J
japhy
Guest
I guess they don’t. What is the attitude of Jews towards other religions? Are they “true” (true enough to secure salvation)? What is the orthodox Jewish eschatalogical belief? What happens when we die? Etc.
- Status
R
RomanCrusader
Guest
As usual, Valke plays the “Jewish victim” card, implying that, due to past persecutions, Jews somehow deserve special priviliges.
D
Dauphin
Guest
That teaching is entirely unrelated. By “Jew”, I mean someone who explicitly rejects the teaching of the Church and adheres to the Jewish religion, not someone who is unaware of Christ and His Church and strives to follow God’s will. Here is the definition you wanted:
*“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (*Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
V
Valke2
Guest
THen you should be insulted. We don’t pray for the conversions of Gentiles. That is not how we view being a light unto all nations. Among other reasons, we believe it is easier for a gentile to be righteous than it is for a jew, as a Jew must follow more commandments.
V
Valke2
Guest
any religion is “true enough” to secure a share in the world to come, according to Judaism, on condition that those following it obey what has become to be known as the Noahide laws, which essentially embrace the ethical requirements of the Torah, and require the establishment of a just legal system.
D
Dale_M
Guest
Dauphin, it is good to study the history of the Church and in doing so we see the roots, trunk and older growth of the branches of what we believe. But a medieval bull may no longer be a good formulation of that belief.
Faith is gift from God. Perhaps you grew up with your faith and never noticed its lack, but I grew up without faith and only came to Christianity as an adult. I could reason myself into the Church - it is a very rational religion. But I couldn’t reason myself into faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the second Person of the Trinity. I could affirm the belief as an act of will, but I could not believe it in my heart without willing that belief. My faith in Christ was a grace bestowed by God, just as my belief in God the Father was also a gift which I could never achieve on my own. I could be only open to the possibility and allow God to take things from there.
Just because Jews (and Muslims, and members of any other religion) have heard of Christ doesn’t mean they have been given faith in Christ and his Church. Superficial knowledge and actual faith are very different things.
C
chosen_people
Guest
It is not that we Jews do not understand the difficulty for many gentiles to grasp the oneness of God and to imagine God divorced of human form. This is a gradual intellectual process that will come in time. It is not that we are worried that we are going to Hell especially since the Christian concept of Hell does not exist. It is not that we feel any need or want to tell the gentile what to pray or what to believe. In Judaism it is easier for the gentile than for the Jew to get to the world to come as the gentile has only to follow the seven Noahide commandments ( a somewhat more charitable attitude than the one you espoused towards Jews in the name of Catholicism). Rather our objections deal only with the **disdain **such prayers can and do engender towards Jews and Judaism. This is our business as our history has only so well taught us.
D
Dauphin
Guest
That’s all well and good, but there’s still no salvation outside the Church. Invincible ignorance is the only condition that the Church has offered which eliminates culpability for not entering Christ’s church. I’ll stick with what the Church has revealed.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Yes but I don’t want you to convert to Judaism - no point and Buddhism seems pretty harmless.
D
Dale_M
Guest
"Dauphin:
And you think contentedly belonging to a different religion doesn’t constitute invincible ignorance?
Great, me too! At least we can agree on this.
C
Charlesartiste
Guest
nysun.com/article/71132?page_no=1
A good article to read from the NY Sun bty Hillel Halkin.
A good article to read from the NY Sun bty Hillel Halkin.
C
Caveman
Guest
From the New Jersey Jewish News; (emphasis mine)
‘Prayer for Conversion’ reinstated by Pope
Jewish leaders fear a step backward in interfaith relations
by Robert Wiener
NJJN Staff Writer
February 21, 2008
Leaders of interfaith dialogue are expressing concern that a Good Friday prayer newly revised by Pope Benedict XVI could set back cordial relations between Catholics and Jews. The Latin-language “Prayer for Conversion of the Jews” urges Catholics to “pray for the Jews. May the Lord our God illuminate their hearts so that they may recognize Jesus Christ as savior of all men.” It also asks God to “kindly allow that, as all peoples enter into your Church, all of Israel may be saved.”
To Allyson Gall, executive director of the American Jewish Committee’s Metro New Jersey Area, the prayer is “**a step backward. **This is something that was written in the pope’s own hand. It was not written by an aide. He made a conscious decision he wants the wording this way. That is regrettable.”
“This is not what we had hoped for,” said Father Lawrence Frizzell, director of the Institute of Judaeo-Christian Studies at Seton Hall University in South Orange. “There has been considerable discussion among those of us involved in Jewish-Christian relations,” said Frizzell, who has worked with Gall on interfaith projects. “I don’t know how to interpret this in terms of the larger picture. I would say in terms of people involved in Jewish-Christian relations, this is a disappointment. But I don’t want to say this is a harbinger of things to come.”
