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7_Sorrows
Guest
yes, the words “unfit for ministry” are pretty clear. it goes to show us how serious this is. 
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yes, the words “unfit for ministry” are pretty clear. it goes to show us how serious this is.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
One thought about obedience. I think people bring this up because, quite frankly, the (apparent) disobedience is far more upsetting to us than the allegations of sexual impropriety or drug abuse, if that makes any sense. I’m not sure it does, but when I first heard about the drug and sex charges, I didn’t have too much of a reaction to that. But when this happened, I was very upset.Benedict made it very clear that once one promises obedience to the superior, one surrenders one’s will, one’s wishes, one’s goals, one’s thoughts, one’s gifts and all that one has or is. It is all handed over to Christ who speaks through the superior. Benedict does not get into the nonsense that 20th century Catholics get into, “What if the superior is a sinner?” or “What if the superior is wrong?” Benedict made it clear that the efficacy of the vow of obedience lays not in the virtue of the superior or in his wisdom. That and $1.50 will get you a ride on a city bus. The efficacy of obedience lays in the act of submission on the part of the person who obeys. When we obey a superior, we give up a lot and we do so out of love, not because the superior is wise or right. The superior can be a fool and totally wrong. The virtue is found in our willingness to submit to one who is a fool and may be wrong, because we love Jesus Christ so much that we want to do exactly as he did when he was on trial before Pilate. Obedience is an act of love. Love always has a price.
Someone posted that Bl. John Paul II ordered Father to go out and preach; therefore the superior cannot trump the pope’s orders. There are two errors here. One is canonical and the other is historical. Let’s first deal with the canonical issue. A religious superior can trump a pope, if the pope’s mandate is not given under obedience. If the pope says to a newly ordained priest, “I want you to go out to evangelize the world,” and the religious superior find that this command is not in the best interest of the individual and of his community, he can rescind that request. It only becomes an order binding under obedience when the pope puts it in writing and gives it to the major superior. The pope would have to say to the major superior that he wants this man for this purpose.
I can also understand the superior of the SOLT. He has to protect the good name of his society. It is one thing for a member to leave and another for a member to get everyone angry at them.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I said this before, I just remember last fall when my previous parish priest was asked to transfer to a different parish, after being with us for a very long time. He did not want to go. He cried when he announced he was leaving. Several parishoners asked him, “Why didn’t you say no?” The priest answered, “Because 33 years ago, the bishop who ordained me asked me if I would obey him and his successors, and I said yes.”
He also said, “It’s like St. Paul said. We die, and we rise.”
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valient_Lucy
Guest
I agree. Now, we may or may not be convinced of the charges, but so what? It’s not up to us. It’s up to his superiors. They feel he is unfit for ministry.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
“Pride makes everyone into ‘God,’ and you have no objective truth. The antidote is humility. If God humbled himself, who are we not to humble ourselves? Remember that humility leads to obedience, which leads to life. Pride leads to disobedience and death.”
– John Corapi, 1 May 2010, St. Louis
– John Corapi, 1 May 2010, St. Louis
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jwinch2
Guest
oops…
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joanofarc2008
Guest
Watch what you say.
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whm
Guest
I think his quote was very good.
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DavidPalm
Guest
This is excellent. I really think that those who have to interact with individuals who continue to defend Fr. Corapi even for his disobedience should always counter with a quote from the man himself. Very effective.
I’ve not listened to anything from Fr. Corapi, apart from hearing him speak probably 8 years ago, but I’m sure that there are others who could find such statements by him and provide them here for use by others.
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guanophore
Guest
I know a lot of people have been hurt over this, but it is also one of the forum rules that we not disparage any of the ordained. We have been permitted to talk about this as it is a news item, but we will only be permitted to do if we stick to the published facts (avoid speculation and judgement) and remain charitable. Several threads on this topic have been shut down already for non-compliance with the forum rules.
Yes, and I think if SOLT erred in the matter, it was in this way. They could see all the good that came from his talks, and neglected to reign him in on the personal matters.
When he was called upon to join the community once they got a residence, it should have been pushed harder. How could they know that he was wandering astray in his isolation? God created humans to be social creatures, and made us members of a Body so that we can help one another get to heaven. It is a very rare individual that is called to live as a hermit.
I was glad too when I learned that there were so many Catholics who never heard of him. The less the damage spreads, the better.
