New to TLM and facing a dilemma

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Contra Mundum,

The Holy Spirit is leading you to a greater understanding of things. As someone else mentioned continue to pray. But then also I recommend the following which Fr. Rippberger (FSSP) refers to as the “Traditionalist Challenge.” It consists of going to the TLM exclusively for a period of three months. After which time you are free to attend your novus ordo parish. But you will have a completely different outlook. The three months is important, though, and is based upon St. Thomas Aquinas’s thoughts on reforming habits.

God Bless you!
 
Hey Contra Mundum,

People shouldn’t take our Lord in their filthy paws in the first place let alone take communion from some “Church Lady”.

Hopping lines is not disruptive…if it is than it is no more disruptive than the hand clapping, hugging, hand holding, arm raising, praise band worship that typifies so many NO parishes in this country.

I know people who KNEEL (how may Catholics don’t kneel anymore!!!) for communion in NO parishes (not the norm)…if it is disruptive…THEN SO BE IT!.

Do you think Jesus was disruptive calling the Jewish priests out on the carpet?..trashing the temple?..of course he was.

This “go along to get along” mentality to the NO is shameful.
 
To Bumpy187:

Exactly!! It is of course allowed to loudly talk about vacations, school, kids, etc. before & after the liturgy (and preventing people from praying), and during the Mass. I can’t tell you how many times families directly in front or back of me have talked ALL the way thru Mass, including Consecration, Communion & quiet time afterwards. The ushers talk to people as they are going up to Communion, and during Christmas several years ago, I can’t tell you how many men were high-fiving each other up & down the aisle. But hey! No one says anything about that, do they? But let someone very quietly slip over to get into the priest’s Communion line, and all of a sudden we’re not team players. I want to play on another team, frankly. I am not a fan of Latin, although I had 2 years in h.s., but if that is what it takes to get a reverent Mass, then so be it. I don’t know why we can’t have the old mass ad orientem, but instead of Latin, say those wonderful prayers in the vernacular – NOT the vernacular we have now. I just don’t see why that would be such a big problem. Well, this is Los Angeles, and I’ll be dead before we see any changes for the better. Even though the Pope wrote about such abuses, we still have ice tea pitchers for the Precious Blood and in some parishes, glass chalices! I am doing my purgatory right now, only some days it feels more like hell.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Hi all,

I hope you can help me with this problem.

I have recently started attending TLM and found it challenging but worth it. I want to attend often but at the same time I want to stay connected to my parish where I am involved in some activities and care about that very much. TLM has changed my understanding of the Mass and I have changed my attitude towards what it means to actively participate, and also about the role of lay people in liturgy. I try to avoid taking communion form EMHC when I’m at my parish because it doesn’t seem right. This leads me to my dilemma. I sometimes read at Mass. Should I cease to do so? Is it a contradiction to read at Mass but not take communion from lay people? I’m very much inclined to stop doing readings at Mass but would appreciate your thoughts before making a decision.

Thank you!
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The EMHC Mass is as much a Mass as the TLM. Please consider line changing to receive from your priest. And never, never pass up the opportunity to receive the Eucharist even if it HAS to be from a lay person. I feel as you do about taking communion from a lay person so I make sure I get in line to receive from the priest. If reading interferes with your choice of who gives you communion perhaps you could think of another way to receive communion from your priest.
 
giuseppeTO said:
Juan,In the Traditional Rite of ordination, a sub-deacon is not a lay person. He has taken permanent vows and is ordained in minor orders.
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Nitpick: the subdiaconate is considered one of the major orders. Contrary to the opinion of Aquinas, however, it is now generally agreed that subdiaconal ordination is not a sacrament, while episcopal ordination is. That is the basis on which Pope Paul was able to suppress the subdiaconate - that it was instituted not by Christ, but by the Church.
 
Rosary Crusader,
thanks for the tip. I feel more and more drawn to traditional Mass. Last sunday I was debating where to go and in the end went to TLM rather than my NO parish. It was wonderful. I can see why so many people start attending it exclusively.

Sparkletina and Bumpy,
you are so right about disrespectful behaviour in church. It is absolutely awful. I sometimes can’t belive those people answering mobile phones just before Mass, talking, giggling, etc. I hope that things will start to change everywhere. I’ve started praying for the Holy Father every day. He is working hard on getting things to change and I believe it will happen gradually. Something is in the air :rolleyes:
 
If you can’t go to a TLM, go to an N.O. where you can get communion on the tongue from the priest. I motion with my hand towards my mouth before receiving, to clue him in as to what I want.

Line hopping should not be a problem to accomplish this.

