New prayer for conversion of the Jews in the Extraordinary Form

[irenaeus1]

By the way, I’m Jewish but I don’t find the conversion prayer insulting - amusing but not insulting.

Why amusing?

 

[irenaeus1]

By the way, I’m Jewish but I don’t find the conversion prayer insulting - amusing but not insulting.

To pray for everyone’s conversion EXCEPT the Jews would be anti-Semitic. Even St. Paul stated, “My heart’s desire and prayer to God on their [the Jews] behalf is that they be saved” Rom 10:1). And I’m sure there were Jews then who criticized Paul for what he said. So it’s not surprising to see some Jews upset with Pope Benedict.

 

[Kaninchen]

To pray for everyone’s conversion EXCEPT the Jews would be anti-Semitic. Even St. Paul stated, “My heart’s desire and prayer to God on their [the Jews] behalf is that they be saved” Rom 10:1). And I’m sure there were Jews then who criticized Paul for what he said. So it’s not surprising to see some Jews upset with Pope Benedict.

And you ask why I think it’s amusing?

It only means anything if you believe any of it - what is scripture to you is, after all, fiction to me.

 

[Dauphin]

Why amusing?

She finds it rewarding to mock the faith of others. It’s a typical attribute of those who have no faith.

 

[Kaninchen]

She finds it rewarding to mock the faith of others. It’s a typical attribute of those who have no faith.

So, if Muslims said prayers for the conversion of Catholics on the basis of something in the Qur’an and a Catholic found it amusing rather than annoying, they’d have no faith.

Riiight.

 

[Dauphin]

So, if Muslims said prayers for the conversion of Catholics on the basis of something in the Qur’an and a Catholic found it amusing rather than annoying, they’d have no faith.

Riiight.

I’m afraid you misread my statement. I said that attribute is typical of those who have no faith, not that all those who possess it are without faith. This is because people of faith generally understand the deep attachment people often have to their form of prayer, and refrain from mocking any form of prayer out of respect - a sort of basic decency.

If a practicing Catholic finds Muslims praying while bowing deeply or orthodox Jews praying while bobbing their heads towards the western wall amusing, that would be a measure of their immaturity, and their lack of empathy.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m afraid you misread my statement. I said that attribute is typical of those who have no faith, not that all those who possess it are without faith. This is because people of faith generally understand the deep attachment people often have to their form of prayer, and refrain from mocking any form of prayer out of respect - a sort of basic decency.

I’ve mocked nobody (well, perhaps you), I just said that the thought of Catholics wasting their time praying to convert me was amusing rather than annoying.

If a practicing Catholic finds Muslims praying while bowing deeply or orthodox Jews praying while bobbing their heads towards the western wall amusing, that would be a measure of their immaturity, and their lack of empathy.

Hardly the same thing, is it?

I do find reflexive foot-stamping funny, I have to say.

 

[irenaeus1]

It only means anything if you believe any of it - what is scripture to you is, after all, fiction to me.

Not unlike the response of many Jews during the time of the apostles… which is exactly why we pray for your hearts to be enlightened (another way of stating that the unbelieving Jews be delivered from darkness or that the veil be removed from their hearts).

Do you believe in the Old Testament? Are you an orthodox Jew?

 

[Kaninchen]

Not unlike the response of many Jews during the time of the apostles… which is exactly why we pray for your hearts to be enlightened (another way of stating that the unbelieving Jews be delivered from darkness or that the veil be removed from their hearts).

I promise not to pray for you to be converted to Buddhism or something.

Do you believe in the Old Testament? Are you an orthodox Jew?

I’m (we’re) pretty observant.

 

[Valke2]

To pray for everyone’s conversion EXCEPT the Jews would be anti-Semitic. Even St. Paul stated, “My heart’s desire and prayer to God on their [the Jews] behalf is that they be saved” Rom 10:1). And I’m sure there were Jews then who criticized Paul for what he said. So it’s not surprising to see some Jews upset with Pope Benedict.

But you are avoiding the issue that Jews are singled out in the prayer. You can easily pray for the conversion of all non-Catholics without making a specific reference to Jews. I understand the sincerity and love that many have when defending this prayer. Unfortunately, given the history of Jews, the Church, and Conversion, we are going to remain forever suspect at any actions that are taken by the Church in this arena.

It is not, I believe, a matter of oversensitive jews trying to control Church doctrine. It is a matter of an injured people sensing trouble in the wind.

A man hits his wife for 15 years. After being arrested several times he finally goes into thearpy and becomes a changed man. For the next 2 years he trips overhimself beng kind, loving and gentle to his wife. Last week he starts criticizing her cooking and complaining that she didn’t put gas in the car. He doesn’t shout or do anything else. There are two questions we have to ask.

1. Is the wife overreacting if she starts fearing for safety.
2. No matter what his intentions, does the man still have the right to criticize his wife’s cooking or the way she handles household chores?

 

[japhy]

But you are avoiding the issue that Jews are singled out in the prayer. You can easily pray for the conversion of all non-Catholics without making a specific reference to Jews.

We do pray for non-Catholic Christians, as well as non-Jewish non-Christians. We pray specifically for Jews because of their intimate bond with God. We pray specifically for non-Catholics because of their belief in Jesus Christ. We pray for “pagans” (or whatever they’re called nowadays) because the glory of the One True God can be seen in the world around them. Different intentions for different groups of people.

It is wrong for the Church not to pray for Jews (and everyone else) to see the light of Jesus Christ.