Yes, but this does give us a glimse about where the Church is in terms of maturity. It reminds me of where Paul was admonishing the faithful about being factious.
1 Cor 1:11-12
1 For it has been reported to me by Chlo’e’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided?
31 therefore, as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord.”
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jwinch2
Guest
Thank you Brother. Would you mind if I were to share your thoughts on this?Whether his superior’s findings are accurate or not there are several things that all of us must keep in mind.
Father Corapi is a human being. As such, he deserves respect, charity and forgiveness. St. Francis of Assisi wrote into one of our admonitions that if a brother sins we must never deny him forgiveness. If the brother does not ask for forgiveness, we should go to him and ask him if he wants our forgiveness. If the brother insists that he does not need our forgiveness (because he believes he’s innocent or above us), we must grant the forgiveness as Christ granted forgiveness to those who never asked for it. If the brother has not sin, the forgiveness is not wasted, because the grace of charity returns to us. If he is guilty, the forgiveness is truly necessary.
As far as those who keep bringing up the issue of obedience, I’m unsure why this continues to be brought up. If any Catholic does not fully understand the theology of religious obedience, I suggest that he or she read the Rule of St. Benedict. St. Benedict is the father of religious obedience. All models of religious obedience are based on his theology, which is very well articulated in his rule. Instead of second guessing what obedience should be or as someone did on a blog who quoted Aquinas, go to the source, St. Benedict. Even Aquinas was not talking about religious life when he speaks about obedience. Quoting him is out of context.
Benedict made it very clear that once one promises obedience to the superior, one surrenders one’s will, one’s wishes, one’s goals, one’s thoughts, one’s gifts and all that one has or is. It is all handed over to Christ who speaks through the superior. Benedict does not get into the nonsense that 20th century Catholics get into, “What if the superior is a sinner?” or “What if the superior is wrong?” Benedict made it clear that the efficacy of the vow of obedience lays not in the virtue of the superior or in his wisdom. That and $1.50 will get you a ride on a city bus. The efficacy of obedience lays in the act of submission on the part of the person who obeys. When we obey a superior, we give up a lot and we do so out of love, not because the superior is wise or right. The superior can be a fool and totally wrong. The virtue is found in our willingness to submit to one who is a fool and may be wrong, because we love Jesus Christ so much that we want to do exactly as he did when he was on trial before Pilate. Obedience is an act of love. Love always has a price.
Someone posted that Bl. John Paul II ordered Father to go out and preach; therefore the superior cannot trump the pope’s orders. There are two errors here. One is canonical and the other is historical. Let’s first deal with the canonical issue. A religious superior can trump a pope, if the pope’s mandate is not given under obedience. If the pope says to a newly ordained priest, “I want you to go out to evangelize the world,” and the religious superior find that this command is not in the best interest of the individual and of his community, he can rescind that request. It only becomes an order binding under obedience when the pope puts it in writing and gives it to the major superior. The pope would have to say to the major superior that he wants this man for this purpose.
Let’s look at the historical error. Father himself has said that at the time of his ordination, the major superior told him to make preaching and teaching his ministry rather than serving in a parish. The reason was that he is too talented to waste in a parish. It was not the pope. It was the superior who gave him this mandate. The mandate is perfectly legitimate. However, if the constitutions allow it, the incoming superior can annul every command given by the incumbent. Father has repeatedly said that the founder gave him this mandate. He has never said that the successor does not have the canonical right to change the mandate. To the best of my knowledge, there are only three founders whose mandates can never be annulled or abrogated: Benedict, Augustine and Francis of Assisi. It would take an act by the Apostolic See to go over their heads. Their successors are stuck with what these guys left us. Every other founder is replaced by his successors and his commands cease to be binding unless the successor reaffirms them. Even Albert, who wrote the Carmelite Rule, did not include absolute commands in the rule. It’s a highly theological and spiritual document. The General Chapter is the highest Carmelite authority, not Albert. This means that the Prior General has the authority to impose and implement whatever the General Chapter decides. It’s the same for the SOLT.
Because the SOLT is a society of apostolic life of diocesan right, the founder does not have perpetual authority. His successor can make changes. The General Chapter can make changes and the Bishop of Corpus Christi must approve. In a religious order or a congregation of Pontifical Right, it is the Holy See that must approve of changes in the statutes that govern them.