If the trend is towards adding mundane elements to the liturgy we should not then be surprised if people behave casually in Church; they’re being given the message that this is a social occasion.

**What have the following got in common:
  • Communion, standing, in the hand
  • Lay lectors
  • EMHCs
  • Folksy hymns
  • Removing the altar rails
  • Priest facing the congregation?
Answer: they increase focus on the particpants and away from the Host, the tabernacle and the mysterious rite of sacrifice being enacted. **

If a laywoman can stand beside the priest and hand out the Host like biscuits, whereas previously the priest distributed it, to kneeling congregants, on the tongue, with a server to catch any crumbs in a paten, a strong message is being sent that the Matter is not as important as it once was. Or we are somehow, now, more holy than we were pre-Vat. II.

So if this is now some kind communal meal, with an affable priest making jokes and your neighbour in the sanctuary, it’s not suprising people are chatting in church or are dressed casually; that’s what they’re being clued in to do. It’s all so much more easy going.

One of the major contradictions of the post-Vat. II mentality is that liberals want to make our religion more accessible, folksy and ‘inclusive’ yet at the same time can’t understand why people drift way from it or don’t take it too seriously any more.

Y’can’t have it both ways.
 
Layman-

I agree that the state of affairs has a lot to do with priests and their behaviour. The standards have been lowered by them and naturally, people follow. I simply don’t understand this insistence on making Mass so people-oriented. What are they thinking?

Reading all these posts, I realise that my parish is actually quite good. We have a Communion rail (still, many take it in the hand), proper Mass music, Latin, quality sermons, people dress in a decent way. I have never seen a liturgical dance in my life. (Is that an American thing?) It is quite good in comparison to many churches. But I still believe it should be better.
It is not just Latin and Tradition that I love about TLM, it is a sense of the sacred. There is just something about it that even the most reverent NO does not have.
I am very excited about some recent developments in London and hope that it will spread in the north too.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Layman-

I agree that the state of affairs has a lot to do with priests and their behaviour. The standards have been lowered by them and naturally, people follow. I simply don’t understand this insistence on making Mass so people-oriented. What are they thinking?

Reading all these posts, I realise that my parish is actually quite good. We have a Communion rail (still, many take it in the hand), proper Mass music, Latin, quality sermons, people dress in a decent way. I have never seen a liturgical dance in my life. (Is that an American thing?) It is quite good in comparison to many churches. But I still believe it should be better.
It is not just Latin and Tradition that I love about TLM, it is a sense of the sacred. There is just something about it that even the most reverent NO does not offer in the same extent.
I am very excited about some recent developments in London and hope that it will spread in the north too.
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For the most part, I agree with the comments here. I, too, will cross lines to receive from consecrated hands only. I quit as a Lector years ago.

To be honest, I only attend a Novus Ordo Mass if I cannot afford to drive the 120 miles to the FSSP parish. Our group has been working hard to try and get some reverence at the local NO Mass. We’ve made some progress, but too many folks can’t stand the social pressures in resisting the progressives. They are too willing to compromise rather than insisting on reverence.

I am 100% in love with the old Mass.
 
Thanks for the links.

Not enough is done to teach people about the faith and practices. I have taken so many things for granted for many years and have only recently started learning more. Forums and blogs are a great source of information and inspiration. The Holy Spirit works in us through all these means but a little help from the clergy would help too 😃
 
=Contra Mundum;5459938]Hi all,
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I hope you can help me with this problem.
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I have recently started attending TLM and found it challenging but worth it. I want to attend often but at the same time I want to stay connected to my parish where I am involved in some activities and care about that very much. TLM has changed my understanding of the Mass and I have changed my attitude towards what it means to actively participate, and also about the role of lay people in liturgy. I try to avoid taking communion form EMHC when I’m at my parish because it doesn’t seem right. This leads me to my dilemma. I sometimes read at Mass. Should I cease to do so? Is it a contradiction to read at Mass but not take communion from lay people? I’m very much inclined to stop doing readings at Mass but would appreciate your thoughts before making a decision.
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Thank you!
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Excellent point and question.

I’ll try not to sound like a “sexist” here knowing that I will fail.

A careful reading of the documents of Vatican II, current Canon Law, and mutiple writtings of Pope JP II, all specify a preference for “male gender” altar servers, lectors and in the EXTREMELY rare case where actually and really warranted; Eucharisitc Ministers. [That is what "Extrodinary means; not everywhere and everyday by “everyone”] as is common abuseful practice.

