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StAnastasia
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I already tried to clarify that with Granny, and it didn’t work.
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juliamajor
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QUOTE=grannymh;6165530]Catholic teaching is that the Hebrew writers were inspired by God.
So what would be the reason for choosing pagan legends?
How could they choose pagan legends and still be faithful to God?
What does choosing pagan legends imply about pagan idols?
What is the rationale for saying that a pagan legend is part of God’s plan for salvation?
Of course, StAnastasia, I respect your right to your own personal worldview just as I respect other worldviews whether they are theist or non-theist. Consequently, I explored the link you provided.
According to the link, the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance is the independent group which maintains the website. Here is the first part of their statement of belief: “We are a multi-faith group. As of 2009-NOV, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters …” This is the last line from a paragraph about accuracy in the essay: “We do not regard any essay as fixed or complete.” This paragraph also encouraged readers to e-mail reports regarding errors.
In my humble opinion the essay on Noah looked like a personal summary using eight references. It did present opinions attributed to conservative Christians, liberal Christians, Agnostics and Atheists. It did not present evidence which precludes a flood in the area described by Genesis. Pagan legends should not be confused with scientific evidence. Both pagan legends can exist and the Flood can be a real event.
In my humble opinion, religious tolerance is a good thing. Learning about other people’s beliefs is a good thing. But this does not mean giving up one’s own faith in the process. Catholics must stand firm on what is taught on this link:
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Blessings,
granny
God is the only one who create something out of nothing.unfortunately(or fortunately) human society doesn’t work that way.We are by nature borrowers.we borrow language, culture(all aspects of it), rituals,myths from each other.so it was with the Israelites.They borrowed the names of the months from the Babylonians.Their language is from the Akkadians.Names and titles of God from the Canaanites.The shapes of the altars from the Canaanites.The kinds of offerings which parts were the choicest for God from the Egyptians and Canaanites and other pagans.The use of incense-the holy days like Passover and Unleavened Bread predate the Exodus and are so old as to be lost in the mists of the ancient near east.Much came from the pagans before them.You can’t remove it but adapting something for a “better” and more inspired use is not the same as adopting pagan traits.
So what would be the reason for choosing pagan legends?
How could they choose pagan legends and still be faithful to God?
What does choosing pagan legends imply about pagan idols?
What is the rationale for saying that a pagan legend is part of God’s plan for salvation?
Of course, StAnastasia, I respect your right to your own personal worldview just as I respect other worldviews whether they are theist or non-theist. Consequently, I explored the link you provided.
According to the link, the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance is the independent group which maintains the website. Here is the first part of their statement of belief: “We are a multi-faith group. As of 2009-NOV, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters …” This is the last line from a paragraph about accuracy in the essay: “We do not regard any essay as fixed or complete.” This paragraph also encouraged readers to e-mail reports regarding errors.
In my humble opinion the essay on Noah looked like a personal summary using eight references. It did present opinions attributed to conservative Christians, liberal Christians, Agnostics and Atheists. It did not present evidence which precludes a flood in the area described by Genesis. Pagan legends should not be confused with scientific evidence. Both pagan legends can exist and the Flood can be a real event.
In my humble opinion, religious tolerance is a good thing. Learning about other people’s beliefs is a good thing. But this does not mean giving up one’s own faith in the process. Catholics must stand firm on what is taught on this link:
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Blessings,
granny
God is the only one who create something out of nothing.unfortunately(or fortunately) human society doesn’t work that way.We are by nature borrowers.we borrow language, culture(all aspects of it), rituals,myths from each other.so it was with the Israelites.They borrowed the names of the months from the Babylonians.Their language is from the Akkadians.Names and titles of God from the Canaanites.The shapes of the altars from the Canaanites.The kinds of offerings which parts were the choicest for God from the Egyptians and Canaanites and other pagans.The use of incense-the holy days like Passover and Unleavened Bread predate the Exodus and are so old as to be lost in the mists of the ancient near east.Much came from the pagans before them.You can’t remove it but adapting something for a “better” and more inspired use is not the same as adopting pagan traits.
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mfj
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If the bible is truth, then any borrowing of religous rituals, beliefs, etc. would have been borrowed from christianity. (yes, I know when Christ(a myth to the wise) was born of flesh and so christianity) The worship of The True God came even before our beginnings with the angelic host. Then came Adam and Eve who were on earth before any of these other tribes of men.(the figuritive man and the real persons) Then people started digressing from truth but keeping some of it. So it only looks borrowed if you view the Jewish nation as the first worshipers of Gd. It seems as though the Isrealites were only setting the record straight not borrowing.
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juliamajor
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Christianity , my dear came later- and we borrowed from the Jews.
Please don’t get smarmy with me -and don’t but your words in my mouth.
Unlike what you’d like to think most Jews acknowledged these adaptations.
I recommend you use the Jewish Encyclopedia
And the JPS Torah Commentary-also Nahum Sarna, & Jacob Milgrom(both very important jewish scholars) if you actually care about knowing the antecedents and how they used them and yes,adapted them for better use. I also don’t think the angels borrowed anything from anybody-since no one was around.Neither did they compile records of their worship nor keep oral tradition.