Whether or not the bishop and the superior like Father Corapi, it’s a tough situation. The Church is on their side. It falls on Father Corapi to appeal. However, I’m having trouble imagining any judge feeling sympathetic to a person who broadcasts that the Church’s legal system is flawed and calls them Kangaroo Courts or some such thing all over the internet.
I can also understand the superior of the SOLT. He has to protect the good name of his society. It is one thing for a member to leave and another for a member to get everyone angry at them.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Peace,
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guanophore
Guest
So much evidence has emerged that SOLT found him unfit for ministry. Granted, this is not a proclamation of guilt, but it is their duty to suspend him because he is showing so many signs of being out of order/out of control.
Does that mean you think SOLT just made up all those things in their press release?
It is the evidence that resulted in the suspension from ministry.
There is more, in addition to what has been posted by SOLT, that they chose not to make public. However, the public info is sufficient.
Just the simple fact that his superior has called upon him to obey, and he has refused, is sufficient in itself.
If thise were true, then our crminal justice system would not be so overwhelmed, and our prisons would be empty. One of the symptoms of evil is that it tries to hide itself.
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mom4mary
Guest
I have seen this analogy crop up several places - the comparison of Fr. Corapi to a “rebellious” teenager and his superiors referred to as his “parents”, however, this comparison is simply not accurate, imho.
Fr. Corapi was ordained a priest as a fully adult man in his 40’s, after a reasonable period of formation during which time he was closely observed and found to be trustworthy and fit for ordination and the priesthood. And, let’s face it, the overwhelming majority of men who have been ordained to the priesthood throughout the ages ARE trustworthy men who set out to fulfill their priestly vows and promises in a mature and upright way. At the time of his ordination, he had clearly convinced those around him that he was a mature, trustworthy man and that is how his superiors proceeded to treat him. If they had viewed him as someone with the understanding and tendencies of an immature teenager, he would not have been ordained in the first place. So with that in mind, he was allowed to proceed with his preaching ministry, which unfortunately included him being left with little or no oversight.
It seems as if it has become an epidemic these days to blame everyone else and not take personal responsibility for our own bad choices or short comings. But in the case of Fr. Corapi, he did as an adult man who was believed to be fully in control of his own mental faculties take priestly vows at his ordination and he did promise certain things (such as poverty) to SOLT. While I agree that, knowing what we now know about his conduct, SOLT should have kept closer tabs on him, Fr. Corapi is still responsible for his own choices and actions, for better or for worse.
I know that many who defend him cry that those of us who are deeply disappointed in his behavior and are voicing that disappointment are just being unjust and are judging him unfairly. I, for one, am certainly not “judging” him, because I am a sinner, too, in need of a Savior, which is why I am a Catholic in the first place. However, I do not consider pointing out that someone is walking away from their vows and promises to be judgmental, instead in the case of Fr. Corapi, it is stating an objective truth about what he is choosing to do. And he should be encouraged to return and we should pray for his return to those vows and promises. It is not charitable, imho, to make him less culpable for his choices by comparing his behavior to that of a teenager vs. parents.
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guanophore
Guest
We must not grow weary in well doing. It will take combined and concerted efforts of intercession from all ofus to stand against the wiles of the devil.
James 1:19-21
19 Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Our anger too, is a call to prayer. Sometimes all we can do is pray our anger. If we are angry, how much more must God be grieved? The Blessed Mother?
As we strive to turn our grief, hurt, and anger into intercessions, God will receive our prayers.
Turn all that anger against the devil, and his minions, who are seeking to topple the shepherds of the Church so as to scatter the flock.
James 4:3-10
4 Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says,** “He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us**”? 6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. **Resist the devil and he will flee from you. **8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
If Corapi is to ill to do this for himself right now, the rest of us must do it on his behalf.
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guanophore
Guest
I think it is a funny story too. I can’t imagine that a pious priest as the one described would not be shaken to the core to hear the confession he claimed to give. I have no reason to doubt all the sins of which he has accused himself from the past (obviously not entirely past).
After recent events, I came to realize that I never remembered him speaking about the dark night of the soul. Everyone who has been to the dark side as he tells of himself, must later endure the inner work of coming to grips with all the harm they have done to others in the past. This is a terrible journey of remorse and pain. If one does not do this work, one never comes to a deep appreciation of the impact of their sins, and is in danger of falling into them again. The saints write about this.
I honestly never heard him talk about how he came to the conclusion “I am called to be a priest”. Clearly he had it before he went to that confession.
