NEW YORK: Lesbian [Episcopal ] Priest Nominee on List to be Next Bishop of New York

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what alot of rot!
Its cause I fully accept Jesus that I left the catholic church…whilst I agree with “Catholic Culture” to a point i.e. intercession of the saints, Altars, true presence in the Eucharist. there was also enuff stuff within the Catholic church that i don’t belive fits in with what Jesus would want.

i.e. I believe that men and women are equal and have a an equal calling to serve the Lord as Priests,
whilst I believe in real presence I cannot subscribe to Transubstantiation (and neither do the eastern Orthodox)
and I cannont believe with the knowledge we have we have today regarding sexual orientation that Jesus would have us exclude homosexual persons.

I think it’s a terrible statement to make that protestants don’t fully accept Jesus cause we are not in the Catholic Church…if that were the case the same would apply to Orthodox Christians as well.
what u mean is “YOU DON’T BELIEVE we fully accept Jesus”
Yes that is what is actually meant since these discussions center on belief. In any case even if we were to give them that Protestants don’t accept Jesus… I don’t subscribe to such a belief but lets just say for the sake of argument…

What they seem to be misunderstanding is that to not fully accept or to not be in full communion with the Catholic Church does not equate to Protestants REJECTING Jesus. :rolleyes:

The CCC I quoted sure doesn’t sound like the Catholic Church thinks they reject Jesus.

In fact their own Church says this about Protestants. “They are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” 🤷

Btw I liked your post and welcome to the forums!
 
. I believe that men and women are equal and have a an equal calling to serve the Lord as Priests,…
How would you reconcile that with what St. Paul said about women keeping silent in Church and wearing headcovering? I notice that these women priests do not wear headcovering as commanded by St. Paul, and they teach men in Church which is also condemned by Holy Scripture? Shall we follow Holy Scripture, the divine word of the Lord, or shall we make up our own rules as we go along and forget about the word of the Lord?
 
How would you reconcile that with what St. Paul said about women keeping silent in Church and wearing headcovering? I notice that these women priests do not wear headcovering as commanded by St. Paul, and they teach men in Church which is also condemned by Holy Scripture? Shall we follow Holy Scripture, the divine word of the Lord, or shall we make up our own rules as we go along and forget about the word of the Lord?
In that case the next time I’m at a Catholic Mass I’ll expect not to see a female lector, nor any females distributing the Lord and speaking the words, “The Body of Christ”, nor any women speaking in the pews.
 
In that case the next time I’m at a Catholic Mass I’ll expect not to see a female lector, nor any females distributing the Lord and speaking the words, “The Body of Christ”, nor any women speaking in the pews.
Yeah, that’s something I don’t get. I’m not in favor of female priests, but in light of scripture, I don’t understand why female lectors and EMsHC are allowed.
 
Yeah, that’s something I don’t get. I’m not in favor of female priests, but in light of scripture, I don’t understand why female lectors and EMsHC are allowed.
I’m sure someone will give a Catholic answer in defense. But maybe because the Catholic Church, like some of the ecclesial communities Catholics will take issue with, doesn’t rely solely on literal Scripture about everything either. 🤷 And I know Catholicism is not sola scriptura for instance.
 
Yes that is what is actually meant since these discussions center on belief. In any case even if we were to give them that Protestants don’t accept Jesus… I don’t subscribe to such a belief but lets just say for the sake of argument…

What they seem to be misunderstanding is that to not fully accept or to not be in full communion with the Catholic Church does not equate to Protestants REJECTING Jesus. :rolleyes:

The CCC I quoted sure doesn’t sound like the Catholic Church thinks they reject Jesus.

