News from Diocese of Saginaw, MI

[MrS]

I don’t doubt your words, MrS, but I’m curious how you know that there is much resistance within the clergy and much simple ignorance among the laity.

And a followup question: is there also resistance (not just ignorance) within the laity?

Perhaps those who attend Mass in the diocese where actions are continued against which the Bishop has issued instruction… can better comment with specifics.

Simple ignorance is manifest in some of the posts defending some of the previous Bishops actions as being correct and not requiring change.

Resistance in the laity… that has existed for 2000 years… some to the point of abuse, some to heresy.

I guess the bottom line/question might be… Is Bishop Carlson better for the Church and for his diocese than no Bishop Carlson?

I am from the Lansing, not Saginaw diocese. And I believe we have similar problems.

 

[MICATH]

Well, the list would include:

[1] Getting a strong bishop in charge… done

[2] Getting a foundation for future priests and seminarians…done

[3] Slow and charitable instruction of the clergy… doing (with much resistance, sad to say)

[4] Slow and charitable instruction of the laity… doing (and facing much simple ignorance)

[5] Much prayer from the Catholic communities, not just in Saginaw, but also Lansing and Detroit, and beyound.

I am from the Diocese and the view from the cheap seats seems to be pretty accurate.

I have heard priests in the Diocese say that they are going to resist the Bishops plans, so I think the resistance is real. I have also seen some real progress in some areas.

One example of good works has been the use of seminarians as acolytes at the Cathedral. I believe their service during Mass has provided an example of how things should be done to the lay people who serve with them. I don’t attend Mass there regularly, but each time I am there, the Mass seems more reverent. Slow and charitible instruction of the laity.

Baby steps are being taken, but it all starts with the liturgy. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi

 

[frommi]

I am from the Diocese and the view from the cheap seats seems to be pretty accurate.

I have heard priests in the Diocese say that they are going to resist the Bishops plans, so I think the resistance is real. I have also seen some real progress in some areas.

One example of good works has been the use of seminarians as acolytes at the Cathedral. I believe their service during Mass has provided an example of how things should be done to the lay people who serve with them. I don’t attend Mass there regularly, but each time I am there, the Mass seems more reverent. Slow and charitible instruction of the laity.

Baby steps are being taken, but it all starts with the liturgy. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi

So clue me in…what was wrong with the servers before? Where they doing something significantly wrong? I’m not exactly sure how an altar server can create a scandal.

 

[MICATH]

So clue me in…what was wrong with the servers before? Where they doing something significantly wrong? I’m not exactly sure how an altar server can create a scandal.

Quit trying to start a fight everytime somebody posts something here.

I didn’t say the servers were causing scandal. These gentlemen have brought a reverence to the Mass in place of a very casual environment that had been present. They are doing an outstanding job and I think their presence is improving the worship of the whole community, My opinion; if you think differently fine, Be civil.

 

[bakhita]

It’s pretty well known that there is resistance from the clergy in Saginaw. All one would have to do is read the GIRM guidelines for celebrating the Mass…then attend almost any parish in the diocese and see for yourself how much of it is being followed. These GIRM guidelines were supposed to be implemented over a year ago. Many of the priests are obviously ignoring or openly defying this.
Can anyone name more than one parish where the GIRM guidelines are followed? St. Stanislaus in Bay City seems to be the only one in evidence. If there are more, by all means, let’s celebrate it. But unfortunately I don’t think there are.

 

[frommi]

It’s pretty well known that there is resistance from the clergy in Saginaw. All one would have to do is read the GIRM guidelines for celebrating the Mass…then attend almost any parish in the diocese and see for yourself how much of it is being followed. These GIRM guidelines were supposed to be implemented over a year ago. Many of the priests are obviously ignoring or openly defying this.
Can anyone name more than one parish where the GIRM guidelines are followed? St. Stanislaus in Bay City seems to be the only one in evidence. If there are more, by all means, let’s celebrate it. But unfortunately I don’t think there are.

Care to be specific? I know it’s easy for everyone to be general and push the presbyrate over a cliff while lauding “Robert the Great”…but unless you can be specific about what’s going wrong, it’s patently unfair.

 

[MrS]

Care to be specific? I know it’s easy for everyone to be general and push the presbyrate over a cliff while lauding “Robert the Great”…but unless you can be specific about what’s going wrong, it’s patently unfair.

any of the parishes using patents?? If not, that is unfair.

.