I wonder about this sometimes, but the reason that the Church has such a long discernment process, and there are so many stages, is to prevent those who do not have a genuine call. Even those who are genuinely called, and are confirmed in it by the Church may still fall into sin. During the pedophile scandals, I used to wonder “how did they ever get ordained”?
Yes, all scandal is unnecessary. I think SOLT did what they had to do, and I am sure they are all heartbroken, and maybe feeling guilty that they did not put more pressure upon him sooner to comply with the SOLT constitution. Narcissisitic persons are notorious for seeking and obtaining “exceptions” to the rules. Reinforcing them only makes them sicker.
Thanks for taking the time to search that out. May your recent reveiw of his talks put you in an even better position to intercede for him. I am so hurt I can’t even listen to them right now.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Brother,
I just want to focus on this bit of your post, but first let me say that the entire thing was very useful and I think I join others when I say that we value your expertise in these matters.
I also think that your point is broader than what I am focusing on – as you are focusing on the virtue of obedience qua obedience. But, you did bring up this idea, in passing, of a concern about the superior as a sinner, or wrong.
I think that the reason 20th century catholics often voice these concerns is simply due to the weight of recent history. And to put it in one word: Nuremberg. The defense of the guilty that they had orders to commit crimes reverberates through the 20th century conscience. It makes us suspicious. . . of orders, laws, decrees that might be commanding evil. Now, you didn’t mention an immoral order, only a wrong one or one that came from a sinner (it is a huge distinction!) but I think the reason that there is concern about lawful authority being wrong or a sinner is because of the underlying trepidation of being ordered to do something not just imprudent but rather immoral. Anyone who has been in a position where commanded by lawful authority (boss, officer, priest, etc) to do something immoral can tell you how great a struggle of conscience ensues between one’s duty and one’s moral sense.
Now – in many (most?) cases, what is being commanded isn’t immoral . . it might be difficult or distasteful, or imprudent or stupid, or coming from a superior who you don’t like or is downright an evil person. Or the order might even be a vindictive one. But all of those cases are different from the case of being ordered to do something evil. BUT, I think the instances where people have been commanded to do evil or participate in evil has given the modern Catholic mind a – possibly healthy – reminder to never to do evil.
Unfortunately, this is often perverted in us too easily into balking at ANY lawful command, and seeking to excuse our disobedience because we “disagree”. That is, I think, what you are talking about.
In the Fr. Corapi situation, what strikes me again and again is that he seems to be saying that he won’t be obedient because he feels he has much to contribute. That isn’t a case of a superior commanding something immoral – just commanding something distasteful or inconvenient. Couple that with the truth that Fr. Corapi’s(or anyone’s) talents are not essential to the mission of Christ, i.e. that the Church can get along fine without one of our talents and I find myself thinking that Fr. Corapi has made a misstep. The warning “And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones” seems apropos here. God can raise up countless Fr. Corapi’s (or at least, those who are as effectual as him). The termination of his preaching (at least for a little while) is not a good excuse for disobedience, at least in my personal opinion.
VC
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, of course. I think pobe was tongue in cheek on that one. 
His refusal to obey is sufficient by itself to warrant suspension. All the other evidence being examined makes the goose very saucy.
His refusal to obey is sufficient by itself to warrant suspension. All the other evidence being examined makes the goose very saucy.
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whm
Guest
wasn’t my analogy I would not have called him a teenager. But if he is called a teenager, then to complete the analogy, SOLT is the parent. Regardless of what SOLT did or didn’t do, he still has responsibility for his own actions or inactions, same goes for SOLT.
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mom4mary
Guest
Yes, as I said, I have seen this analogy crop up several places. I did not mean to imply that you were the original source. I am a new member, and I tried to quote another post in addition to yours, but unfortunately it didn’t work.
Nonetheless (and I am not addressing this personally to you, whm), I reject the analogy that compares a priest - ANY priest - to a teenager and his order compared to as a parent. These are grown men who we are talking about, men who have been through psychological testing and many years of formation and education prior to ordination. While each of us needs to feel accountable, such adults should not require the kind of oversight from their superiors that a parent would render to a child. It just isn’t the same thing.
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guanophore
Guest
James 3:1-3
3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all make many mistakes, and if any one makes no mistakes in what he says he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.
It was not what he SAID, which was perfect, but his failure to bridle his body under it.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
The head of a monastery is frequently called an abbot, which comes from the word abba, which means father.
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