New Zealanders hand in 50,000 guns after 'assault weapon' ban

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And I think you overestimate it. Even the Spanish partisans relied on British support during the Peninsular War, which is where at least some view modern guerilla tactics arose. It also helped that in that case Napoleon had most definitely bitten off more than he could chew.
 
And I think you overestimate it. Even the Spanish partisans relied on British support during the Peninsular War, which is where at least some view modern guerilla tactics arose. It also helped that in that case Napoleon had most definitely bitten off more than he could chew.
So you do recognize the role. Your conjecture on my understanding was wrong.
 
Step 1 will be depriving rebel zones of allies
I was referring to the rebel zone comment. There wouldn’t be just one area to attack. in a 2A movement, the whole country would have supporters and members. I was referring to a guerilla action versus outright full-blown war.
You’re missing it so badly that this really is my last shot.
Yes, you are, we aren’t talking soft bans where a cheaper alternative is available.

the black market will of course up the price but it will find a price point that works for buyer and seller. What good is a product you can’t sell? Someone else will undercut you. A seller will provide the product.

there already is a black market for illegal guns. it is thriving.
As most rebels do, they failed.
only in uniting Ireland, they weren’t eliminated as you think rebels will be.
 
Two points:
  1. The price of black market rifles will never achieve long term stability for quite some time because the entrance of replacements wont exist.
    Price stability will occur when, like with automatics, normal people cant afford them.
  2. Place whatever “bandaid” you want, the territory is under the sovereign rule of the UK.
The rebellion succeeded, largely, in having the Irish flag flown over the parliament building as a nicety.

Compared to the goals of the IRA, that’s failure. Of course, in order to avoid this harsh reality, goal posts get moved. Which is fine. I understand why.

Most governments are happy granting moral victories as long as they hold the real victories.
 
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Fine words. But the last I saw with polling in North Ireland, you’re as likely to find a local that identifies as British as you are Irish. Counter revolutionaries took greater tolls on the IRA than British regulars.
 
Make no mistake, I’m not against the Irish. I was merely defending the point that rebellions fail the vast majority of the time. Those that succeed have substantial foreign help.

This us in the context of guns in America. Against the greatest conventional military power in the world, American rebels would have no shot. The idea that middle aged men with AR15s within a Walmart culture would have any shot is just lunacy. And no outside aid of any real scale will come because it will invoke the wrath of the greatest military power on the planet at the moment.
 
Make no mistake, I’m not against the Irish. I was merely defending the point that rebellions fail the vast majority of the time. Those that succeed have substantial foreign help.

This us in the context of guns in America. Against the greatest conventional military power in the world, American rebels would have no shot. The idea that middle aged men with AR15s within a Walmart culture would have any shot is just lunacy. And no outside aid of any real scale will come because it will invoke the wrath of the greatest military power on the planet at the moment.
I’m astonished that the straw man continues. Well, maybe I’m not. Some thoughts:

The condescending comment about middle aged men in a Walmart culture reminds one of the comments by progressive media types during the election. These are the same urban progressives who are perfectly content to tolerate the vast majority of gun homicides committed with illegal handguns in the cities they rule, then will attack the rare though tragic attack with an AR-15. The fact is the “middle age men”, who include women, young people, a cross section of America, own the overwhelming majority of legal firearms and are least likely to use them illegally. Yet the anti-rights progressives claim these millions of law abiding Americans should give up their arms. Pathetic.
And no outside aid of any real scale will come because it will invoke the wrath of the greatest military power on the planet at the moment.
This is wishful thinking if the anti-rights progressives. We currently can’t stop the flow of drugs across the border, not that progressives want to. But even if they did, I don’t think the” Swalwell Solution”, internationally or domestically, would be any more than a threat.

But this remains a straw man. No one is currently calling for armed resistance against the American government. In fact, the only “resistance” is by progressives. They declared it in November 2016. Conservatives continue to believe in the ballot box while the progressives try to overturn the 2016 election.
Also being continued here is an idiotic notion that American troops would turn their weapons inward in defense of tyranny. While it is true that the prefatory clause of 2a gives this as a reason for the protection of the inherent right to arms, it is neither the only reason nor simply directed at domestic tyranny. It is more likely that the militia and the military would be allies.
 
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I’m astonished that the straw man continues.
Straw man?

Until they made the excellent decision to halt further sales, Walmart was the largest civilian vendor of AR15s on the planet.

