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lao_tzu
Guest
Inconceivable! </princess bride>
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. </monty python>
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No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. </monty python>
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grannymh
Guest
True Catholic apologists should not be afraid of any type who lurk. Since you are concerned, I will pray for your friend at 2:00 AM Sunday. (We have a Chapel open for prayer 24/7. My scheduled hour is
2:00 AM on various days.)
Speaking of stars. They are absolutely beautiful at this time. One night, I walked backwards toward the end of the parking lot to get a better view. Here I am alone in a parking lot empty except for my car and the car of the 1:00 AM person at the Chapel. And I am standing near the road, leaning backward looking up.
It was worth the possible embarrassment if a police car would happen to stop…
Blessings,
granny
Please share these websites with family and friends.
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grannymh
Guest
Years ago, while walking along a narrow piece of land jutting into the waters of the Inside Passage, Alaska, I found, what seemed to me, the uncarved block. It was a rock, like a boulder, nearly waist high, smooth, strong, and powerful in itself. I had just finished reading Tao of Pooh and was adapting its thoughts to my surroundings. Though memory has faded, the book’s ideas were an interesting resource and the uncarved block an inspiration.
Thus, I am delighted that you saw the Catholic Catechism as an interesting resource. The Catechism tells us about God, humans, and the relationship between them. It is a way of grappling with the basic questions of life such as Who we are? and Where are we headed?
As for infallibility, essential doctrines, teachings, discussion points–they are all a part of the Catechism. It is the essential dogmas/doctrines that don’t change. For example: God exists as the Creator of the world. Human nature is soul/body, rational/corporeal, spirit/matter. The intellect and will are powers of the soul by which we can determine our life as living in the friendship of God. Or we can freely choose to walk away from God, i.e., we have both the option and the ability to sin. There is eternal life after earthy life.
While there are many CAF threads on dogmas/doctrines, etc., etc., the easiest way to spot them is by the language which leaves no wiggle room. For example: from paragraph 1213 “Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua)…” and the footnote gives the Council of Florence as the source when this was declared an essential belief. Obviously, this statement needs explanation and so the Catechism presents the Church’s teachings. The use of small print in certain passages indicates supplementary explanations intended to enrich presentations. Everything can be a discussion point.
A missal is a book containing the general prayers and Scripture readings for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and for special ceremonies. Scripture readings are different for each day. Some prayers (which can also change) are beautiful poetry used to describe beliefs and our own heart’s longing to be with God. As to who writes missals–somebody who knows what is happening.
As to who uses them–the priest and people.
Catholicism sees the unity and continuity of the Old and New Testaments. In a number of the Hebrew Scriptures we find a prefiguration of an event or of a teaching which occurs in the Gospels. Catholicism also finds great meaning in nature. The Catechism’s paragraph 1218 teaches: “Since the beginning of the world, water, so humble and wonderful a creature, has been the source of life and fruitfulness.” Thus, one can see different levels of meaning in the prayer I quoted in post 52. One meaning is the prefigurement of salvation by Baptism.
The Flood which was devastating on the natural level can be seen in relation to Baptism which washes away (devastates) the sins of man. Water which is the source of nature’s fruitfulness becomes the water in Baptism which also cleanses the soul bringing it into a new era of goodness. Out of reverence for God’s gift of water, the prayer is a form of blessing the water which will be used in the Sacrament of Baptism.
The tapestry of Catholicism includes with its truth, the beauty of nature, literature, art, poetry, and music.
Blessings,
granny
We are the created. God is our loving Creator.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Thank you, Granny!
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cassini
Guest
Lao, there are times when posters put up very interesting posts putting their view forward. Sometimes I do not always agree with everything, but they are interesting, and that one was interesting, a good post, great detail that was fascinating and believable. There are times when I read things ignoring points that are of little interest and taking in only what really does interest me.
Now like you I do not believe the Ark has been found. I think that subject is only asking for trouble for it places the onus on the Ark being found to give the story better credence. Maybe someday it will be found and all will agree it could only be the Ark. But until then, yes, beware Ark finding claims.
The divine types and symbols that the Ark gave rise to within the Catholic Church are the MOST interesting and make perfect sense. The Ark is the Church. Salvation of ALL mankind - which means it HAD to be a world wide flood to include ALL MANKIND - through one Ark, it being Christ and the entrance on its side the wound of Christ through which He shed His last drop of blood for our salvation. The cleansing of the ALL MANKIND by Water was of course the water of Baptism that would later become the way of salvation.
Finally note the passage I underlined for special attention was regarding Genesis, the book I follow.
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grannymh
Guest
This is true; but, this does not mean that there had to be a world wide flood so that all mankind could be saved.