I too struggled with this same issue. And came to the understanding that by going along with the “we are THEE church” crowd that I was setting an example of willing [perhaps for many unknown, but not for me] abuse of Romes directives, and consequently now have nothing to do in lay-support of the Once Sacred Liturgy. I do continue to teach RCIA and have have also taught CCD. No, I do not discuss these issues with the candidates for fear of scandalizing them.

I use to serve Mass, lector and even at times acted as a EM. That was many years ago.

It’s your decision, but I suggest that you not do so.

Love and prayers.***
Pat
 
corsair said:
For the most part, I agree with the comments here. I, too, will cross lines to receive from consecrated hands only. I quit as a Lector years ago.

To be honest, I only attend a Novus Ordo Mass if I cannot afford to drive the 120 miles to the FSSP parish. Our group has been working hard to try and get some reverence at the local NO Mass. We’ve made some progress, but too many folks can’t stand the social pressures in resisting the progressives. They are too willing to compromise rather than insisting on reverence.

I am 100% in love with the old Mass.
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Hey corsair,

If you are who I think, you haven’t been down to see us in a while. Drop by sometime! Come on the Feast of the Assumption, Sat. Aug. 15 and stick around for our church picnic to follow the second Mass! That will be exactly a year since I saw you last (St. Stephen…boy was it a cooker in there that night). Just bring a bag of chips or something. I’m thinking the second Mass will be at 11:00 but I’d have to confirm that.

And…if you’ve never heard of me, pardon my audacity in being certain you were someone else. In either case, God bless.

Rory
 
It’s has been awhile since I last posted. I thought maybe the truth about the SSPX would have come out by now, but I see there are still those who think they are the best thing since sliced bread. The SSPX have “enlisted” so many people into their way of thinking giving just enough truth to seem real. They keep saying they are “keeping the old faith alive”, but the old faith was not in opposition to the Pope. When the Pope said someone was not authorized to be a legal priest, then that someone didn’t go “over his head” and enlist a bunch of people to be his flock and pass himself off as being Roman Catholic.

Our Holy Father has said their priests have NO MINISTRY within our church. Which means they are not authorized to be giving the Eucharist. (and there are those who say that taking in the hand is not reverent! What is reverent about taking from a illegal priest?
an “illegal” touching the body of our Lord?)

When a “pastor” represents himself as a Roman Catholic priest and says mass when the POPE himself says that he isn’t legal, what or maybe I should say who do you listen to?

The Pope and only the Pope sits in the chair of Peter. He is the vicar of Christ here on earth. Should we ignore what he says and listen to these illegal priests? No, BECAUSE, that, my friend, is NOT tradition. Get priorities in order…first find a licit Roman Catholic Priest.

Don’t believe anyone who tells you how bad your church is. Keep the true faith. That’s is the fact that Christ said hell would not prevail. (That He would not let Satan sit in the chair of Peter.)🙂
 
Auntie_M said:
It’s has been awhile since I last posted. I thought maybe the truth about the SSPX would have come out by now, but I see there are still those who think they are the best thing since sliced bread. The SSPX have “enlisted” so many people into their way of thinking giving just enough truth to seem real. They keep saying they are “keeping the old faith alive”, but the old faith was not in opposition to the Pope. When the Pope said someone was not authorized to be a legal priest, then that someone didn’t go “over his head” and enlist a bunch of people to be his flock and pass himself off as being Roman Catholic.

Our Holy Father has said their priests have NO MINISTRY within our church. Which means they are not authorized to be giving the Eucharist. (and there are those who say that taking in the hand is not reverent! What is reverent about taking from a illegal priest?
an “illegal” touching the body of our Lord?)

When a “pastor” represents himself as a Roman Catholic priest and says mass when the POPE himself says that he isn’t legal, what or maybe I should say who do you listen to?

The Pope and only the Pope sits in the chair of Peter. He is the vicar of Christ here on earth. Should we ignore what he says and listen to these illegal priests? No, BECAUSE, that, my friend, is NOT tradition. Get priorities in order…first find a licit Roman Catholic Priest.

Don’t believe anyone who tells you how bad your church is. Keep the true faith. That’s is the fact that Christ said hell would not prevail. (That He would not let Satan sit in the chair of Peter.)🙂
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OK, I thought I was finished with this thread, but I’m not. There are assumptions being made and accusations flying.

Who said we are going to TLM at SSPX churches? That is an assumption. The Extraordinary Form of the Mass is the TLM and is offered within the Church. One does not need to attend the SSPX Church. Your Bishop is required to provide the Extraordinary form of the Mass if his flock requests it. Ask, my friends.

