haydock has this to say:

“The Jews filled (past tense) up the measure of their iniquities by the opposition they every where manifested (past tense) to the religion of Chist. The earliest Fathers of the Church testify that they dispersed people into every nation to blaspheme the name of Christ; and hence sprang the evil fame the Christians bore among the pagans… It seems a foretelling of their entire destruction which happened not long after under Vespasian and Adrian.”

Did you catch that last sentence. The Jews of the time (past tense everywhere in the commentary) opposed the early Church and Christ. And their ENTIRE DESTRUCTION occurred under Vespasian and Adrian.

So, are we to put today’s Jews in a time machine to send them back to Vespasian and Adrian? And if they were ENTIRELY DESTROYED by Vespasian and Adrian, how, pray tell, can they still be here?

Even unmistakably solid traditional commentaries contradict what you are saying here.

The Navarre Bible commentary (given us by Opus Dei and ST Josemaria Escriva) says:

“St. Paul was a Jew and one who loved his people dearly. He is not codemning the Jewish people, but rather the opposition oif SOME Jews to the gospel. Perhaps they thought (past tense) they were doing right in objecting to Jesus Christ being presented as God. However, for an action to be morally good it is not enough for it to be inspired by a good intention; one must also take steps to seek the truth…” etc. etc.

You exegesis on this passage is not fitting with the larger Catholic tradition. It is not fitting with Vatican II either. It also doesn’t fit with the most respected Catholic commentaries.

 

[thistle]

I liked the interview. Thanks for posting this!

I think the Bishop tells it like it is and has risen above political correctness. The man is saying “show me I’m wrong and I’ll correct myself”, something everybody should say when faced with certain allegations.

It’s time the SSPX is given full communion with Rome. Let them celebrate the Tridentine Mass, that’s all they want.

Even a five year old knows the holocaust happened and that gas chambers were used to murder Jews and others in the concentration camps. What does he want? A live video of someone actually being gassed?
The evidence is overwhelming!

 

[Yours_Truly]

I am sorry, but this is a severe oversimplification.

Let us be serious and read the inspired text for what it says, through the light of the authority and tradition of the Catholic Church.

Starting at vs. 14. “For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that hey may be saved…”

Your exegesis, which blames today’s Jews for the killing of Christ, falls apart completely when we read the whole verse. If St. Paul was talking about the Jews of today…

Show me where I said the Jews who live today are guilty of killing Christ. That’s not what I said. All I said is that the Jews killed Christ, which is exactly what the Bible teaches.

Here’s the verse that you quoted:

“…the Jews, who killed both the lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God …”

So tell me, do you or do you not agree that “the Jews… killed… the Lord Jesus Christ and the prophets”.

If you agree with that, you agree with me. If you disagree with that, you disagree with the Bible.

 

[cathguy]

Show me where I said the Jews who live today are guilty of killing Christ. That’s not what I said. All I said is that the Jews killed Christ, which is exactly what the Bible teaches.

Here’s the verse that you quoted:

*"…the Jews, who killed *both the lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God …"

So tell me, do you or do you not agree that “the Jews… killed… the Lord Jesus Christ and the prophets”.

If you agree with that, you agree with me. If you disagree with that, you disagree with the Bible.

This post is disingenuous and a trap.

Those specific Jews in the first century who rejected Jesus caused His death. However, He came here to die for my sins. “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” Why focus on those human beings who actually did the deed, and NOT focus on MY guilt for it?

Paul wrote this letter when he wrote it. He was clearly, from the context, speaking of those Jews at the time. (just as both authoritative commentaries I quoted showed) It is YOU who are misusing the Bible here. No straw man at all.

One should NOT say the Jews killed Christ, because all Jews did not kill him, and as I have already proven, those Jews no longer exist (even according to traditional commentaries).

Or are you missing something?

 

[Seamus_L]

I don’t know that anyone actually believes that Jews of today are somehow physically responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. What I think the church has historically taught up to the 1960’s, is that they are the adherents of the religion of Phariseeism (Modern Judaism) that called for the crucifixion and has persecuted the church and are displeasing to God.

 

[Yours_Truly]

This post is disingenuous and a trap.

How is it a trap? I just asked if you believe what the Bible says. A simple question; unless, of course, you don’t believe what the Bible says. In that case the question becomes a trap.

Those specific Jews in the first century who rejected Jesus caused His death.

Did I anything different? All I said is what the Bible says.

"the Jews, who killed both the lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God "

It’s very clear. The Bible says that the Jews killed the prophets and Jesus. Do you believe that the Jews killed the prophets and Jesus or don’t you?

However, He came here to die for my sins. “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” Why focus on those human beings who actually did the deed, and NOT focus on MY guilt for it?

For now we are talking about “those who actually did it”. Remember, it was you who started this discussion by objecting to my quoting the Bible. You attacked me by setting up a straw man argument. When I replied by saying what I actually said, and asking if you agreed with me, you said I was laying a trap. But what about your straw man argument? What do you consider that?

So, the reason we are talking about “those who actually did it” is because you disagreed with what I wrote, when all I did was quote the Bible.

Paul wrote this letter when he wrote it. He was clearly, from the context, speaking of those Jews at the time.

And that’s who I was speaking about. I wasn’t saying that the Jews living today actually killed Christ.