Your enthusiasm is understandable but it is not in keeping with the reality and purpose of the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament promises, prophecies, and prepares for what is presented in the New Testament. The Old and New Testaments exist in unity. God’s works of the Old Covenant prefigures or points to what He accomplished in the fullness of time in the Gospels.
The Ark is a real boat on real water in the Old Testament. Pentecost, in the New Testament, is considered the birthday of the real Catholic Church. While both the boat and the Church can be viewed as saving people from disaster, in reality Church and Ark are not the same thing and thus this is not proper proof for any kind of weather event. The real flood in Noah’s time existed on its own.
The Catholic Church offers Salvation to all no matter when they live or where they live. The reality of Salvation is connected to the reality of Jesus Christ.
Blessings,
granny
Please share these websites with family and friends.
www.CatholicsComeHomeRockford.org
www.CatholicsComeHome.org
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twinc
Guest
These are all distortions of the original biblical account - God was the designer of the Ark,here as elsewhere a master designer as it seems stated by a master ship builder when studying the dimensions etc as clearly shown and stated in the Bible - twinc
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cassini
Guest
Granny, you know well my position. As far as I am concerned YES there HAD to be a UNIVERSAL FLOOD. If not the Old Testament is worthless.: First let me quote the Bible on this matter:
CH. 6
6 It repented him not literal of course, God does not repent] that he had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart, 7 He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts, from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them.
11 And the earth was corrupted before God, and was filled with iniquity. 12 And when God had seen that the earth was corrupted (for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth,) 13 He said to Noe: The end of all flesh is come before me, the earth is filled with iniquity through them, and I will destroy them with the earth.
Ch 7
4 For yet a while, and after seven days, I will rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will destroy every substance that I have made, from the face of the earth. 5 And Noe did all things which the Lord had commanded him.
21 And all flesh was destroyed that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beasts, and of all creeping things that creep upon the earth: and all men. 22 And all things wherein there is the breath of life on the earth, died. 23 And he destroyed all the substance that was upon the earth, from man even to beast, and the creeping things and fowls of the air: and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noe only remained, and they that were with him in the ark.
Ch. 8
16 Go out of the ark, thou and thy wife, thy sons, and the wives of thy sons with thee. 17 All living things that are with thee of all flesh, as well in fowls as in beasts, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, bring out with thee, and go ye upon the earth: increase and multiply upon it.
OK. Now thanks to the infamous Copernican heresy infiltrating the Church to the very top, the Scriptures were subjected to the dictates of scientific theory. Along came the uniformitarian theory andf even Noah’s flood HAD to be DOWNGRADED to a local flood to make way for the new scientific dogmas. Now reread the quotes above and try to make them comply with a bit of land containing only a sample of man and a sample of land animals. If anybody can do this and keep from laughing or more aptly CRYING, then go and do it.
SAMPLE OF THE NEW SCIENTIFIC HERMENEUTICS:
6 It repented him that he had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart, 7 He said: I will destroy SOME OF THEM, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts, from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Personally I will take God’s words LITERALLY, that he destroyed all but those on the ark, any other interpretation is the Testament according to scientific theory…
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PeterClatworthy
Guest
There was a Great Flood. Noah existed. He was a king. It is a matter of history. Please listen to this lecture it is time well spent.
goldenageproject.org.uk/video4.html
goldenageproject.org.uk/video4.html
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grannymh
Guest
Wish I could listen, but I don’t have sound. However, I accept Noah and the Flood regardless of its measurements, as being real.
Blessings,
granny
All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
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grannymh
Guest
Yes, I do understand your position. May I present mine? My position is that the worth of the Old Testament does not hang on humans agreeing about the actual size of a real flood.
Blessings,
granny
Please share these websites with family and friends.
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lao_tzu
Guest
Hello Peter,
I have to disagree. The video is highly speculative at best, notably confused on many features of the Sumerian pantheon, and remiss in featuring well known biblical parallels. For example, the Ninhursag featured in the beginning of the video is also known as Nin-ti, translatable as “she who makes live” or the mother of all living. But, in what could be the oldest pun ever transmitted, the Sumerian “ti” also means “rib,” making her the woman of the rib, with its obvious connection to the biblical Eve. Mixing in this kind of scholarship with true ANE scholarship cannot help but impair the presentation of the latter as counterfeit coins drive out the good out of circulation.
Here’s the closest thing we have to a historical record leading up to the Mesopotamian flood that spawned all of these ANE flood stories.
