NEW explanation for why God killed babies in the OT (Heresy?)

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Most of you will know that in the OT, God orders the killing of babies. This seems to be at odds with what Jesus taught in the NT about how we should love our enemy.

Seeing how the Catholic faith states that God does not change, how come God appears to change His mind on how enemies should be dealt with? This issue bothered me (as I’m sure it has bothered some of you) and so I examined the issue more closely. After reading the bible from start to finish for the first time, I saw a simple solution for this.

Here it is…

As God cannot change His nature, there must be something different about the nature of human beings in the OT and the nature of human beings in the NT. And that the difference allows God to treat people in the OT different from people in the NT.

There Was No Afterlife For People In The OT

In the OT, I believe the people had no means of salvation. Jesus hadn’t come yet to pay their fine for sin and get them into heaven. This means they had no way to access Heaven. The best a person could hope for in the Old Testament was a good life on earth if they kept Gods commandments:

If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God …then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
DEUT 30:16

There was no offer of heaven on the table. If you ask a Jew to this day what happens to them when they die, they don’t know. They were never promised an afterlife.

Only Prophets Predestined By God In The OT Had Access To Heaven

No one in the Old Testament could access Heaven except for a small few (the prophets) predestined by God to foretell the coming of Christ one day who would save them. Isaiah for example says that the “spirit of the Lord” (i.e. the Holy Spirit) was given to him, so he must be saved:

The spirit of the Lord has been given to me, for the Lord has anointed me………. I exult for joy in the Lord, my soul rejoices in my God, for he has clothed me in the garments of salvation.
Isaiah 61: 1-10

The extreme joy Isaiah displays above is suggestive that only a small number of people in the OT were given the Holy Spirit like this, allowing them to be saved.

People In The OT Were A Dead People

The people of the OT were essentially a dead people with no hope of salvation. However God promised to put His spirit in them. He would remove their heart of stone and give them a real heart – a heart of flesh:

A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
EZEKIEL 36:26 (The words of God)

Jesus work on the cross gave mankind a heart of flesh. It was only when Jesus personally paid the fine for sin for each person, that mankind could then access Heaven.

CONTINUED BELOW
 
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

Jesus’ Death Is The Pivotal Point When Humans Finally Had Access To Heaven

In the OT, the Holy of Holies in the temple was unapproachable. At the moment of Jesus death on the cross, the moment the fine was paid, the curtain blocking access to the Holy of Holies was torn open giving mankind access to Heaven for the first time:

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom
MATTHEW 27:50 (The words of Matthew)

This is the defining moment separating the OT and the NT. Mankind was given an opportunity to leave behind his heart of stone to be replaced with a real heart – a heart of flesh.

Access To Heaven Is What Gives Humans Their Value

Access to heaven is what gave humankind its value. Without Heaven, a persons life on earth is meaningless. In the OT, people are as worthless as stardust. The people of the OT died. The people of the NT and after were capable of living forever:

Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
JOHN 6:49-50

The NT keeps emphasising that Jesus death for us was “victory over death”. People no longer die. We now have “eternal life” …suggesting that we didn’t have it before (in OT times).

The OT Demonstrates What An Atheists Worldview Really Looks Like

Atheists believe that humans are nothing but stardust. Despite holding this view, they then turn around and try to ascribe dignity and value to humans (ie they often quote the UN convention on human rights, usually in relation to abortion). This is a contradictory position. If humans are just stardust, they cannot have dignity and value.

While atheists can hold a contradictory position (ie fooling themselves and others), God cannot. God cannot lie. So, if people in the OT are worthless (ie they can’t enter heaven) then God is obliged to treat humans in the OT as though they are worthless. He can’t pretend that worthless human beings have value. This is how he can order the killing of babies in the OT because there is no hope for them. There cannot be any hope until Jesus comes.

If an atheist is abhorred at how God treats people in the OT - they should be! That’s what an atheistic world looks like where people have no value and are as worthless as stardust. In a world where Jesus has come to earth, paid everyones fine for sin and given them the ability to access Heaven – that world is going to look VERY different. Everyones value changes from worthless to a potential priceless child of God. Once, the inhabitants of the earth were no people, but now they are Gods people:

(God) called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.
1st PETER 2:9

That’s why God in the OT and the NT seem so different. It’s not God that’s changing. God stays the same. What changes is the value that each human being has. Before they were worthless. Now they are priceless.
 
Opinion only respectfully toward. Disagreeing with. His Spoke Word seems to speak other wise in what is written, does it not? Disagree those in OT did not have access to Heaven? God always provides a way, does he not all through out OT in many Biblical Verses He gives instructions how to>>Return to Him, repent repent?