 

[MBS1]

I agree. If it is supposed to be done, the Bishop says to do it, the GIRM says to do it - and it is not being done, then as laity I (and maybe this is only my opinion but I don’t think so) can only conclude it is the resistance of the Pastors in implementing this. Example - No crucifix in many churches; still standing during the consecration of the host in many churches; no kneelers in many churches; those other than the ordained doing homilies. I could go on, but you get the drift. While there are deadlines set to implement these, why wait? The only conclusion I can come to is that if a church waits until the deadline when they absolutely have to change, that is their way of just defying the Bishop and telling him in no uncertain terms. That’s how I see it - resistance to the end.
MBS1

 

[jimmie]

One example of good works has been the use of seminarians as acolytes at the Cathedral. I believe their service during Mass has provided an example of how things should be done to the lay people who serve with them. I don’t attend Mass there regularly, but each time I am there, the Mass seems more reverent. Slow and charitible instruction of the laity.

Why does being a man, keeping your hands folded, and wearing a long white robe make someone more reverent? There is so much more to being reverent than this. It is disturbing that reverence is often so narrowly defined in this forum.

 

[MrS]

Is there a difference between:

[1] Christian Roman Catholic and

[2] Roman Catholic Christian.

I guess maybe the placement of the adjective could suggest differences…

A Christian(adj) Roman Catholic could imply that there are those Catholics who are not-Christian … perhaps, but confusing too.

A Roman Catholic(adj) Christian implies that there are Christians who are not Roman Catholic… this is very true, and this is the “title” I would suggest to those Catholics who need to use both terms.

So, jimmie, now you can have some fun with more things narrowly defined .

But for the sake of discussion… reverence to the Real Presence is something we can never have enough of… and certainly never have too much of.

At each point of the Mass one can opt for horizontal liturgy or a vertical liturgy… oh oh, there go those narrowly defining adjectives again:thumbsup:

.

 

[Lepanto]

Why does being a man, keeping your hands folded, and wearing a long white robe make someone more reverent? There is so much more to being reverent than this.

Nobody said that there isn’t more to being reverent than this.

So how do you define reverence?

 

[frommi]

At each point of the Mass one can opt for horizontal liturgy or a vertical liturgy… oh oh, there go those narrowly defining adjectives again:thumbsup:

.

You know Mrs. even the current pontiff has recognized that horizontal and vertical elements in the liturgy are not an ‘either/or’ proposition.

 

[MrS]

You know Mrs. even the current pontiff has recognized that horizontal and vertical elements in the liturgy are not an ‘either/or’ proposition.

So perhaps that is why Cardinal Arinze has referred to horizontal liturgy as heritical.

 

[frommi]

So perhaps that is why Cardinal Arinze has referred to horizontal liturgy as heritical.

I guess he feels its okay to disagree with the boss

 

[Sldr_for_Christ]

Fellow Bloggers,

I really enjoy your spirited debate on the Catholic Church of Saginaw. All of you evidently love the Church, though we all share differences. It is a privilege to be blest with the freedoms to have such discussions.

I couple pages back I invited the men on the forum to consider the upcoming 2008 Saginaw Catholic Men’s Conference. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=212529 I thought I’d offer you a bit of insight on what you might expect…

Four weeks from now, men of the Saginaw Diocese will gather in Bay City for a dynamic day of prayer and fellowship. The 2008 Catholic Men’s Conference is coming to St. Hyacinth on Saturday, March 1st. Cost is only $15.00! Men under 21 are FREE.

Why a conference? – This men’s conference is designed to ignite men’s faith, re-awaken our spirituality and rejuvenate our commitment to faith and family. And to bring men at all levels of their faith journey together to learn, praise, pray and become closer to Jesus Christ and his Church.

**What to expect? **-- You will be joining hundreds of other men. We will start the morning with coffee, donuts and registration in the gym, and then proceed to St. Hyacinth Church (8am) for devotions and confession. Along with Bishop Robert Carlson and other priests, we will then participate in Holy Mass. After Mass we are back to the gym. Lunch will be provided. There will be several dynamic speakers drawing upon the conference theme “Men of Faith in Tough Times”, among them, nationally known author and speaker, Deacon Alex Jones. You will hear Captain Guy Gruters, Vietnam veteran, relate how his faith sustained him during his five year captivity as a POW.

Much dialogue on this blog is focused on our new Bishop. Having attended the Mass for past conferences and heard the Bishop, I expect you will find a candid and rousing homily…by a man, for men.

Save the date now! Please consider coming to Bay City. I promise a reverent, spiritual, and enjoyable time with many new and old friends. Bring a buddy, your father, brothers, sons, uncles, and grandpas. Get your tickets early, so our food order is sufficient.

I look forward to being with you on March 1.

