Next to no salvation for Protestants, etc.

[Joey1976]

deb1:

Here is a scary thought. Catholics believe that there are mortal and venial sins. I have heard Protestants say that all sins are equal. No difference between small sins and say, murdering someone. Therefore, if Protestants are judged by their own beliefs won’t they have a harder time before God?

No, because they believe that all you have to do is confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior and you are going to heaven no matter what sins you commit.

I have been struggling with this same question this thread was founded on. Do Protestants have it easier to get to heaven? It is almost like if i could be ignorant of the Catholic Church i would have it easier because i could do things that i thought was ok by the Protestants, ex. birth control, no mortal sins, assurance of Salvation. If i was taught this and never taught anything else, i could no tbe held accontable even if it was wrong. Whoever taught me it would be held accountable, corrrect? Because i didn’t know any different, i was just listening to what i was taught.

 

[deb1]

Joey1976:

No, because they believe that all you have to do is confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior and you are going to heaven no matter what sins you commit.

I have been struggling with this same question this thread was founded on. Do Protestants have it easier to get to heaven? It is almost like if i could be ignorant of the Catholic Church i would have it easier because i could do things that i thought was ok by the Protestants, ex. birth control, no mortal sins, assurance of Salvation. If i was taught this and never taught anything else, i could no tbe held accontable even if it was wrong. Whoever taught me it would be held accountable, corrrect? Because i didn’t know any different, i was just listening to what i was taught.

Maybe it will take longer for them to remain in purgatory?

 

[puzzleannie]

Tim Hayes:

I would like to discuss the following, The Church states in many places etc that one must be a member of the Church to be saved, or in other words tied to the Church whether the individual knows it or not.

Tim

this is not an accurate summary of Catholic church teaching, so ensuing discussion based on some of the false or mistaken premises in this post is fruitless. Suggestion: go to the CA home page tracts and articles, read those on Salvation to find the actual teaching, then come back and start a discussion on a firmer basis. Please, do your homework.

 

[Delgadoajj]

Pere i Pau:

I’m with Tim. When we argue the “fullness” of faith, or “rejection” of truth, it doesn’t only confine to Christianity. As Tim noted, there is about .001% who willfully rejects the truth of anything, let alone that the Catholic faith is the true Church.

We turn to sin, even when we “know” it, That is correct. However, how many people “know” the truth of Catholicism? St.Paul, the three children at Fatima, etc etc. They have or had evidence. So, as we have faith, one can argue everyone is exempt from truly knowing, and would never willfully reject truth.

This is the danger with the ambiguity of the statement. It can blanket even the satanist. Remember, the lines between good and evil is not clear within humanity. This isn’t G.I. Joe. People don’t believe in the Catholic faith, stroke their hands and decide to leave it because they want to attack God. If they leave the faith, they are doing so because of a lack of faith.

Can they be held accountable because they never searched for what God has placed in their hearts, e.g. a thirst to understand there is a higher being? No, if they were a Navajo in 13th century America. However, we are suggesting that those who even have a remote idea of what Catholicism is are exempt because they don’t accept Catholicism and so are innocent. This is nonsense. If that be the case, even Hitler would be scot free. After all, if he knew truth, would he spit on it?

I think when we are generous with invincible ignorance, we fall into a slippery slope and it starts to appear the devil will burn all by his lonesome. Read some of the visions of St. Bosco, and all types of ignorant people are in hell.

As I said in another forum, like “extraordinary” ministers are used ordinarily, so invincibly ignorance is used ordinarily and this needs to stop.

God has mercy, and God must decide, surely. But I think the Church has been able to measure salvation for centuries, and the inclusive rhetoric of late is getting old.

Yes, God has perfect Mercy, but He also has perfect Justice. Many people nowadays want to forget the part about Justice. :twocents:

Jorge

 

[VociMike]

Before the Protestant Reformation things were simpler. You had to belong to the Church to be saved. After the PR Catholic theologians had to examine more deeply what it meant to belong to the Church. I think it is this re-examination that has given a different feel to the current teaching.