In fact their own Church says this about Protestants. “They are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” 🤷

Btw I liked your post and welcome to the forums!
i like your clarification - not to be in full communion with the Catholic church does not equate to Protestants rejecting Jesus. thank you! 👍
 
I’m sure someone will give a Catholic answer in defense. But maybe because the Catholic Church, like some of the ecclesial communities Catholics will take issue with, doesn’t rely solely on literal Scripture about everything either. 🤷 And I know Catholicism is not sola scriptura for instance.
Yes that is true.
Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."
I don’t know, it just sounds pretty definitive to me.
 
i like your clarification - not to be in full communion with the Catholic church does not equate to Protestants rejecting Jesus. thank you! 👍
7 Sorrows, thanks but I can’t take all the credit. I did get help from the CCC. 👍
 
How would you reconcile that with what St. Paul said about women keeping silent in Church and wearing headcovering? I notice that these women priests do not wear headcovering as commanded by St. Paul, and they teach men in Church which is also condemned by Holy Scripture? Shall we follow Holy Scripture, the divine word of the Lord, or shall we make up our own rules as we go along and forget about the word of the Lord?
I think this from Bishop Wright explains how I’m able to reconcile women’s ordination:
youtube.com/watch?v=QaVVXleoAdU&feature=player_embedded

the next thing I’d like to say is that I’m not a biblical literalist.
the bible supports the institution of slavery…plz don’t quote me as cannot quote scripture from memory but I recall st paul saying that slaves are to accept the Authority of their masters and Mistress. well I don’t believe in that either…
the bible is one way in which Jesus speaks to me, he has also has given me the gift of reason and tradition (yes Anglicans do believe in scared tradition but place less emphasis on it that Catholics do) and I use all these things together to work out God’s will.

and thank u to those who welcomed me to the board 🙂
 
I think this from Bishop Wright explains how I’m able to reconcile women’s ordination:
youtube.com/watch?v=QaVVXleoAdU&feature=player_embedded

the next thing I’d like to say is that I’m not a biblical literalist.
the bible supports the institution of slavery…plz don’t quote me as cannot quote scripture from memory but I recall st paul saying that slaves are to accept the Authority of their masters and Mistress. well I don’t believe in that either…
the bible is one way in which Jesus speaks to me, he has also has given me the gift of reason and tradition (yes Anglicans do believe in scared tradition but place less emphasis on it that Catholics do) and I use all these things together to work out God’s will.

and thank u to those who welcomed me to the board 🙂
He quotes from Romans16,1: And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae:
So it is your belief that Phebe was an ordained priest in the early Church?
If so, when did this practice stop?
 
Also I personalty believe that1 Corinthians 14:34–35 is post pauline.
when you come to realize that the different books of the New testament were written by different groups of Jesus Followers, each with their own interupation of what being a Jesus Follower was all about it then u realize that in alot of cases various opposing groups may have gotten their hands on their rivals books and added to it. personalty I see 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 being an example of this. it would seem as if this is an appeal to the law of the Old testament.

I shall quote Father Jerome Murphy-O’Connor, O.P:
1 Corinthians 14:34–35 are not a Corinthian slogan, as some have argued…, but a post-Pauline interpolation…. Not only is the appeal to the law (possibly Genesis 3:16) un-Pauline, but the verses contradict 1 Corinthians 11:5. The injunctions reflect the misogyny of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 and probably stem from the same circle. Some mss. place these verses after 40.
 
Also I personalty believe that1 Corinthians 14:34–35 is post pauline.
when you come to realize that the different books of the New testament were written by different groups of Jesus Followers, each with their own interupation of what being a Jesus Follower was all about it then u realize that in alot of cases various opposing groups may have gotten their hands on their rivals books and added to it. personalty I see 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 being an example of this. it would seem as if this is an appeal to the law of the Old testament.

I shall quote Father Jerome Murphy-O’Connor, O.P:
1 Corinthians 14:34–35 are not a Corinthian slogan, as some have argued…, but a post-Pauline interpolation…. Not only is the appeal to the law (possibly Genesis 3:16) un-Pauline, but the verses contradict 1 Corinthians 11:5. The injunctions reflect the misogyny of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 and probably stem from the same circle. Some mss. place these verses after 40.
It is interesting that some Catholic authorities are now claiming that the Bible reflects misogyny. What’s next? That the Bible reflects homophobia?
 
