New member, looking for discussion

[wasmit]

Hi,

I created an account here to get some viewpoints on god and the beliefs of others.

Some background about me: from ages 5 – 17 I went to christian(Roman catholic) schools, then to a secular university. I am in my mid 20’s. I believed in god, jesus, the bible, etc… until I was about 15 because authority figures (parents, teachers) told me that it was true. Around that time I looked more closely and critically at the religion and dismissed it as silly for many reasons. The reasons mainly centred around proof, evidence, feasibility, reality, etc…

I would describe myself as a 99% atheist; i.e. agnostic but leaning heavily towards atheism.

I am looking for clear, rational, arguments for the existence of a god, or the christian god, or to show that something in the bible is true. I have an open mind, and if you show something to be true, or almost certainly true, I must believe it.

I have recently read Aquinas’ 5 proofs, but counter-arguments have dismissed them.

I am coming here in good faith, hoping to be convinced or persuaded, looking at both sides of the argument.

I hope this is in the right section.

Thanks for your time.

 

[PhilVaz]

was << I am looking for clear, rational, arguments for the existence of a god, or the christian god, or to show that something in the bible is true. I have an open mind, and if you show something to be true, or almost certainly true, I must believe it. >>

No problem, what do you think of the William Lane Craig debates?

ALL the main Craig debates here on God and the Resurrection (mp3 audio)

Two books I would recommend right away if you don’t have them yet:

Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft/Tacelli (1994)
Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig (3rd edition, 2008)

Also for the most sophisticated defense of theism and Christianity today, you’ll want to save up or take out from the library:

The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology edited by Craig and Moreland (due May 2009)

Phil P

 

[wasmit]

I was hoping for a written discussion on the internet - either articles, other websites, blogs, or discussion in this thread.

That said, I will look up your books, and see if I can get them from my city’s library.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I am coming here in good faith, hoping to be convinced or persuaded, looking at both sides of the argument.

I hope this is in the right section.

Greetings, and welcome.

This is the right place, but your posting is much too broad to merit a specific response. If you would care to narrow-down your area of inquiry then I am sure you will find well-reasoned responses forthcoming.

This is a VERY active site and is approaching it’s five-million’th posting. It is highly possible (and probable) that any question you care to post has already been posted and answered (probably dozens of times - I’ve been around here a while and I tend to see the same questions hashed out - in the same way - over and over again). You could possibly save yourself some time by using the forum’s “search” function.

Also, you may wish to browse the Catholic Answers “library” section - this covers many of the essentials.

Cheers!

 

[fellowChristian]

wasmit–
Hi!

God planted a seed. That seed grew for 2000 years into a grand oak tree. It does not look like that seed but thats where it came from. Researching that tree and it’s roots will teach you about it’s Creator.

key words for internet research

**List of popes ** I used the dates on here to help me with the years. Sort of timeline.
newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Scripture Catholic you have to know the writings to get to know the author.
scripturecatholic.com/

King Herod people from the Bible
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Herod

Caesar Augustus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus

Protestant Reformation
history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=220450

Martin Luther
wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/LUTHER.HTM

pbs.org/empires/martinluther/about_driv.html

The reformers eldrbarry.net/heidel/heidel.htm

Roman Catacombs en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_catacombs

Early Church Fathers newadvent.org/fathers/

**King Henry VIII ** history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=211727

the earliest that you can find the name Catholic Church is 110 a.d. written by Saint Ignatius of Antioch an Early Church Father

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Some of these Early Church Fathers knew and were taught by the Apostles themselves! Ignatius was picked by Saint Peter as the second bishop to Antioch!

God Bless you on your journey.

 

[John1]

Hi,

I’m not nearly as well read as most the others here on this forum, but I will try and discuss your question.

I know this is going to sound very simplistic, but I guess one part of the reason that I believe is that I believe in an afterlife, or a Spiritual life, after this one. I realize that there are many religions in the world, some of them I know just a little about, but Christianity answers some of the basic questions for me, like how and why was everthing created and by who? What happens to me and my loved ones after we die? Who do I appeal to when I’m in need? Why would I ask for assistance from my God if he wouldn’t or couldn’t help me? How could I approach truely just and powerful God? Does this God even care about me? My faith in Jesus Christ answers those questions and many more for me and faith is believing in something that you can’t see.

Anyway, that’s probably not nearly as profound an answer that you are looking for, but I wanted to at least reply to your post.