And on the “middle aged white men” bit, ever been to a gun show? I’ve been to several in another life. What do you get when you remove the white guys in their 30s-50s out of convention hall? Cricket chirps.
Yet the anti-rights progressives claim these millions of law abiding Americans should give up their arms. Pathetic.
A couple points;
  1. Using over-broad, divisive language is forbidden by the rules of conduct on these forums, even if the great majority of bans and suspensions for violations are usually imposed when it’s left-on-right as opposed to right-on-left, as you’re beginning to allude to here.
    It would be a bit closer to parity if you would use descriptions instead of ideologue labels, if that isn’t too much to ask.
  2. I’m not arguing for anyone giving up anything they already own.
    Just like the automatics that Americans have already “given up”, grandfather exemptions would surely apply - especially as we’re both aware of how common they are.
We currently can’t stop the flow of drugs across the border, not that progressives want to. But even if they did, I don’t think the” Swalwell Solution”, internationally or domestically, would be any more than a threat.
Assuming you could convince a foreign government to openly supply a rebellion against the greatest conventional and nuclear military power on the planet (and you most certainly could not), you’d see the deployment of the national guard along the borders. And where the border was cluttered (Nogales, for example) eminent domain would be wielded to rapidly de-clutter it. And the full cooperation of Mexico and Canada in stopping foreign aid would be happily available as the US is responsible for the vast majority of the consumption of their foreign exports.

As said earlier, no chance at all. Absolutely none.

Assuming were talking about a conflict taking place within the lower 48, continental United States (something practically unseen since the Civil War as WW2 and The Mexican-American War struck American Territories) you’d see all the stops pulled out, for good or bad.
In fact, the only “resistance” is by progressives.
Off topic.
Divisive.
Irrelevant.
And false.
Also being continued here is an idiotic notion that American troops would turn their weapons inward in defense of tyranny.
Of course they wouldn’t. They’d turn their guns inward on the traitorous rebels and evil domestic terrorists that wanted to disrupt the safety and security of American life. As has been done several times in American history.

That’s what the rebels would be branded. And unless they’re successful (and they won’t be), that’s what they are.

You’re only a patriot and freedom-fighter if you win.
 
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The price of black market rifles will never achieve long term stability for quite some time because the entrance of replacements wont exist.
you put too much faith in the ability of the feds to stop smuggling, they haven’t been successful yet, but you are free to think they will be on this 1 item.

Black-market gun parts are already being smuggled in and out of the country.

52,000 parts were caught coming from china. confiscation is up but how many get through?
The seizure comes at a time when confiscations of gun parts, munitions, explosives and fireworks have increased 18% over last year, across the United States’ 328 ports of entry, Ruiz told NPR.
Place whatever “bandaid” you want, the territory is under the sovereign rule of the UK.
but they didn’t eliminate the rebels as you think they will in the states.

you give the government too much credit. we are no different than New Zealand

New York can’t even get people to register AR’s,
New York State enacted one of the nation’s strictest gun control laws. But three and a half years later, state records obtained after a lengthy court battle show that a key provision of the New York Safe Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act — mandatory registration of assault weapons — has been roundly ignored by gun owners in Ulster County and across the state.
New Jersey can’t get LCM’s turned in
How many of New Jersey’s 1 million or so gun owners have complied with the ban by turning LCMs in to law enforcement agencies? Approximately zero, judging from an investigation by Ammoland writer John Crump.
what have the authorities done to make the people comply with these laws?
 
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Using over-broad, divisive language is forbidden by the rules of conduct on these forums,
You mean like middle age guys in the Walmart era?
I’m not arguing for anyone giving up anything they already own.
Then I wasn’t talking about you, was I ?
Just like the automatics that Americans have already “given up”, grandfather exemptions would surely apply - especially as we’re both aware of how common they are.
And common availability is spoken of in Heller and Miller. Automatic weapons were not widely owned. Semiautomatic civilian firearms, such as the AR-15, are very widely held. In fact, semiautomatic rifles are by far the most widely held rifle. If you’re speaking of AR-15’s, you and I both know that rifles in general and AR-15’s in particular, account for a very tiny fraction of the gun homicides. There are an estimated 8 million to 10 million AR-15’s. Fewer than 20 have been used shootings. Targeting AR-15’s is targeting the law abiding. The major issue is illegal handguns in the major cities.
Fix that problem first.
Assuming you could convince a foreign government to openly supply a rebellion against the greatest conventional and nuclear military power on the planet (and you most certainly could not), you’d see the deployment of the national guard along the borders.
Oh, I thought the national guard would be going house to house. Or is the plan for the military to do that.
Again, this is a straw man. No one is proposing an armed rebellion against the domestic government, but if it came to that, it must be assumed said domestic government had turned tyrannical. It is ludicrous to assume that the American military would, en masse, defend such Tyranny. Already in Virginia, local law enforcement, before a statute has been passed, vowed not to enforce or help Northam and the Democrats’ anti-2nd plan.
The “you can’t win so turn them in” argument a straw man.
 