He quotes from Romans16,1: And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae:
So it is your belief that Phebe was an ordained priest in the early Church?
If so, when did this practice stop?
I don’t know if she was or was not. but it’s a possible conclusion.
either way our opinion of women has “grown-up” in the last 2000 years…back then they were seen as property, unable to think logically without the ‘wisdom’ of man guiding them.

frankly in my experience the reverse is true, women (like men) can be brilliant leaders both civilly and in religion.

if st paul really wrote the statements in 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 then he was influenced by a primitive social/cultural trend, that is now as outdated as his stance on Slavery.

we are happy to ignore his stance on slavery today…showing that we as Christians are capable ignoring the parts of the bible that are outdated without it damaging our faith, I think the issue of women clergy is another one of those things that will take time, but eventually most Christians will be able to come to terms with.
Change is difficult…but Ultimately Christ conquers all fears!
 
It is interesting that some Catholic authorities are now claiming that the Bible reflects misogyny. What’s next? That the Bible reflects homophobia?
well funny u mention that…I have a book ‘101 questions about st paul’…it says that the translation of "homosexual’ in Corinthians is an unfortunate translation. the author does still say that homosexuality is wrong, but in all truth when he explains what the word actually means in the koine greek and the context in which it was said it would seem he’s only agreeing with the catholic churches interruption cause he’s afraid of the consequences of doing otherwise. lol
 
I don’t know if she was or was not. but it’s a possible conclusion.
either way our opinion of women has “grown-up” in the last 2000 years…back then they were seen as property, unable to think logically without the ‘wisdom’ of man guiding them.

frankly in my experience the reverse is true, women (like men) can be brilliant leaders both civilly and in religion.

if st paul really wrote the statements in 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 then he was influenced by a primitive social/cultural trend, that is now as outdated as his stance on Slavery.

we are happy to ignore his stance on slavery today…showing that we as Christians are capable ignoring the parts of the bible that are outdated without it damaging our faith, I think the issue of women clergy is another one of those things that will take time, but eventually most Christians will be able to come to terms with.
Change is difficult…but Ultimately Christ conquers all fears!
let’s suppose that Romans 16, 1 does say that Phebe was either a priest or a deacon in the Church. The next question would be: How come later on women were not allowed as priests or deacons? And during what period was it allowed for women to be ordained in the early Church.
 
let’s suppose that Romans 16, 1 does say that Phebe was either a priest or a deacon in the Church. The next question would be: How come later on women were not allowed as priests or deacons? And during what period was it allowed for women to be ordained in the early Church.
for a start your assuming that ‘the church’ was one organisation from the beginning…with a unified theology, it was not! that’s why I refer to the early church as groups of “Jesus followers”
whilst Jesus Followers of various cities were united to some extent in their faith in Jesus the finer points of what they believed were up for grabs.
some form of gentile Christianity (Pauline) did have women priests as evident in the apocryphal story ‘The Acts of Paul and Thecla’ which was clearly written (like all the Gospels and letters) to put forth a particular group of Jesus’s followers Theology and point of view.

The truth is that the Origins of Early Christianity and the writing and complying of the bible (and editing of it) is very complicated and alot is lost in Antiquity. and sometimes 2 or 3 groups of Jesus’s followers got together to form one group and for the sake of unity moderfied their beliefs and disregarded previously ‘inspired books’ a good example is the book of revelations (the Syrian Church refused to accept it a canonical for ages and ages, and to this day Eastern Orthodox have more books in their Old Testament, and the oriental orthodox have even more)

do I know for certain that women were priests in the early church…No I do not…but I know for certain that nobody can disapprove it either!