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StAnastasia
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Julia, I agree. But keeping one’s own faith does not mean flushing science down the toilet, as a doggedly literal adherence to the story of Noah’s Flood demands. Not only is an insistence on a literal worldwide deluge and the descent of all humans from Noah theological nonsense, but it flatly contradicts cosmology, physics, chemistry, geology, hydrology, planetary astronomy, biogeograpy, genetics, and a host of other sciences. Of course, Catholics are free to reject all these sciences in favor of a misguided literal interpretation of the Noah’s Flood story, but in so doing they bid farewell to the community of educated men and women.
StAnastasia
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PeterClatworthy
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What breathless arrogance. So you don’t believe that a flood of massive proportions would have followed a shift in the Earth’s axis?
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grannymh
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As far as I know, in mainstream Catholicism there is no “doggedly literal adherence to the story of Noah’s Flood demands.” as you imply.
Floods can take place anywhere. Boats can be made to float on water. Neither “flatly contradicts cosmology, physics, chemistry, geology, hydrology, planetary astronomy, biogeograpy, genetics, and a host of other sciences.”
Perhaps the “community of educated men and women” which you refer to, should check what mainstream Catholicism teaches.
(Quoted sections are from post 105)
Blessings,
granny
These two websites are from a program which is being run in a number of Catholic Dioceses. Suggestion: pass the two links to someone who is on the fence about coming back to the Catholic Church or who is thinking about joining. The second link gives general information.
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StAnastasia
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No. It’s complete and utter scientific hogwash.
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StAnastasia
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Granny, it would really help if you read my post more carefully. I never suggested that local floods or the building of boats contradict science. I said that “cosmology, physics, chemistry, geology, hydrology, planetary astronomy, biogeograpy, genetics, and a host of other sciences” are contradicted by an insistence on a global flood and the descent of all humans from Noah.
No matter what YECs and “flood geologists” say, you simply cannot maintain a literal interpretation of this great theological story and maintain the sciences in question, any more than you could hold to both modern science and the creation of the world by Ymir and his giant cow. It’s not possible. If you doubt me, take your case to any university in the country that has science departments, and argue your case before the scientists. I guarantee you that even Catholic scientists will agree with my position.
If you find a “flood geology” department in a Catholic university – even in Rome – I will stand corrected!
StAnastasia
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grannymh
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So why are you concerned about a literal global flood and the descent of all humans from Noah when it is perfectly possible that a local area flood was the event?
As far as I know, mainstream Catholicism does not insist on a literal global flood and the descent of all humans from Noah. Catholic teaching is that all human beings are descendents from two sole parents at the origin of the fully complete human being.
If you can cite the Catholic doctrine that teaches that all human beings descended from Noah, please do so.
*Catechism of the Catholic Church *www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Blessings,
granny
The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
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PeterClatworthy
Guest
What is the scientific basis for your assertion?
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StAnastasia
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Granny, if you are a literalist about the Adam and Eve story, why are you not equally a literalist about the Noah story in Genesis 6-9?
Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
An interpreter would have a hard time with a local flood if she takes Genesis 6:7 literally: “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air…”
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
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For starters, there is absolutely zero scientific evidence that:
(1) The entire earth was once covered with water fifteen cubits above the summit of Mt. Everest (29,035 feet)
(2) All humans are descended from Noah and his wife
(3) All animal and plant species are descended from those brought on the ark
(4) An ark of said dimensions could hold thirty million species for a year
(5) An ark of said dimensions was seaworthy
(6) Sixty million animals could have migrated to the Ancient Near East and then back to their respective continents
We are free to hold any beliefs we like, including that in Ymir and his giant cow. However, it is not reasonable to expect science to support every belief.
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grannymh
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Please read
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Link: www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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PeterClatworthy
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For starters nobody has suggested your entire list full of its graphic detail was the consequence of an axis shift. This thread is trying to find out the basis of the story of Noah’s Ark.
Let me begin like this. What did the person writing that part of the Bible regard as being “the world”? What did he, she, or they know about the number of species in the world, even that part of the world that he, she, or they considered to be “the world”?
We haven’t got to the science yet, have we? We are talking about human perceptions about scientific phenomena.
As you know, if you are indeed a scientist, the axis of the Earth does shift periodically, and it does, as a matter of scientific fact, result in changes in the climate. Sometimes these changes are quite major.
So, rather than being so dismissive, perhaps we may start from there, and see where it leads us?
What do you summise the person writing that part of the Bible regarded as being “the earth” or “the world”?
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grannymh
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Good point. The Saint Joseph Edition, The New American Bible has a full page drawing of the “World of the Hebrews” at the beginning of Genesis.
Blessings,
granny
All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Peter, I am a theologian, not a scientist. I work with scientists from many different scientific disciplines, as I teach in an interdisciplinary masters program.
If you understand the Noachian flood story as the theological recension by the Hebrew scribes of a Babylonian story that may have echoed an historic flood in the Ancient Near East, that seems eminently credible to me. If you understand the Noachian flood story as the “flood geologists do” – namely, as a global flood that covered every region of the earth with water above the tops of all the mountains, and that involved taking on board the ark the ancestors of every living terrestrial species on earth – that is not scientifically credible. What’s more, it misses the theological point of the story, which is testimony to God’s saving power and the covenant with what would become the “chosen people.”
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
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grannymh
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You can use this handy link to the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Be sure to scroll down to find the search box for the Catechism.
Use the search box and put in Noah, next flood, and then God.
Blessings,
granny
These two websites are from a program which is being run in a number of Catholic Dioceses. Suggestion: pass the two links to someone who is on the fence about coming back to the Catholic Church or who is thinking about joining. The second link gives general information.
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StAnastasia
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