The Sumerian king list
(in the following translation, mss. are referred to by the sigla used by Vincente 1995; from those listed there, mss. Fi, Go, P6, and WB 62 were not used; if not specified by a note, numerical data come from ms. WB)
1-39. After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years. Alalĝar ruled for 36000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years. Then Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to Bad-tibira. In Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-ana ruled for 43200 years. En-men-gal-ana ruled for 28800 years. Dumuzid, the shepherd, ruled for 36000 years. 3 kings; they ruled for 108000 years. Then Bad-tibira fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Larag. In Larag, En-sipad-zid-ana ruled for 28800 years. 1 king; he ruled for 28800 years. Then Larag fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Zimbir. In Zimbir, En-men-dur-ana became king; he ruled for 21000 years. 1 king; he ruled for 21000 years. Then Zimbir fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Šuruppag. In Šuruppag, Ubara-Tutu became king; he ruled for 18600 years. 1 king; he ruled for 18600 years. In 5 cities 8 kings; they ruled for 241200 years. Then the flood swept over.
Note the impossibly inflated lifespans characteristic of oral traditions which are reiterated in the biblical accounts of the generations of Adam. Note also that Ziusudra (Akkadian: Atrahasis), the hero of the Sumerian flood tale, is included only in mss. WB 62 as the son of the last king of Shurrupak (aka Suruppag) before the flood, Ubara-Tutu. In another list, he is Ubara-Tutu’s grandson. We do have other evidence of their kinship, however, from the wisdom literature.
The instructions of Šuruppag
1-13. In those days, in those far remote days, in those nights, in those faraway nights, in those years, in those far remote years, at that time the wise one who knew how to speak in elaborate words lived in the Land; Šuruppag, the wise one, who knew how to speak with elaborate words lived in the Land. Šuruppag gave instructions to his son; Šuruppag, the son of Ubara-Tutu, gave instructions to his son Zi-ud-sura: My son, let me give you instructions: you should pay attention! Zi-ud-sura, let me speak a word to you: you should pay attention! Do not neglect my instructions! Do not transgress the words I speak! The instructions of an old man are precious; you should comply with them!
There’s very little we can confirm about these tales. None of the pre-deluge kings have been attested and few enough of those who followed before Sargon. Whatever this is, it’s not history. It’s interesting, and a fascinating field of study, but grand proclamations about the events, persons, and traditions are based on far too much inaccurate information to be taken seriously.
As ever, Jesse
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cassini
Guest
Oh Granny, the SIZE of the Flood is everything for it determines if ALL or only a FEW people on earth died. If only a few the whole Flood story is rediculous.
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grannymh
Guest
Please, a favor.
What is a reliable website where I can find maps of all these ancient periods, including the Mesopotamian flood? I am also looking for maps tracing the history of the Hebrew people before and after the tribes were split. From watching some TV specials on excavations in the area, it seems that names have changed which makes it difficult for me to follow. Is there some reliable web source which can tie history and legends together on a modern map? Does the British Museum have a site with this kind of ancient and modern information?
In other words, I am extremely curious and would appreciate any help. Thank you.
Blessings,
granny
The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
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PeterClatworthy
Guest
I did say that it was interesting and worth listening to. I did not say that it was my opinion. I do, however, believe that there is some truth in it, that the Great Flood did take place, and that Noah existed.
It was such a major event, that I also believe that it was related in some way to a much greater world disaster. The point that was made about the change in the Earth’s axis is IMHO credible, and most interesting.
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edwest2
Guest
The account of Noah given in the Bible must either be discredted or lessened in scope for one purpose and one purpose only: to place the Word of God in the province of men who do not believe it. First, symbolism or allegory. Yes, the Ark and the water do symbolize baptism but, God gave very specific instructions about building a specific type of boat and people, today, have built scale models based on those instructions. There is nothing symbolic about that. But that is ignored or downplayed or mixed with mytholgy.
“Genesis does not contain purified myths.” Pontifical Biblical Commission, 1909.
Peace,
Ed
“Genesis does not contain purified myths.” Pontifical Biblical Commission, 1909.
Peace,
Ed
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grace_singh
Guest
or, more likely, the Bible records the true, historical event, written down long after the actual flood had taken place, while the Babylonian narrative, also recorded after the flood, records man’s then-foggy memories of the same event we have clearly recorded in Genesis.
just because the Babylonian tablets may pre-date the later writing down of the story by Hebrew scholars does not mean that it is the “original”, so to speak, or that the narrative recorded in Genesis did not occur.
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StAnastasia
Guest
But the models don’t float, so it’s a moot point.
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peary1
Guest
The bible gives a different take on the matter, and God instructs Noah as to the exact specifications of the Ark. It’s not round, according to the Old Testament.
The Babylonian text has no bearing on what is in the OT with regard to Noah and the Ark.
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StAnastasia
Guest
What makes it “more likely”? Both read as mythic accounts.,
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