I do however know for certain that women have been Deacons in the Eastern Half of the early Church…of course people who try are trying to stop womens ordination today are running around saying “oh by they weren’t ordained…it was like a lay diaconate” but the truth is they can’t confirm that either…why the early church would call these women ‘deacons’ (which is an ordained ministry) but not have them actually ordained doesn’t make much scene to me, surly they would have called them another name if the office was different from that of the male diaconate.

but should all this reasoning prove to be false and the bible and st paul really thought such nonsense about women, then once again It doesn’t phase me…already some of the stuff st paul said (as for mentioned slavery) is outdated and disregarded by the bulk of the worlds Christians.

a better question is why Christians are prepared to disregard the slavery comments of saint paul but not his opinion of women??? my answer would be time…Christians have had time to come to terms with Slavery as an evil institution (yet st paul doen’t see it as such) but it is, and we know this not cause the bible says it’s wrong but cause Jesus is always talking us, revelation didn’t end with the bible. in fact so many christians Including catholic whom Roman church often condemned with anathema slaves who fled from their masters, and refused them Eucharistic communion) complained when slavery became illegal saying it was a breach of their God given rights not to be able to own slaves.

we now know better don’t we?
and I would say that given enuff time Women’s ordination won’t such a big issue that it is today. Time heals all wounds, including bad biblical morality.
 
Yeah, that’s something I don’t get. I’m not in favor of female priests, but in light of scripture, I don’t understand why female lectors and EMsHC are allowed.
BEcause there are not encough men who volunteer for these positions. In actuality, the idea of the EMofHC only exists because there aren’t enough ORDINARY ministers of Holy Communion (Deacons and Priests) to facilitate Mass.
 
To this woman who is Nominee to become Bishop…May God grant her many years! if she is elected
I hope she lives a long and healthy life as well. But she is as much a priest as I am a mother of 4.
 
what alot of rot!
Its cause I fully accept Jesus that I left the catholic church…whilst I agree with “Catholic Culture” to a point i.e. intercession of the saints, Altars, true presence in the Eucharist. there was also enuff stuff within the Catholic church that i don’t belive fits in with what Jesus would want.

i.e. I believe that men and women are equal and have a an equal calling to serve the Lord as Priests,
whilst I believe in real presence I cannot subscribe to Transubstantiation (and neither do the eastern Orthodox)
and I cannont believe with the knowledge we have we have today regarding sexual orientation that Jesus would have us exclude homosexual persons.

I think it’s a terrible statement to make that protestants don’t fully accept Jesus cause we are not in the Catholic Church…if that were the case the same would apply to Orthodox Christians as well.
what u mean is “YOU DON’T BELIEVE we fully accept Jesus”
The Orthodox do not call it transubstantiation, but they understand the Eucharist in exactly the same way as the Catholic Church does (I was Greek Orthodox for 8 years).

God created a natural order. Part of that natural order is that women were created to be with men. God, and later St. Paul, call the act of being with the same sex an abomination and an unnatural desire. Love is not some heart pitter-patter that makes you feel loopy when you think of someone. Love is obedience and service, first to God, and then your fellow man (or woman). If the first part of that equation is wrong, then the second part of that equation is de facto wrong. You can think you are loving God when you love your fellow man, but if you are doing it in a way that is insulting to God, then you are insulting God, regardless of how you feel about it.

This brings up the entire problem with Protestantism. It is an entirely emotion based religion. Anything that they want to do is justified in Scripture. That is why Sacred Tradition is discarded, because much of it contravenes their basal passions. They want their cake and eat it too. They want to claim that they love Jesus MORE than the Catholic Church does…and have abortions, and have gay sex, and use contraception, and claim that the bread and wine is NOT actually the Body and Blood of Christ, that women can be priests, that you can get divorced and remarried as often as you want, that you can cohabitate, and the list goes on. All of this stuff was rejected by the early Church. Religious pluralism and “tolerace” have made it seem as though we have to accept the premise that you can reject the Church that Christ Himself established, and yet still accept Christ as fully as a Catholic can. Are not Catholic Christians still Christian? Yes. Will they have some 'splaining to do when they get to Heaven? Absolutely. “Accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” isn’t an automatic “get into heaven card”. Jesus said that we will be judged for every action we take and word we utter. Some of us are going to hear the words, “Get from me you evildoer, I never knew you”.

