New Bob Woodward Book

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So you’re saying that James “Mad Dog” Mattis, a former Marine Corps Commandant, doesn’t have the courage to publicly stand up to Trump? That he’s scared of Trump? That he’d undermine the Constitution that he swore to uphold on numerous occasions? That he would violate his Oath of Service? Really?
If we take the position that the author of the op-ed piece did, that remaining in the Administration is the only way to prevent the President from causing further damage, then it really isn’t a matter of courage or cowardice, but rather a pretty blatantly-made utilitarian argument; “If I reveal myself to the world, I will be removed from my position and I will no longer be able to safeguard the country.”

That, of course, requires one to accept the author’s fundamental claim about what they’ve done and why they’ve done it. If one rejects the stated motive, then one can certainly read in all manner of cowardice and sabotage.

Ultimately I view it this way. What this person is doing, if indeed this person (and by extension other members of the Administration) are indeed thwarting the duly-elected constitutionally-mandated President, then they are at the very least extraordinarily disloyal, and more than likely crossing a line that seems awfully close to a coup d’etat. That they can declare that their actions as the only means to prevent catastrophe doesn’t really sufficiently justify what they are doing.

Worse, in my view, is that the op-ed piece does at least betray one motivation; that while they have to manage, deceive and thwart the President, that they also support some of things that he has done. Rather than following the constitutional remedies available to seek the removal of an unfit President, they still feel value in some of his actions, and pride in their part in the good the Administration has done. In other words, they, if you accept their argument at face value, are willing to put the nation in extreme jeopardy simply because sometimes the President does the right thing.

If a number of members of the Administration, and in particular the Cabinet itself, feel that the President through lack of fitness or through some utterly wayward or missing moral capacity, cannot fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the Presidency, then they can’t act like thieves and conspirators; stealing pieces of paper and ignoring his orders. They need to either invoke the 25th Amendment and, yes, gird themselves for the constitutional and political firestorm that will inevitably follow, or alternatively go to Congress and tell the body that has the constitutional and moral authority to remove a President that President Trump is unfit for office, and leave it Congress’s hands to either impeach and remove the President, or find some other means to constrain him.
 
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So you’re saying that James “Mad Dog” Mattis, a former Marine Corps Commandant, doesn’t have the courage to publicly stand up to Trump? That he’s scared of Trump? That he’d undermine the Constitution that he swore to uphold on numerous occasions? That he would violate his Oath of Service? Really?
I never suggested nor implied it was Mattis as I have no clue who has been involved. What I am saying is that some may feel a strong obligation towards protecting the country because they know Trump will fire them if he found out who’s been saying this.
 
They need to either invoke the 25th Amendment and, yes, gird themselves for the constitutional and political firestorm that will inevitably follow, or alternatively go to Congress and tell the body that has the constitutional and moral authority to remove a President that President Trump is unfit for office, and leave it Congress’s hands to either impeach and remove the President, or find some other means to constrain him.
Trouble is that Congress will do nothing along those lines because Trump is still popular amongst those who call themselves Republicans (about 80%).
 
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niceatheist:
They need to either invoke the 25th Amendment and, yes, gird themselves for the constitutional and political firestorm that will inevitably follow, or alternatively go to Congress and tell the body that has the constitutional and moral authority to remove a President that President Trump is unfit for office, and leave it Congress’s hands to either impeach and remove the President, or find some other means to constrain him.
Trouble is that Congress will do nothing along those lines because Trump is still popular amongst those who call themselves Republicans (about 80%).
That’s Congress’s problem. I fail to see how the actual answer to dealing with Trump is a semi-coup. Let Trump dump all over international agreements. Then Congress will have to deal with it. Having a bunch of saboteurs running around the White House, no matter how well intentioned, is the very anathema of responsible governance.
 