 

[thistle]

Hi,

I created an account here to get some viewpoints on god and the beliefs of others.

Some background about me: from ages 5 – 17 I went to christian(Roman catholic) schools, then to a secular university. I am in my mid 20’s. I believed in god, jesus, the bible, etc… until I was about 15 because authority figures (parents, teachers) told me that it was true. Around that time I looked more closely and critically at the religion and dismissed it as silly for many reasons. The reasons mainly centred around proof, evidence, feasibility, reality, etc…

I would describe myself as a 99% atheist; i.e. agnostic but leaning heavily towards atheism.

I am looking for clear, rational, arguments for the existence of a god, or the christian god, or to show that something in the bible is true. I have an open mind, and if you show something to be true, or almost certainly true, I must believe it.

I have recently read Aquinas’ 5 proofs, but counter-arguments have dismissed them.

I am coming here in good faith, hoping to be convinced or persuaded, looking at both sides of the argument.

I hope this is in the right section.

Thanks for your time.

peterkreeft.com/topics/gods-existence.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/design.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/first-cause.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/conscience.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/history.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/desire.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/christ-divinity.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm

 

[onelife1]

davenevins.com/loveofgod

Peter Kreeft…Peter Kreeft…Peter Kreeft

 

[JRKH]

Hi,

I created an account here to get some viewpoints on god and the beliefs of others.

Welcome. This is a great Place to look.

Some background about me: from ages 5 – 17 I went to christian(Roman catholic) schools, then to a secular university. I am in my mid 20’s. I believed in god, jesus, the bible, etc… until I was about 15 because authority figures (parents, teachers) told me that it was true. Around that time I looked more closely and critically at the religion and dismissed it as silly for many reasons. The reasons mainly centred around proof, evidence, feasibility, reality, etc…

I highlighted the last portion in order to offer this for consideration.
When you say that you rejected religion for the above reasons, are you assuming that you have suffcient knowledge of all things, all realities, etc. that you are able to discern what is really silly?.
Let’s take feasability for an example. 200 years ago was space travel feasable? How about computers? How about supersonic aircraft? Were any of these things feasable in the minds of most people 200 years ago? Yet there were people who dreamed of these things and eventually achieved them. They believed something was feasable when majority opinion and evidence said it was not. Thus we can see that the feasability something depends upon the ability of a person to envision it. Most great inventions and scientific discoveries required a person who “KNEW” it existed “BEFORE” it was proved.

So when one considers the question of religion/faith/God strictly from the perspective of what they themselves are able understand from their own intellect, they are automatically placing themselves at a disadvantage and placing a block between themselves and the Graces that flow through even a small belief in God.

God’s Thoughts and existance is so far outside of our ability to fully understand that we are often at a loss to try to explain it.
Have you ever heard of the Story about St Augustine trying to understand the Trinity?

I would describe myself as a 99% atheist; i.e. agnostic but leaning heavily towards atheism.

Well we’ll see what we can do about that.

I am looking for clear, rational, arguments for the existence of a god, or the christian god, or to show that something in the bible is true. I have an open mind, and if you show something to be true, or almost certainly true, I must believe it.

This is a good sign. However, don’t be so critical as to dismiss something out of hand. Remember that God works in mysterious ways. It would be good if you could even say a simple prayer to open up the channel of Grace. Something along the lines of -
God, I know I am filled with doubts and have rejected much. If indeed you are truly present, Let my mind be open to your proofs. Help me to be truly open to your possibilities in my life.

Just a thought to help.

I have recently read Aquinas’ 5 proofs, but counter-arguments have dismissed them.

Perhaps some newer things would be better?

I am coming here in good faith, hoping to be convinced or persuaded, looking at both sides of the argument.

I hope this is in the right section.

Thanks for your time.

We’ll do our best.
Praise God for your open and curious heart.

Peace
James

 

[Kurusunami]

Guys, he’s not looking for religious resources…

Well, good, we can have some discussions. Just post in a thread, state your viewpoint on the discussed issue, and people will come flocking.

 

[Maranatha]

Hi wasmit and welcome.

I would suggest you try an experiment. In order to fully understand Christianity as an adult you have to live it. Most atheists and agnostics that I have encountered have not tried, as an adult, to understand and implement the Christian faith.

The experiment I suggest is to practice the faith for one month. To perform this experiment, as a lapsed Catholic, you should go to confession, receive the Eucharist at Mass daily, daily prayer and complete two books that explain the faith from an adult perspective.