Genesis 9:8-10 : All Life is Sacred" Up most important to Him, for we were created in His Image? Humanity reflex’s Him?
" therefore thus saith the Lord, If you return and then I will bring thee again that thou mayest stand before Me >>OT etc etc

There are 32 Bible Verses about returning to Him, he provides the way in OT and NT?
" return to Me and I Will return to you, repent" Just a few listed below.
Lamentations 3:40, Joel 2:13, Hosea 14:1, 6:1,12:6, Zechariah 1:3, Nehemiah 1:1, Amos 4:6, Job 22:23, Jeremiah 24:7, 3:12-22, Isaiah 59:20, Isaiah 10:21, 1 Samuel 15:24-25, Malachi 3:7, 1 Samuel 7:3, Jeremiah 15:19, Matthew 27:3.
Ezekiel 18:23 " I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Then there is a list of those in whom He called were found Righteous before the Lord in OT and NT also.
King David>> God tells us>> was a man after His own Heart??
Peace 🙂
 
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Opinion only respectfully. Does one think our Creator would transgress His own Laws? If he did so, would HE then not be liar? Commands all and gives us all >His Thou shall not and in His Spoken Word, tells us>>> All Life is Sacred in the Blood unto Him, so would He then go and destroy His >>the Sacred Life of His Creation? Commanding us not to do so, with All His Thou shall not>>>>then do so Himself and break His own Laws?

Our Creator, Our Heavenly Father, is the Fullness of Love, Truth, Joy, Peace, Merciful, Forgiving, Holy of all Holiness, All Good, HE is not half full of this or half full of the other is HE? But is He not the>> Fullness of Love and all one has mentioned above?

Thus He would not command His Creation to break His own Laws would HE, while breaking them Himself?? Be a Liar and a transgressor of His own Laws would he not be?

In the OT there are many gods and many lords ( Molech for one) is there not? Lord and God are Titles not names, HE gives us His Name, Jesus tells us>>I gave them your name, but they accepted another? Ask in My Name? He has a Name?

Jesus commands his listening audience to Search the Scriptures for a reason right?

We must all seek to know HIM and then we will know when it is HE speaking, would we not? All Life is Sacred in the blood, all Life is Sacred onto HIM and commanding us all not to destroy?? With also His own >Thou shall not?

Has HE not provided a Way of Return to HIM? OT, NT?

Has He not been, bestowing His Love, His Blessings, His Mercy, His Forgiveness, filling those HE chooses with the>>His Holy Spirit> since the beginning of time has he not? Many many Biblical Verses can be found where He has done so, in OT and NT?
He has always provided a Way of Return to HIM?

Just find it difficult to ever think our Heavenly Father would kill babies, his own creation stating in His Spoken Words, All Life is Sacred unto ME! He then would not be the fullness of all Holiness or the Fullness of all Love, Mercy, forgiveness. And in His spoken Word stating four times, repeating>>for us to hear>> for a reason >>Oh those lying scribes with their pens, must be a reason for that also right?
Confused sorry respectfully.
Peace
 
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Opinion only respectfully. Do not understand why one would even state one cannot be a heretic?? Fully believe our Heavenly Father is Love and the fullness of Love and do not believe God would kill babies, no disrespect. Jesus commands His listening audience to search the Scriptures, and Titus? > Study to show thyself approved"

All have been Free Will, giving us the right to Question, to Examine, but holds us also accountable and responsible for the choices we make and how it effects the Free Will and Freedom of others, does it not?

Jesus asked many questions to his own Temple Elders, Priests within His own Temple and toward the Highly learned men>> in Scriptures, did he not? And then there is Matthew 23 ??

Jesus Gospel was about defending the little children, the orphans? >>Jesus did he not state?>>>If anyone harms a little child, it would be better for them, to tie a rope around their necks, then to face judgement>> did he not?

What was Jesus Holy Scripture>> when He walked the earth? What was Jesus reading from? Preaching on? Continually referring back to? What was Jesus heavily quoting from?>> Within His Synagogues and to his listening audience who gathered in the open field around him, to hear Him Preach and Teach on the Spoken Word?

Jesus did he not also ask, many questions? Why?>> Jesus asked>>What did Isaiah say? What did King David mean? Jesus mentions, Job, Jonah, Isaiah, Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Abraham, King David, Jeremiah, Noah, etc etc? In Jesus was alive, walking the earth, there was no NT yet, it did not exist yet, not till decades later, is this not correct? Yet Jesus never speaks such our His and Our Heavenly Father or needs to give an explanation why God killed babies, but preaches the opposite? I and My Father are ONE.

Yet Jesus gives no explanation for why God killed babies, but just the opposite, any one who harms a little child, it would be better for them to put a rope around their necks then to face judgement?..
why one is confused does not flow with our Heavenly Father, who is all Holy the fullness of Love and tells us All Life is Sacred unto Him. Destroy not?

Why I find this also difficult to comprehend, there needs to be even a >>new >>explanation for why God killed babies in the…? Does not flow in context in who HE is and what HE commands us NOT to do>or with Jesus preaching on the little children>>and>> His Thou shall not or does it flow with His Spoken Word>All Life is Sacred unto the Lord.

Opinion only, Respectfully. All are given the Freedom of Thought>> not to offend, but to discuss, agree to disagree, to ask questions of concern>>>just confused>>with this title topic for discussion is all…

NT, Jesus commands his listening audience to search the Scriptures, makes us All responsible to do so>>then there is >> Titius>> “Study to show thy self approve” NT.
Respectfully, Peace 🙂
 
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God mellowed out as a result of His Incarnation because He experienced directly how difficult it is to be human.
 