If we take the position that the author of the op-ed piece did, that remaining in the Administration is the only way to prevent the President from causing further damage, then it really isn’t a matter of courage or cowardice, but rather a pretty blatantly-made utilitarian argument; “If I reveal myself to the world, I will be removed from my position and I will no longer be able to safeguard the country.”
We’re talking about Woodward’s book in this thread not the anonymous OP-ED. In the case of the book, Woodward claimed that Chief of Staff Kelly and SECDEF made statements derogatory to the President that they deny saying, so either Woodward and his sources are lying, or Kelly and Mattis are lying. I have a hard time seeing either of them lying to protect their jobs or position.
Trouble is that Congress will do nothing along those lines because Trump is still popular amongst those who call themselves Republicans (about 80%).
Congress doensn’t invoke the 25th Amendment, the Cabinet does. If a majority of the Cabinet thinks the President is not competent to perform the duties of President, they can remove his authority and give it to the Vice President, making him the Acting President. Trump would still be President, but he would have no authority. He’d be like the Queen of England.
I never suggested nor implied it was Mattis as I have no clue who has been involved. What I am saying is that some may feel a strong obligation towards protecting the country because they know Trump will fire them if he found out who’s been saying this.
We’re talking about the book. In the book specific quotes derogatory to the President are attributed to both Chief of Staff Kelly and SECDEF Mattis, which they deny saying. Either Woodward and his sources are lying, or Mattis and/or Kelly are. I don’t see either of them having an incentive to lie. It’s not like they need a government job. Woodward, on the other hand, is trying to sell a book, mainly to people who hate Trump. He has a lot of incentive to make things up.
I fail to see how the actual answer to dealing with Trump is a semi-coup
Me neither.
Having a bunch of saboteurs running around the White House, no matter how well intentioned, is the very anathema of responsible governance.
I don’t see how establishing the precedent for this is in anybody who favors elected governments favor.
 
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Would you give me the page numbers or the chapter numbers where I can read these derogatory quotes?
specific quotes derogatory to the President are attributed to both Chief of Staff Kelly and SECDEF Mattis, which they deny saying
 
according to former Representative Joe Scarborough (R-- Fl), that since we have nuclear weapons why aren’t we using them? He has threatened war more than once.

He is dangerous.
What war did he start? As between him and Hillary, she’s 1-0 in starting wars. She started the war against Libya, which even Obama said was a mistake.

And why would you believe Scarborough (who says he’s no longer a Repub)? I’m sure Trump never said anything of the sort.
 
They need to either invoke the 25th Amendment and, yes, gird themselves for the constitutional and political firestorm that will inevitably follow, or alternatively go to Congress and tell the body that has the constitutional and moral authority to remove a President that President Trump is unfit for office,
Why? Because he’s rude sometimes? So was Harry Truman. Lyndon Johnson made Trump look like a choir boy when it came to rudeness and crudeness.

Does the appointment of Gorsuch offend you? If so, why?
Does dropping the HHS mandate against the Little Sisters of the Poor offend you? If so, why?
Does reinstating the Mexico City policy offend you? Why?
Does Kavanaugh offend you?
Does causing the stock market to go up 6,000 points in two years offend you?
Does increasing employement offend you?
Does his not starting a war like Hillary Clinton did, offend you?

What are the practical reasons you think he should be impeached for?
 
Any time someone leads off with “So you are saying…” It is a sure bet that is not what they are saying.
And this is the the essence of right wind talk radio - the pretense of saying what the opposition really means.
 
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Oh for goodness sake, Ridgerunner. Did you even bother to read my post? Go back, read the whole thing.
 
You asked who cares?

First day of sales 3/4 of a million copies sold out of 1 million printed.
Apparently, a whole lot of people
 
The entire impeachment movement was in the works ,along with the Russian collusion" scandal" before Trump was even elected.This was " plan B" in the unlikely event he should actually win.
His many positive accomplishments since taking office can be repeated until the cows come home.It won’t matter to those ,who for whatever reason cannot stomach the thought of an outsider non politician being the president.
 
OMG!You are kidding! No,that would be Obama.Did you listen to his tirade against Trump? Talk about projecting! Just yet another Alinsky tactic.
 
Either Woodward and his sources are lying, or Mattis and/or Kelly are. I don’t see either of them having an incentive to lie.
I already explained why such an incentive would be there in a previous post, and instead of being “traitorous” it could be viewed as being a “necessary evil”, especially as it’s also mentioned in the NYT piece but without names. In real life, these people may be heroes.
 
Ahhhh.

For me, rule of thumb is to go to the primary source first. I will have another free hour to read today so maybe I will get to that part.

But, wait a minute, I thought that President Trump is clear that the NYT is fake news that tells lies.
 
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