Some good books were suggested above. You can start a separate thread to get additional suggested books to read.

Many links to Dr. Peter Kreeft’s web site were posted above and a book by the Boston U. professor was suggested. One more link from his site that details the experiment/challenge is his article on Joy.

I am praying for you. If you decide to take up the challenge, keep us posted on how it;s going.

cheers,

Maranatha!

 

[wasmit]

thanks for the replies, i’ll try to reply to all issues that have been brought up.

I highlighted the last portion in order to offer this for consideration.
When you say that you rejected religion for the above reasons, are you assuming that you have suffcient knowledge of all things, all realities, etc. that you are able to discern what is really silly?.
Let’s take feasability for an example. 200 years ago was space travel feasable? How about computers? How about supersonic aircraft? Were any of these things feasable in the minds of most people 200 years ago? Yet there were people who dreamed of these things and eventually achieved them. They believed something was feasable when majority opinion and evidence said it was not. Thus we can see that the feasability something depends upon the ability of a person to envision it. Most great inventions and scientific discoveries required a person who “KNEW” it existed “BEFORE” it was proved.

feasibility was probably the wrong word for me to use. More specifically, i dismissed religion when i was younger because it seemed extremely unlikely to be true,

-prayer cannot be shown to do anything.
-miracles cannot be shown to be true
-old testament god was an *******, e.g. genocide of many cities, condoning of slavery, killing of millions, and with abraham and his son:
god: hey abraham, kill your son
abraham: really?
god: yeah, go on, do it, it would please me
abraham: ok. almost kills son
god: lol just kidding.
-nothing can be shown to happen at eucharist
-etc.
with my school teachers saying “this whole religious package is true”, and me satisfying myself that large portions or it were not true, I dismissed the whole package.

So when one considers the question of religion/faith/God strictly from the perspective of what they themselves are able understand from their own intellect, they are automatically placing themselves at a disadvantage and placing a block between themselves and the Graces that flow through even a small belief in God.

what other perspective to we have to understand things than our own intellect? I know all my knowledge through my mind, my thoughts, and intellect.

and how can you have a “small belief in god”? either you do believe that a god exists, or you do not.

God’s Thoughts and existance is so far outside of our ability to fully understand that we are often at a loss to try to explain it.

Have you ever heard of the Story about St Augustine trying to understand the Trinity?

if god’s existence if so far outside out abiolity to understand it, how can you and many others be 100% certain that it does exist?

no.

Well we’ll see what we can do about that.

good! thankyou.

This is a good sign. However, don’t be so critical as to dismiss something out of hand. Remember that God works in mysterious ways. It would be good if you could even say a simple prayer to open up the channel of Grace. Something along the lines of -
God, I know I am filled with doubts and have rejected much. If indeed you are truly present, Let my mind be open to your proofs. Help me to be truly open to your possibilities in my life.

I have said many thousands of prayers in the past, and I have said that prayer jsut then. nothing has happened in my life so far that i can attribute to a god.

Perhaps some newer things would be better?

the age of an argument/discussion doesn’t matter to me.

Peace
James

 

[wasmit]

was << I am looking for clear, rational, arguments for the existence of a god, or the christian god, or to show that something in the bible is true. I have an open mind, and if you show something to be true, or almost certainly true, I must believe it. >>

No problem, what do you think of the William Lane Craig debates?

ALL the main Craig debates here on God and the Resurrection (mp3 audio)

Two books I would recommend right away if you don’t have them yet:

Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft/Tacelli (1994)
Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig (3rd edition, 2008)

Also for the most sophisticated defense of theism and Christianity today, you’ll want to save up or take out from the library:

The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology edited by Craig and Moreland (due May 2009)

Phil P

These books aren’t abailable in my city’s libraries.

 

[wasmit]

Greetings, and welcome.

This is the right place, but your posting is much too broad to merit a specific response. If you would care to narrow-down your area of inquiry then I am sure you will find well-reasoned responses forthcoming.

This is a VERY active site and is approaching it’s five-million’th posting. It is highly possible (and probable) that any question you care to post has already been posted and answered (probably dozens of times - I’ve been around here a while and I tend to see the same questions hashed out - in the same way - over and over again). You could possibly save yourself some time by using the forum’s “search” function.

Also, you may wish to browse the Catholic Answers “library” section - this covers many of the essentials.