Secondly, stop bad mouthing the SSPX. They have legitimate concerns. There is a section of Church Law that states that a priest has a duty to disobey IF he firmly believes that the honor of God is being disrespected. These priests do believe that, it is the whole premise upon which they are operating. That is what they are talking to the Pope about.

Let the Pope do his work with them and keep your comments to yourself…they are misinformed and disrespectful as well as harmful to the body of the Church. Pray for the Pope and all priests, including the SSPX.

By the way…they are not “illegal”…that is not a term we use in the Church. That term is for the civil courts. The priests of the SSPX are fully ordained valid Roman Catholic Priests. They have been “suspended” from working. They ARE FULLY VALID PRIESTS. In the event that you would need a priest in an emergency…they could help you…THEY ARE PRIESTS. Get the message? Stop with this “illegal” stuff. Show some respect, please.

Thank you. God bless all.
 
Hyacinth_II said:
OK, I thought I was finished with this thread, but I’m not. There are assumptions being made and accusations flying.

Who said we are going to TLM at SSPX churches? That is an assumption. The Extraordinary Form of the Mass is the TLM and is offered within the Church. One does not need to attend the SSPX Church. Your Bishop is required to provide the Extraordinary form of the Mass if his flock requests it. Ask, my friends.

Secondly, stop bad mouthing the SSPX. They have legitimate concerns. There is a section of Church Law that states that a priest has a duty to disobey IF he firmly believes that the honor of God is being disrespected. These priests do believe that, it is the whole premise upon which they are operating. That is what they are talking to the Pope about.

Let the Pope do his work with them and keep your comments to yourself…they are misinformed and disrespectful as well as harmful to the body of the Church. Pray for the Pope and all priests, including the SSPX.

By the way…they are not “illegal”…that is not a term we use in the Church. That term is for the civil courts. The priests of the SSPX are fully ordained valid Roman Catholic Priests. They have been “suspended” from working. They ARE FULLY VALID PRIESTS. In the event that you would need a priest in an emergency…they could help you…THEY ARE PRIESTS. Get the message? Stop with this “illegal” stuff. Show some respect, please.

Thank you. God bless all.
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We should also mention that recently the “excommunication status” has been lifted and they really only now need to be fully regularized.
 
I must say that I am surprised because the mention of SSPX has appeared rather late in this thread. I expected it to be raised sooner.

No idea why people would immediately assume that TLM means SSPX. I have never been to their churches and don’t intend to before the situation is completely resolved.
 
Keep in mind too that when people use the term EF it usually only applies to regularized communities since the SSPX does not use that term and reject the notion of parallel rites.
 
Hyacinth_II said:
OK, I thought I was finished with this thread, but I’m not. There are assumptions being made and accusations flying.

Who said we are going to TLM at SSPX churches? That is an assumption. The Extraordinary Form of the Mass is the TLM and is offered within the Church. One does not need to attend the SSPX Church. Your Bishop is required to provide the Extraordinary form of the Mass if his flock requests it. Ask, my friends.

**Secondly, stop bad mouthing the SSPX. They have legitimate concerns. There is a section of Church Law that states that a priest has a duty to disobey IF he firmly believes that the honor of God is being disrespected. These priests do believe that, it is the whole premise upon which they are operating. That is what they are talking to the Pope about. **Let the Pope do his work with them and keep your comments to yourself…they are misinformed and disrespectful as well as harmful to the body of the Church. Pray for the Pope and all priests, including the SSPX.

**By the way…they are not “illegal”…that is not a term we use in the Church. That term is for the civil courts. The priests of the SSPX are fully ordained valid Roman Catholic Priests. They have been “suspended” from working. They ARE FULLY VALID **PRIESTS. In the event that you would need a priest in an emergency…they could help you…THEY ARE PRIESTS. Get the message? Stop with this “illegal” stuff. Show some respect, please.
Thank you. God bless all.
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Could you please tell us “what” section of church law you are referring to? (chapter and paragraph, please)

The Pope has declared their ministry, and I quote, “not licit”. That means illegal.** Licit=legal===if it is not licit–then it is illegal.**
By the lifting of the excommunication, they can now go to confession and get absolved. BUT, as far as I know, this has not happened. This means they are still outside the church. Not **fully reconciled **means not reconciled.
As the bible says, (paraphasing) you can’t straddle the fence. It’s all or nothing.

It is people who keep bragging about this group that keeps the church in an argument. Listen to the Pope, when he says they have no ministry within the church, how can anyone say that they do?

If we as Catholics are to call the Pope, “the Vicar of Christ” then he is Christ’s representative. If he is to represent Christ, who are we to stand AGAINST Christ?
Sounds very scarry to me.
 
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