There is a huge difference between knowing something in theory and knowing it in practice.
 
Different modes of knowing. Knowing in finite ways and knowing in an eternal way are not comparable.
To know a frog fully one must become a frog. God knows a frog fully without becoming a frog.
 
Completely wrong. God became man for us and nothing of God changed other than the nature of the human flesh of Jesus in so doing. This idea that God modified His understanding by The Incarnation is not Christian christology. Understanding that true God and true man is the nature of Christ is essential to understanding a vast amount of church teaching in the way The Spirit has guided us.
It is good that this false understanding arises within the Octave. What better time to come to know the nature of The Incarnation than at Christmas? Pope Benedict is the right choice to discover this and more on The Holy Family. I will pray that you cross this huge chasm of error and see much better the Holy Face of the infant Jesus. As gentile wisemen were guided to Him as he lay in a humble cradle all of mankind is open to knowing His place in our salvation.
 
The only thing that gives a person value is if they can access Heaven. Without Heaven, a persons life on earth is meaningless. In the OT, everything is meaningless as there is no access to Heaven.

The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity.
Ecclesiastes 1-2

In some translations it reads: “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher. “Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.” If God is good and creation is good, how can everything be considered meaningless? Unless everything in the OT is meaningless because man cannot access Heaven.

In the OT, human beings are almost as worthless as animals (almost except for the fact humans are made in Gods image). Neither humans nor animals can access heaven. In the same way that we treat animals as worthless (we slaughter them for food and for skins) because they have no way to enter heaven, God treats people in the OT the same way – worthless, as they had no way to enter heaven.

God is simply being honest in the OT in the way he treats humans (orders people to kill other people, including babies). Controversial I know, but it seems logical to me.
 
Imagine what would happen if we found out that animals could access heaven. All of a sudden we would stop slaughtering animals and treat them with care. We would see a massive turn around in how we treat animals, just like the massive turn around we see in the NT from the OT in how God treats humans.

This is why Jesus appears to “correct” what God had previously commanded in the OT.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 5: 43-44

In the OT you could hate your enemy as it made no difference and you could take out his eye. Now with the coming of Jesus’ kingdom on earth, all people (whether your friend or enemy) had the potential to enter heaven. As a result, people have to treat even their enemy with kindness as your enemy has the potential to mend their ways (if they are wronging you) and enter heaven. Everyone becomes priceless and as a result, we must treat everyone accordingly …even our enemies.
 
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Harry123 said:
The only thing that gives a person value is if they can access Heaven.
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Umm… no. What gives a person value is the fact that they are created “in the image and likeness of God” and have an eternal soul.
Without Heaven, a persons life on earth is meaningless.
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Hmm… not sure I totally agree… 🤷‍♂️
 
Gorgias said:
Umm… no. What gives a person value is the fact that they are created “in the image and likeness of God” and have an eternal soul.
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Jews would disagree with you about them having an eternal soul. They don’t seem to believe in an afterlife.

We have an eternal soul because we have been baptized. The Jews might not seeing how they haven’t been baptized.
 
Harry123 said:
Jews would disagree with you about them having an eternal soul.
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One does not have an eternal soul by virtue of having the opinion that they do. They have it by virtue of the fact that God gives them an eternal soul at conception. It’s a fact, not a matter of belief. 😉
We have an eternal soul because we have been baptized.
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No no no…! God creates an eternal soul for each person at their conception. Baptism has nothing to do with the creation of a soul!
 
Gorgias said:
No no no…! God creates an eternal soul for each person at their conception. Baptism has nothing to do with the creation of a soul!
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God gives every living creature the “breath of life” …but this is different from an eternal soul. Pope Francis made this distinction when he said animals had “souls” but this doesn’t mean they experience an afterlife. So every living creature has a soul, but only when one becomes baptized they get an “eternal soul”. Is that correct?
 
I agree with this. They could not hear Him all right in the OT. Jesus’s sacrifice was necessary, otherwise it simply wouldn’t have happened. He had to do it to be able to fully stop the unfair and unjust adversary.
 
Harry123 said:
So every living creature has a soul, but only when one becomes baptized they get an “eternal soul”. Is that correct?
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No, it is not.

From the catechism:
362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.
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(Incidentally, what you’re talking about regarding souls comes from (IIRC) medieval philosophical thought: it was Aquinas (again, IIRC) who posited that plants have ‘vegetative’ souls, animals have ‘vegetative’ and ‘sensitive’ powers of the soul, and humans have ‘vegetative’, ‘sensitive’, and ‘rational’ powers of the soul. Only humans have immortal souls, however.
 
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More awful theology, God is eternal, omnipotent and omniscient to name a few characteristics knowable even just by natural law. He did not gain knowledge by The Incarnation, the child Jesus grew.
He, the Lord, Jesus Christ is God and man; having two natures fully joined but not mixed. This is very basic to Christianity. Your perspective appears like Christianity and Confucianism joined and mixed up.
 
My Guardian Angel takes offense at your short answer. Perhaps you want to clarify your comment on who has the soul of a person?
 
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