Cheers!

I have been lurking here for a while before registering, I didn’t find anything specific to my queries.

more specifically, I am looking for clear, rational, persuasive, arguments for the existence of a god, or the christian god, or to show that something in the bible is true.

I read on a blog (jimmy akin) about jesus, and it had a clear explainiation that convinced me that there was a guy, jesus from nazereth who lived from about 0AD to 30AD. so that’s one thing from the bible that i am convinced is true.

i went to the library section but didn’y know where to go from there. can you be more specific?

 

[wasmit]

wasmit–
Hi!

God planted a seed. That seed grew for 2000 years into a grand oak tree. It does not look like that seed but thats where it came from. Researching that tree and it’s roots will teach you about it’s Creator.

key words for internet research

**List of popes ** I used the dates on here to help me with the years. Sort of timeline.
newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Scripture Catholic you have to know the writings to get to know the author.
scripturecatholic.com/

King Herod people from the Bible
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Herod

Caesar Augustus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus

Protestant Reformation
history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=220450

Martin Luther
wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/LUTHER.HTM

pbs.org/empires/martinluther/about_driv.html

The reformers eldrbarry.net/heidel/heidel.htm

Roman Catacombs en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_catacombs

Early Church Fathers newadvent.org/fathers/

**King Henry VIII ** history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=211727

the earliest that you can find the name Catholic Church is 110 a.d. written by Saint Ignatius of Antioch an Early Church Father

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Some of these Early Church Fathers knew and were taught by the Apostles themselves! Ignatius was picked by Saint Peter as the second bishop to Antioch!

God Bless you on your journey.

this doesn’t really explain anything that i am looking for, or convince me of anything.

 

[wasmit]

Hi,

I’m not nearly as well read as most the others here on this forum, but I will try and discuss your question.

I know this is going to sound very simplistic, but I guess one part of the reason that I believe is that I believe in an afterlife, or a Spiritual life, after this one.

why do you believe in an afterlife?

I realize that there are many religions in the world, some of them I know just a little about, but Christianity answers some of the basic questions for me, like how and why was everthing created and by who? What happens to me and my loved ones after we die? Who do I appeal to when I’m in need? Why would I ask for assistance from my God if he wouldn’t or couldn’t help me? How could I approach truely just and powerful God? Does this God even care about me? My faith in Jesus Christ answers those questions and many more for me and faith is believing in something that you can’t see.

how do you know the given answers are right?

Anyway, that’s probably not nearly as profound an answer that you are looking for, but I wanted to at least reply to your post.

thanks for your reply

 

[thistle]

this doesn’t really explain anything that i am looking for, or convince me of anything.

If you have read all the articles linked then what specifically is your objection to what they say. You vague statement doesn’t tell us why or have you not even bothered to read them?

 

[VociMike]

I have been lurking here for a while before registering, I didn’t find anything specific to my queries.

more specifically, I am looking for clear, rational, persuasive, arguments for the existence of a god, or the christian god, or to show that something in the bible is true.

I read on a blog (jimmy akin) about jesus, and it had a clear explainiation that convinced me that there was a guy, jesus from nazereth who lived from about 0AD to 30AD. so that’s one thing from the bible that i am convinced is true.

i went to the library section but didn’y know where to go from there. can you be more specific?

Well, for example, note that nobody in the past ever claimed to know where Jesus was buried, or have possession of his body. This in spite of the fact that it would have benefitted the Romans, and much more so the Jews, to demonstrate that the stories of Christ’s resurrection were untrue. So they would have had a strong incentive to find and display the body.

 

[JRKH]

thanks for the replies, i’ll try to reply to all issues that have been brought up.

feasibility was probably the wrong word for me to use. More specifically, i dismissed religion when i was younger because it seemed extremely unlikely to be true,

-prayer cannot be shown to do anything.
-miracles cannot be shown to be true
-old testament god was an *******, e.g. genocide of many cities, condoning of slavery, killing of millions, and with abraham and his son:
god: hey abraham, kill your son
abraham: really?
god: yeah, go on, do it, it would please me
abraham: ok. almost kills son
god: lol just kidding.
-nothing can be shown to happen at eucharist
-etc.
with my school teachers saying “this whole religious package is true”, and me satisfying myself that large portions or it were not true, I dismissed the whole package.

what other perspective to we have to understand things than our own intellect? I know all my knowledge through my mind, my thoughts, and intellect.