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Off topic.
Divisive.
Irrelevant.
And false.
None of the four.
Not off topic. The scenario presented is that there will be an armed rebellion. That is false. I simply pointed out where the real resistance is.
The divisiveness has come from said resistance.
If one is going to argue against a nonexistent rebellion, it seems relevant to refute that basic premise.
#Resist has been a thing since the inauguration. So to say that resistance is from progressives is a matter of fact.
Of course they wouldn’t. They’d turn their guns inward on the traitorous rebels and evil domestic terrorists that wanted to disrupt the safety and security of American life. As has been done several times in American history.
This seems to be such a low view of our sons and daughters in the military to believe they would attack their families for fighting against a government turned tyrannical.
 
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I do not get the focus on ‘assault weapons’. To start with it is a strange term; Nazi Germany and Sovjet Union assaulted Poland mainly with bolt action rifles… . An AR-15 is just a semi-automatic rifle. It has similar characteristics as the mini-14 which looks less dangerous. An assault weapon is a gun with selective fire (semi auto, burst or full auto).
“Assault weapon” is a politically contrived term, the meaning of which changes based on which civilian firearm and their law abiding owners are being targeted.
You are correct. An assault rife is fully or selectable automatic. It is also a political ploy to separate out and target the AR-15, which is essentially the same in function and power as any other semiautomatic rifle. Incrementalism at its most deceptive.
 
well why do the general public specifically need firearms? Just look at the lives they take. The US has had multiple shootings, London has had multiple shootings. Did God really put us on this earth for us to kill each other?
People who responsibly own guns do it for hunting and for self-protection. I see no problem with rifles, shotguns, and pistols. There is no reason for individuals to own weapons designed specifically for combat situations.

Additionally we need more monitoring and mandatory wait periods and training around gun ownership. Also mandatory across the board background checks.
 
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If you want to hold the idea that the military of the federal government and your “militia” would be allies, then fine. I’ll chalk it up as another quasi-religious belief.

The reality would be just like any modern rebellion you see. The Syrians in Damascus are the “true and faithful”, the ones in the south and east are domestic terrorists, not freedom fighters.

Same with the Troubles in Ireland and so on.

For starters, those that stayed with the military would be getting a paycheck. As we read in Ordinary Men, the German execution squads were populated by family men with mouths to feed and homes to fund.

Moreover, I think an American rebellion would fail so abysmally and be so starved of foreign assistance that it would strongly resemble The Troubles of Ireland.

Counter-insurgents among the rebel would take a far, far greater toll out of rebel forces than US regulars.

Just like The Troubles, the territory rebelled for would remain very firmly under “tyrannical” control.

But as my name sake said, we believe what we want and reason follows. If you think middle aged white men with ARs can overthrow American rule, you’re free to do it. Just like Wiccans and Mormons and Pastafarians are also free to believe the reality straining things they do.

shrug
 
If you want to hold the idea that the military of the federal government and your “militia” would be allies, then fine. I’ll chalk it up as another quasi-religious belief.
It isn’t my militia. It is America’s militia. But let me ask you: if Trump declared himself president at the end of his elected term, and canceled elections, whose side would the military be on?
 
People who responsibly own guns do it for hunting and for self-protection. I see no problem with rifles, shotguns, and pistols. There is no reason for individuals to own weapons designed specifically for combat situations.
The overwhelming number of civilian owned firearms are just that; civilian firearms. Only a tiny fraction are military weapons designed for combat. The vast majority of firearms are civilian semiautomatic arms , rifles and handguns, and well over 99.999% of the legally owned arms are never used in crimes.
Additionally we need more monitoring and mandatory wait periods and training around gun ownership. Also mandatory across the board background checks.
Which other constitutionally protected and enumerated rights can we include under these?
A 30 day waiting period for due process?
How about mandatory government training for the free press?
How about a mandatory background check to be protected from cruel and unusual punishment?

The NICS is in place. This makes waiting periods redundant.
Mandatory firearms training? Cool. Make it a high school prerequisite for graduation.
 
Also mandatory across the board background checks.
how do you do this with sales between criminals? after all that is the sales we want to stop, right?

or is it the control of people and explicitly poor people.
 
The federal government that pays him.

The president plays no role in the electoral process unless he’s running and laws come from Congress.

The fools that supported his continued rule would be the “anarchists and domestic terrorists” that any needed military response would be set against.
 
No one’s arguing that most civilian owned firearms are used nefariously.

They’re not.

But the laws that allow the common citizen to own them also allow 1. Any bad guy without a felony to own them and 2. Create a substantial secondary market where even the ones with felonies can.

As such, the only realistic course is a massive reduction in availability all across the board, which directly impacts both primary and secondary markets on a point of availability and cost
 
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