Do I say these things in hatred? Absolutely not, although I will be accused of it. Love is not permissiveness. Love is confrontation of wrongdoing and a demand for righteousness in the mold of Christ and His Church. The Catholic Church is not OUR Church, it was bought and paid for by Jesus Christ with his Body and Blood, the very Body and Blood that is rejected by non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians. You will have to answer the question, “Why did you believe that you accepted ME, but rejected my Body and Blood, which were given up for you?”
 
for a start your assuming that ‘the church’ was one organisation from the beginning…with a unified theology, it was not! that’s why I refer to the early church as groups of “Jesus followers”
whilst Jesus Followers of various cities were united to some extent in their faith in Jesus the finer points of what they believed were up for grabs.
some form of gentile Christianity (Pauline) did have women priests as evident in the apocryphal story ‘The Acts of Paul and Thecla’ which was clearly written (like all the Gospels and letters) to put forth a particular group of Jesus’s followers Theology and point of view.

The truth is that the Origins of Early Christianity and the writing and complying of the bible (and editing of it) is very complicated and alot is lost in Antiquity. and sometimes 2 or 3 groups of Jesus’s followers got together to form one group and for the sake of unity moderfied their beliefs and disregarded previously ‘inspired books’ a good example is the book of revelations (the Syrian Church refused to accept it a canonical for ages and ages, and to this day Eastern Orthodox have more books in their Old Testament, and the oriental orthodox have even more)

do I know for certain that women were priests in the early church…No I do not…but I know for certain that nobody can disapprove it either!

I do however know for certain that women have been Deacons in the Eastern Half of the early Church…of course people who try are trying to stop womens ordination today are running around saying “oh by they weren’t ordained…it was like a lay diaconate” but the truth is they can’t confirm that either…why the early church would call these women ‘deacons’ (which is an ordained ministry) but not have them actually ordained doesn’t make much scene to me, surly they would have called them another name if the office was different from that of the male diaconate.

but should all this reasoning prove to be false and the bible and st paul really thought such nonsense about women, then once again It doesn’t phase me…already some of the stuff st paul said (as for mentioned slavery) is outdated and disregarded by the bulk of the worlds Christians.

a better question is why Christians are prepared to disregard the slavery comments of saint paul but not his opinion of women??? my answer would be time…Christians have had time to come to terms with Slavery as an evil institution (yet st paul doen’t see it as such) but it is, and we know this not cause the bible says it’s wrong but cause Jesus is always talking us, revelation didn’t end with the bible. in fact so many christians Including catholic whom Roman church often condemned with anathema slaves who fled from their masters, and refused them Eucharistic communion) complained when slavery became illegal saying it was a breach of their God given rights not to be able to own slaves.

we now know better don’t we?
and I would say that given enuff time Women’s ordination won’t such a big issue that it is today. Time heals all wounds, including bad biblical morality.
There were never any authentic “women priests” in the early Church.
St. Irenaeus AD 189:
"Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . [H]anding mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.

"When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: ‘May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil.’

“Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him” (Against Heresies 1:13:2).
The gnostic heretic Marcus used women-priests to draw Christians away and into his cult.

Tertullian AD 203 said:
"[A female heretic]
, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. . . . But we, little fishes, after the example of our Icthus [Greek, “Fish”], Jesus Christ, are born in water . . . so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water" (Baptism 1).

Similar to above. In nearly every instance of the early Church, the use of women-priests was a indication of corrupted doctrine and a sign of schism and heresy.
 
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