You are right, ni one sense we have only our own intellect to use.
However one of the things that we can understand is that we can’t understand everything. However, our inability to understand does doesn’t make something not exist.
As an example, It wasn’t that long ago that few could accept the idea that organisms too small to see were responsible for many diseases. Yet the Germs were there the whole time.
A better example would be in the area of physics, particularly quantum physics. There are many things that are surmised in these areas and even “shown” mathematically, yet there is no way to truly “show” them. As a matter of fact I heard one physics person say that if your talking about quantum Physiscs and don’t get a headache, your not doing it right.

and how can you have a “small belief in god”? either you do believe that a god exists, or you do not.

Maybe a bad choice of term.
What I mean is that, even if one only accepts that God exists but without any specific theology or terminology it can open up an avenue for grace to flow.

if god’s existence if so far outside out abiolity to understand it, how can you and many others be 100% certain that it does exist?

Because we see, not God, but God’s presence in everything around us.
It is entirely possible that God exists in a way that is different than how we visualize it. However God knows that we can only understand at a certain level and works with us on that level. It’s like a child who believes in Santa Claus. After a time, as the Child matures, he learns that the person Santa doesn’t exist. Is the child deprived of something, or is he called to a more profound understanding of the things represented by the “person” Santa? He is called to recognize the true good others to give, and to be called himself to join in this giving.
As we Grow, our understanding of God Grows. And God gives us more.

no.

The Story Goes that St Augustine was walking along the seashore contemplating the Trinity. He spied a small boy up the beach running between the water and a spot on the beach. Upon approaching He could see that the boy was running down to the water can scooping water into a small shell. He then ran up the beach and poured the water into the hole. St. Augustine asked what he was doing.
“I’m going to empty the sea into this hole”, came the response.
“You’ll never be able to do that”, replied the saint.
“Neither can you understand the sytery of the Trinity”, said the Boy, and then he disappeared.

The point is that there are some things we will just not be able to figure out. It is important that we, as God’s Children understand this.

I have said many thousands of prayers in the past, and I have said that prayer jsut then. nothing has happened in my life so far that i can attribute to a god.

And yet many millions of people will attest to just the opposite. Therefore the problem may not be with the prayers, but rather ones disposition toward God. God has given us free will. It is up to us how we use it. Do we turn to God or away? Do we Trust God or not?
Probably the most important prayer we can say is to pray for God’s will to be made manifest in our lives.
In my own life, I have seen both direct and indirect answers to prayers. I’ve also seen the answer be “No”. Right now I take care of my dear wife who has alzheimers disease. I pray for healing every day, but even more I pray for God’s grace and courage to do what needs to be done and to live in His light.
It is important that we properly orient our lives toard God, without whom we would not even exist.

Keep asking questions

Peace
James

 

[neophyte]

…I read on a blog (jimmy akin) about jesus, and it had a clear explainiation that convinced me that there was a guy, jesus from nazereth who lived from about 0AD to 30AD. so that’s one thing from the bible that i am convinced is true…

That’s a good place to start.

I’m an engineer, and I place a high value on evidence and reason. Might I suggest that you purchase a book entitled “Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Vol. 1”, but Josh McDowell. It’s a discussion of the rules of legal evidence and an evaluation of the evidence for the claims of Christianity in the light of those rules. It’s worth every penny of the cost. Be sure to read the introductions in the beginning, the explanation of the layout of the book is important.

The short version of the chain of reasoning that worked for me goes like this:1. When invoestigating the question of the existance of God, one cannot reject the reality of miracles out of hand without begging the question: the statement “miracles cannot happen” is equivalent to “there is no god”.
2. By definition, science cannot provide evidence for or against God’s existence.

1. Therefore, if God wanted us to know about Him, He’d have to leave us historical evidence.4. By the rules of historical evidence, the Biblical accounts of Jesus of Nazareth are found to be reliable records of historical events (read “Evidence that Demands a Verdict”).5. The historical evidence shows that Jesus DID die and come back to life. To reject this out of hand involves a violation of proposition #1 above.6. Jesus claimed to be God. The Apostles claimed that He was God. You can decide to believe it or not; if not then the only option is to believe that he was either a nutcase or very evil.7. The historical record of Jesus personality is inconsistent with that of an evil or insane person. The most logical conclusion is that He is God; again, to reject this out of hand is a violation of proposition #1.