‘Prayer for Conversion’ reinstated by Pope
Jewish leaders fear a step backward in interfaith relations
by Robert Wiener
NJJN Staff Writer
February 21, 2008
Leaders of interfaith dialogue are expressing concern that a Good Friday prayer newly revised by Pope Benedict XVI could set back cordial relations between Catholics and Jews. The Latin-language “Prayer for Conversion of the Jews” urges Catholics to “pray for the Jews. May the Lord our God illuminate their hearts so that they may recognize Jesus Christ as savior of all men.” It also asks God to “kindly allow that, as all peoples enter into your Church, all of Israel may be saved.”
To Allyson Gall, executive director of the American Jewish Committee’s Metro New Jersey Area, the prayer is “**a step backward. **This is something that was written in the pope’s own hand. It was not written by an aide. He made a conscious decision he wants the wording this way. That is regrettable.”
“This is not what we had hoped for,” said Father Lawrence Frizzell, director of the Institute of Judaeo-Christian Studies at Seton Hall University in South Orange. “There has been considerable discussion among those of us involved in Jewish-Christian relations,” said Frizzell, who has worked with Gall on interfaith projects. “I don’t know how to interpret this in terms of the larger picture. I would say in terms of people involved in Jewish-Christian relations, this is a disappointment. But I don’t want to say this is a harbinger of things to come.”
N
nsper7
Guest
I am not sure why people are so disturbed that the Pope would pray that people would turn to Christ and be Saved. Isn’t that the goal of Christianity (Roman Catholic and Non-RC): to bring people to a Saving faith in Christ?
It seems this article is indicative of a problem occurring throughout Christendom (and I admit parts of the Anglican Communion and the Episcopal Church, where I shall soon swim the Thames, are at the forefornt of this problem) where Christians are forgetting that the goal of so-called interfaith dialogue should be to better expose people to Christ and dispel any incorrect views held by non-Christians.
Although I may disagree with the Pope’s idea of what it means to become Christian (I am sure His Holiness means he wants people to become Roman Catholic), I certainly applaud the spirit of his words and prayer. What greater love can we as Christians (regardless of our denomination) have than to hope and pray that others would turn to Christ and be Saved by God’s mercy?
It seems this article is indicative of a problem occurring throughout Christendom (and I admit parts of the Anglican Communion and the Episcopal Church, where I shall soon swim the Thames, are at the forefornt of this problem) where Christians are forgetting that the goal of so-called interfaith dialogue should be to better expose people to Christ and dispel any incorrect views held by non-Christians.
Although I may disagree with the Pope’s idea of what it means to become Christian (I am sure His Holiness means he wants people to become Roman Catholic), I certainly applaud the spirit of his words and prayer. What greater love can we as Christians (regardless of our denomination) have than to hope and pray that others would turn to Christ and be Saved by God’s mercy?
J
japhy
Guest
Well, His Holiness prays for the unity of all Christians under the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. But that doesn’t mean “Roman Catholic”, since the Roman Rite is only one of many. There are plenty of other Western rites (such as the Ambrosian Catholics), and plenty of Eastern rites (such as the Byzantine Catholics). There is even an “Anglican use” of the Roman Rite, which is the liturgical rite used by many Anglicans who have converted to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church; and the Traditional Anglican Communion is looking to restore itself and its members to full communion with Rome, and thus becoming Catholic.
J
johnstown_johnn
Guest
**Hi, Chosen. You say, “…This is our business as our history has only so well taught us.”
That begs the question: Is praying for Jews in an uplifting beeseching to God a THREAT? It almost sounds like you see this as some sort of anti-Jewish undercurrent. If that is even slightly so…it is way off the mark.
In so far as it is the business of Jews does this imply that we do not have a nexus (Christian/Jew)? It is obvious that we do…Jesus was a Jew; He came to redeem the world STARTING with the Jews. It is from the Jews that we gentiles are also freed from death.
Jesus, as a man, allows for mankind to approach God more intimately and to know Him and experience His goodness. Jesus allows us to draw close to God…a kind of “transformer” so to speak.
This reply is done in charity and hopefully, you will detect it as such.**
J
jimmy
Guest
No it doesn’t. Invinsible ignorance has nothing to do with whether you are content where you are. That contentness with a false religion could be your fault. But some of them might be invincibly ignorant.
J
jimmy
Guest
If Jews feel threatened that we actually believe they need to convert then that is their problem. We are not going to treat our faith as if it is one of many different options. If Christianity is true then Judaism as it is is false and so is Islam. It is simple logic.
- Status