One should NOT say the Jews killed Christ, because all Jews did not kill him, and as I have already proven, those Jews no longer exist (even according to traditional commentaries).

Or are you missing something?

I think so. I’m missing how you arrive at the conclusion that one who says the Jews killed Christ means that every Jew who ever lived is guilty of actually killing Christ. I never said any such thing. I simply said exactly what St. Paul did - ** that the Jews killed the Lord Jesus.** Do you agree that the Jews killed Christ or not?

And I find it interesting that you will say “we all killed Christ”, but will not say that the Jews killed Christ. I guess, in your opinion, the Jews are the only ones **not **guilty in the death of Christ.

 

[Timothysis]

Actually, if you want to be technically specific it was the Romans who physically killed Jesus. What does that tell us? Not much, really. As stated before, we all killed Jesus. Please don’t try to say that “they” killed Him more than we did. Keep in mind this prayer:

Pardon and mercy, O Eternal God, for it was my sins that nailed You to your cross.

 

[Seamus_L]

It was necessary for Jesus to die for the sins of mankind, but it was not all of mankind who verbally demanded that he be crucified. It was the unbelieving or perfidious Jews who said “His blood be upon us and our children”

 

[Wintersdemise]

Even a five year old knows the holocaust happened and that gas chambers were used to murder Jews and others in the concentration camps. What does he want? A live video of someone actually being gassed?
The evidence is overwhelming!

He’s not saying the holocaust did not happen, he’s saying the death toll of Jews wasn’t as high as six million. There’s tons of resources on the net that claim these things, and they provide alot of arguments for this.

I don’t buy it, but I can see how alot of conspircay theorists type people can get caught up into these ideas.

 

[pnewton]

Those specific Jews in the first century who rejected Jesus caused His death. However, He came here to die for my sins. “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” Why focus on those human beings who actually did the deed, and NOT focus on MY guilt for it?

Thank you for the post. Let me continue with a thought. lame is always easiest when it doesn’t fall back on us. Yet only the penitent can come to God for he takes responsibility for his own action. Anti-semitism is not Catholic teaching, even though we have always had our share of bigots, as have all.

It is sad to see that Bishop Williamson’s little hoopla might become a rallying point for a new group of bigots. These people are always in the dark corners of every population group.

 

[Yours_Truly]

Thank you for the post. Let me continue with a thought. lame is always easiest when it doesn’t fall back on us. Yet only the penitent can come to God for he takes responsibility for his own action. Anti-semitism is not Catholic teaching, even though we have always had our share of bigots, as have all.

It is sad to see that Bishop Williamson’s little hoopla might become a rallying point for a new group of bigots. These people are always in the dark corners of every population group.

Your exactly right. It’s amazing to see how these bigots use the words of Bishop Williamson to attack Traditional Catholics and the SSPX.

The “tolerant” will tolerate anything except the personal opinion of the good Bishop. Those who publicly deny Christ and promote the murder of babies in the womb are offending if someone denies certain aspects of the holocaust? Everything is upside down.

And what is so sad is that so-called Catholics side with the antichrist child killers in their attack on the good Bishop who merely gave his personal opinion. And what is even more strange, is that some of them believe that it is a God-given right to deny Christ, but it is forbidden to questions certain aspects of the holocaust. A God-given right to publicly deny Christ, but absolutely forbidden to question any aspect of the holocaust? Again, everything is completely upside down.

 

[latinmasslover]

Your exactly right. It’s amazing to see how these bigots use the words of Bishop Williamson to attack Traditional Catholics and the SSPX.

The “tolerant” will tolerate anything except the personal opinion of the good Bishop. Those who publicly deny Christ and promote the murder of babies in the womb are offending if someone denies certain aspects of the holocaust? Everything is upside down.

And what is so sad is that so-called Catholics side with the antichrist child killers in their attack on the good Bishop who merely gave his personal opinion. And what is even more strange, is that some of them believe that it is a God-given right to deny Christ, but it is forbidden to questions certain aspects of the holocaust. A God-given right to publicly deny Christ, but absolutely forbidden to question any aspect of the holocaust? Again, everything is completely upside down.

Amen brother!

 

[Seamus_L]

Amen !

 

[I_Believe]

Give him a red cap

 

[Matt33]

Spiegel and Drudge’s headline…Holocaust deneying Bishop digs in. “I will not travel to Auschwits”
Don’t really have a dog in the fight just wanted to point out the bias thatthe rest of the world is fed.

 

[Thomas62408]

And I find it interesting that you will say “we all killed Christ”, but will not say that the Jews killed Christ. I guess, in your opinion, the Jews are the only ones **not **guilty in the death of Christ.

You’re a darn good debater.

 

[pnewton]

Your exactly right. It’s amazing to see how these bigots use the words of Bishop Williamson to attack Traditional Catholics and the SSPX.

I have seen the Catholic Church as a whole attacked more than the SSPX. Most people do not even know what the SSPX is.

 

[ravenonthecross]

If he abjures his specious position on the Holocaust and is properly instructed: and thus enlighten so as to see to the true scope of the Holocaust; he’d be fine then. If that happens, I hope he gets made Cardinal! ------well, all Four FSSPX bishops being made cardinals would be great!

 

[Icarus210]

I had the privilige and blessing to be Confirmed by Bishop Williamson in Sydney. One very measured man, very intelligent and extraordinarily versed in truth and humility.