 

[Charlesartiste]

She finds it rewarding to mock the faith of others. It’s a typical attribute of those who have no faith.

Lets stand back and take a breath as people are wont to say when things reach a sensitvie state of affairs.

She is only making a statement of her faith and understanding.
I do not think it is mockery. We pray for the Jews because they are our brothers in a special way. Just because we do does not put an obligation on anyone else. That is why I state here that the prayer for conversion is addressed to the Jews at this time of the liturgical year because of that special relationship. Our faith came from a practicing Jew after all. Our Church was established and formed by that Jew. Thus we have a very personal reason to pray for our brothers and sisters.

Let us not react as some of our Jewish brethren have to the recent alterations of the original prayers. There is a lesson in this too. If our leaders are moved by every wind that blows against the reed then it is only the reed that gets bruised and broken in the end. The prayers have been a part of the liturgical life of the Roman Church for ages. Tradition if you will! Does not mean we cannot change/amend/retranslate items that one might write with a smal ‘t’ tradition. But everything must be done in moderation and with great care.

I have jewish blood but have never been a part of the Jewish culture or religion except for visiting a great grandmother when I was very young. She prayed for us all the time.

She did not mock us when she would state my grandchildren should be jews. Smile.

Pax Vobiscum Ya’ll

 

[Dauphin]

But you are avoiding the issue that Jews are singled out in the prayer. You can easily pray for the conversion of all non-Catholics without making a specific reference to Jews. I understand the sincerity and love that many have when defending this prayer. Unfortunately, given the history of Jews, the Church, and Conversion, we are going to remain forever suspect at any actions that are taken by the Church in this arena.

The prayer that immediately precedes this one is a prayer for the conversion of heretics. It’s equally forceful.

It is not, I believe, a matter of oversensitive jews trying to control Church doctrine. It is a matter of an injured people sensing trouble in the wind.

You don’t think Abraham Foxman is trying to control church doctrine? When he says that Catholics should just admit that Jews are saved by their works, in direct contradiction of the Bible, he’s not asking for a fundamental change in doctrine?

The Catholic Church has defined dogmatically that the Jewish covenant has ceased after its fulfillment in Christ, and that no Jew can have salvation without acknowledging Christ and entering His Church. This cannot change.

The Church has every right to express its faith, and it is the height of arrogance to expect it to change or suppress it.

A man hits his wife for 15 years. After being arrested several times he finally goes into thearpy and becomes a changed man. For the next 2 years he trips overhimself beng kind, loving and gentle to his wife. Last week he starts criticizing her cooking and complaining that she didn’t put gas in the car. He doesn’t shout or do anything else. There are two questions we have to ask.

1. Is the wife overreacting if she starts fearing for safety.
2. No matter what his intentions, does the man still have the right to criticize his wife’s cooking or the way she handles household chores?

This isn’t about something as trivial as household chores; it’s about salvation. Would it be charitable for Catholics to hope that Jews don’t acknowledge Christ, and are condemned?

 

[Dauphin]

We pray for the Jews because they are our brothers in a special way.

Don’t try to gloss it over. We pray for the Jews because they’re going to hell.

If you don’t like that, you don’t like the dogma of the Church.

 

[Dale_M]

Don’t try to gloss it over. We pray for the Jews because they’re going to hell. .

Dauphin, could you provide a link from the Catechism or Church document which supports that claim?

Section 847 of the Catechism suggests otherwise. While discussing the doctrine of “Outside the Church there is no salavation” it notes

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

 

[Valke2]

Don’t try to gloss it over. We pray for the Jews because they’re going to hell.

If you don’t like that, you don’t like the dogma of the Church.

Perhaps it woud be possible to add a line specificlly praying for Dauphin.

 

[irenaeus1]

I promise not to pray for you to be converted to Buddhism or something.

apples and oranges… I would not expect you to pray for me to convert to a religion of which is not worthy of your own belief. Let’s be consistent in our arguments, shall we?

 

[Valke2]

apples and oranges… I would not expect you to pray for me to convert to a religion of which is not worthy of your own belief. Let’s be consistent in our arguments, shall we?

Do you think Jews pray for others to convert to Judaism?

 

[irenaeus1]

But you are avoiding the issue that Jews are singled out in the prayer. You can easily pray for the conversion of all non-Catholics without making a specific reference to Jews.

No we can’t. You don’t lump Jews, non-Catholic Christians, pagans, and atheists all together.

With regard to the prayer for the Jews, they are not being singled out as if targeted. The General Intercessions are for various intentions: for the Pope, for the Church in general, for those preparing for baptism, for the unity of all Christians, for the Jews, for those who do not believe in Christ, for those who do not believe in God. The only reason that the Jews are called out separately from others who do not believe in Christ is because typically those who do not believe in Christ yet believe in some sort of deity are considered pagans. And we, as Christians, do not simply lump Jews in with pagans. In fact, I would guess that Jews would be offended if we put them in that category.

 

[irenaeus1]

Do you think Jews pray for others to convert to Judaism?

I guess that would depend what they saw their mission to be. I would expect them to pray for my conversion if they thought not of themselves as an exclusive ‘club’ comprising only of those of the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. If they understood their mission to be a light to the nations to show us Gentiles who the one true God was, then I would be insulted if they didn’t pray for me.

Now as Christians, we believe that we are the spiritual seed of Abraham, the wild olive shoot grafted onto the root of the natural olive tree, the fulfillment and transformation of the Abrahamic covenant; then of course, we have to pray for the natural branches that have been cut off through unbelief, so that they not remain in their unbelief and are grafted in again.