In Christ,

one Soldier for Christ

 

[piejesu]

Rumors Squashed…

At the Saturday Vigil Mass (2-2-08) the rector of the Cathedral delivered his “State of the Cathedral” address. It was a somewhat brief summary of an official, detailed document to be distributed to the parishioners sometime near the end of this month.

Some things mentioned were:

• Cathedral Campus renovation/renewal is well underway, which includes the scheduled demolition of the former St Mary School
• Renovation of the former convent which will include a new chapel, the renovation of the existing free mental health clinic sponsored by the Cathedral parish, and other spaces for various outreach activities
• A new slate roof for the Cathedral (much needed) will happen in the spring
• The ongoing study for the complete renovation of the worship space (interior) of the Cathedral

Several rumors were addressed, one being the relocation of worship during the renovation…the rector said that is NOT going to happen…

So much for the veracity of our highly placed source of un-official news……

 

[Lepanto]

• The ongoing study for the complete renovation of the worship space (interior) of the Cathedral

The last time I was there (2007), I was mortified by the cathedral’s interior.

Any idea on what direction they are taking with this? Will it be traditional? Any idea on schedule?

Thanks for the info.

 

[piejesu]

The last time I was there (2007), I was mortified by the cathedral’s interior.

Ah…well, that’s unfortunate. My experiences at the Cathedral have been quite different. Being an inner-city parish we are home to a much diversified cross section of people who come to the Cathedral for a great variety of reasons. Some homeless, some in adult foster care, many poor and marginalized, people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds.

When I enter the Cathedral, I am met by a warm sense of love and acceptance, a sensation that is heightened significantly when I enter the Chapel for prayer before mass. There in prayer and meditation, near the tabernacle, the Lord Jesus manifests Himself in the most wonderful of ways and His light illumines the Chapel with radiant splendor. I guess I am oblivious to the actual physical appearance of the chapel, I cannot help but be transfixed by His presence.

After prayer as I move through the nave. I see familiar faces; Marna a homeless woman (names and persons are fictitious but truly representative) who talks to herself throughout mass, Ralph and Janet with their mentally handicapped young adult daughter; they worry much about her future because they are getting older; she smiles and is merry.Over in the last pew Jake is huddled in his parka, he sleeps there during mass, but is always glad to share the sign of peace. Maxine a quiet black woman often shows up with her grand children; her daughter is a prostitute, addicted to crack cocaine. As I gaze upon each of these and many others I see Christ Jesus and His legions of mercy hovering around them, and the whole area is brightly illumined by His love. The nave becomes an extraordinary sanctuary of His presence. My heart is full and the mass has not yet even started!

Later when Father holds up the Lord, substantially present in the appearance of bread and wine, I see no bread, no wine, I see a savior; arms outstretched, a welcoming smile on His royal face, a hint of sadness in His all seeing eyes, the High King of Heaven, sublime in His appearance, infinite in His forgiveness, all powerful in His desire and ability to heal. The sadness I think is the lack of recognition He sees in the faces of some who come and while in the closest proximity of His appearing are unable to put aside their worries, cares, and concerns long enough to bask in His presence.

When by God’s grace the renovation is complete, I will share the news, and you can come and see. Perhaps your experience will be better at that time…

 

[Lepanto]

Ah…well, that’s unfortunate. My experiences at the Cathedral have been quite different. Being an inner-city parish we are home to a much diversified cross section of people who come to the Cathedral for a great variety of reasons. Some homeless, some in adult foster care, many poor and marginalized, people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds.

When I enter the Cathedral, I am met by a warm sense of love and acceptance, a sensation that is heightened significantly when I enter the Chapel for prayer before mass. There in prayer and meditation, near the tabernacle, the Lord Jesus manifests Himself in the most wonderful of ways and His light illumines the Chapel with radiant splendor. I guess I am oblivious to the actual physical appearance of the chapel, I cannot help but be transfixed by His presence.

After prayer as I move through the nave. I see familiar faces; Marna a homeless woman (names and persons are fictitious but truly representative) who talks to herself throughout mass, Ralph and Janet with their mentally handicapped young adult daughter; they worry much about her future because they are getting older; she smiles and is merry.Over in the last pew Jake is huddled in his parka, he sleeps there during mass, but is always glad to share the sign of peace. Maxine a quiet black woman often shows up with her grand children; her daughter is a prostitute, addicted to crack cocaine. As I gaze upon each of these and many others I see Christ Jesus and His legions of mercy hovering around them, and the whole area is brightly illumined by His love. The nave becomes an extraordinary sanctuary of His presence. My heart is full and the mass has not yet even started!

Later when Father holds up the Lord, substantially present in the appearance of bread and wine, I see no bread, no wine, I see a savior; arms outstretched, a welcoming smile on His royal face, a hint of sadness in His all seeing eyes, the High King of Heaven, sublime in His appearance, infinite in His forgiveness, all powerful in His desire and ability to heal. The sadness I think is the lack of recognition He sees in the faces of some who come and while in the closest proximity of His appearing are unable to put aside their worries, cares, and concerns long enough to bask in His presence.

When by God’s grace the renovation is complete, I will share the news, and you can come and see. Perhaps your experience will be better at that time…

piejesu,

I don’t doubt your experiences, but what do they have to do with the appropriateness of what a cathedral looks like? Does denuding the cathedral somehow make it any more of a welcoming place for the poor? (Argumentum ad misericordiam.)

Was the iconoclastic and minimalistic renovation of St. Mary’s (back in the 1980s I think) motivated by the desire to help the poor? I remember it as being quite expensive. Just think of how much money could’ve been given to the poor if that money wasn’t used to gut the cathedral of its beauty.

Are social services for the poor somehow mutually exclusive from beautiful churches?

I’ve attended more than my share of Masses at beautiful parishes located within various ghettos.

 

[lrs]

Ah…well, that’s unfortunate. My experiences at the Cathedral have been quite different. Being an inner-city parish we are home to a much diversified cross section of people who come to the Cathedral for a great variety of reasons. Some homeless, some in adult foster care, many poor and marginalized, people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds.

When I enter the Cathedral, I am met by a warm sense of love and acceptance, a sensation that is heightened significantly when I enter the Chapel for prayer before mass. There in prayer and meditation, near the tabernacle, the Lord Jesus manifests Himself in the most wonderful of ways and His light illumines the Chapel with radiant splendor. I guess I am oblivious to the actual physical appearance of the chapel, I cannot help but be transfixed by His presence.

After prayer as I move through the nave. I see familiar faces; Marna a homeless woman (names and persons are fictitious but truly representative) who talks to herself throughout mass, Ralph and Janet with their mentally handicapped young adult daughter; they worry much about her future because they are getting older; she smiles and is merry.Over in the last pew Jake is huddled in his parka, he sleeps there during mass, but is always glad to share the sign of peace. Maxine a quiet black woman often shows up with her grand children; her daughter is a prostitute, addicted to crack cocaine. As I gaze upon each of these and many others I see Christ Jesus and His legions of mercy hovering around them, and the whole area is brightly illumined by His love. The nave becomes an extraordinary sanctuary of His presence. My heart is full and the mass has not yet even started!

Later when Father holds up the Lord, substantially present in the appearance of bread and wine, I see no bread, no wine, I see a savior; arms outstretched, a welcoming smile on His royal face, a hint of sadness in His all seeing eyes, the High King of Heaven, sublime in His appearance, infinite in His forgiveness, all powerful in His desire and ability to heal. The sadness I think is the lack of recognition He sees in the faces of some who come and while in the closest proximity of His appearing are unable to put aside their worries, cares, and concerns long enough to bask in His presence.

When by God’s grace the renovation is complete, I will share the news, and you can come and see. Perhaps your experience will be better at that time…

AMEN! This is the church Christ intended. Surely, you have acknowledge and accepted the infinite love, joy, and hope of our Savior in the purity and truth of wisdom we all yearn for. May we all be able to be fine tuned to the Holy Spirit moving and working in and around us. Thank you for sharing the intimacy of your relationship with Jesus and this daily experience. This is our Lenten journey, to recognize Jesus in the poor, the hungry, the downtrodden, the opressed. HOWEVER, our witnessing is not enough, our words are empty without action. Our words do not take flight without prayer and grace. Our inaction is the greatest sin. Jesus uses our hearts, can we say no to this and be in peace?

We all received the booklet written by Bishop Carlson, Jesus Christ, the Divine Physician. Pastoral Letter on Penance.
It is an imperative read. It is about bringing people home. Healing for ourselves, healing for our neighbor, bring us into reconciled communion with our Lord. Jesus gives us what we need, tells us what we must do, but if our hearts are not open, when we fear, when we close our minds, we stand alone. The long term ramifications can be devastating, we must never say no when Christ calls us to action, to evangelize, to recognize Jesus in our brother, to reach out to that person we have hurt and who has hurt us. Our Sin does not stand alone, it moves from within us and infects those around us.

How can we capture what this really means? To come full circle to what Jesus asks of us,if we understood fully we would forget ourselves and be open to this all consuming love, we would never say No and we would never forget to Love one another.

We must kneel during the consecration, we must bow during the creed at the mentioning of Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary, we must worship as One, in congruence of heart, mind, and spirit. One with each other, one in spirit. This is how Piejesu lives his faith, this is my prayer for all of us.

Lisa.