 

[steve_b]

Tim Hayes:

I would like to discuss the following, The Church states in many places etc that one must be a member of the Church to be saved, or in other words tied to the Church whether the individual knows it or not.

Now Protestants have a lot of different beliefs/practices about what is right and wrong according to Catholic Teaching.

We are told as Catholics that if we die in Mortal sin then we are probably going to hell.

Many of the beliefs and practices placed upon us are **considered to be mortal sin **if we don’t toe the Church teaching, artificial contraception etc.

Now we know that many Protestants are committing mortal sins as defined by the CAtholic Church but not according to their belief.

Protestants claim to follow scripture alone. Therefore they can’t deny that mortal sin vs venial sin exists. These classifications of sin is defined by scripture. Scripture defines it as sin that does not lead to death vs sin that leads to death. Catholics call these mortal and venial sins. Protestants may want to ignore the differences or classification of severity of sin but the fact that differences occur is scriptural 1 Jn 5:16-17

What makes a sin deadly which Catholics call mortal? By definition, mortal sins are sins with the worst impact to the soul. They are ones that can land one in hell. These sins are defined in Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, Col 3:5, 1 Cor 6:9-10 and other places as well… They are not impossible for Christians to commit.

John says these sins should not be prayed about for forgiveness like the non deadly sins can be prayed about… In otherwords the sinners prayer should not be relied on for deadly sins. Sacramental confession is the remedy for these grave sins. This is all scriptural. Protestants can’t deny these truths. The Catholic Church has been teaching this biblical truth throughout the generations.
Tim Hayes:

We know that the CAtholic Church states that their is the possibility of Salvation for those outside the Church if they do not know the Catholic Church is the true Church, yet they attempt to live a holy life.

Anyone not in the Catholic Church, or who has left the Catholic Church, do so becasue they generally believe that the CAtholic Church is not the true Church and that somewhere along the way the CAtholic Church has corrupted real Christianity. ( Hardly anyone would leave the Church believing that it is the real true Church)

If anyone does not believe the Catholic Church is the true real Church then according to Church teaching they can be saved despite this, becasue they are ignorant of the fact that they must be in the Catholic Church to be saved.

Now the crux of the question, how much leeway does God give non Catholics to get to heaven. If he leaves a lot of leeway then objectively it is of no great value to be catholic. If their is only minor leeway then it is extremely important to be catholic.

The above question leaves us with two outcomes, if leeway is small, then hardly any protestants etc are gong to be saved and therefor it is most important that we spread the Gospel to them as outlined by the catholic Church.

If leeway is large, then there is no real requirement to spread the Gospel as outlined by the CAtholic Church.

Now I ask you, looking back at the Church historically what has been the attituded of the Church(say first 1900 years) and what is the attitude of the Church in very recent history. I for one see a big difference to what the Church emphasised and practiced hundrds of years ago as distinct from recent times, in terms of the necissity for everyone to be catholic.

But then again maybe I am going crazy.

In Christ

Tim

There’s a saying, that the Church proposes and the HS disposes. Keeping with Our Lords teaching, the Church judges one’s actions inside the Church. Therefore, those inside the Church know what’s right and wrong belief and what the consequences are . But the Church reserves judgement on those outside the Church in regards to what they know. As scripture says, God judges all people but we need to reserve that God will judge those outside the Church [1 Cor 5:12-13]. You don’t mention in your bio what religion you are. If you are a practicing Catholic, be thankful you are inside the Church and have all the graces available to you that God has provided for salvation.

 

[Catholic_Heart]

It is clear from Church teachings that while the “fullness of faith subsits in the Catholic Church” (Lumen Gentium), all who are baptized in the correct formula are Christians, and own at least a part of the truth…We believe that the Cathoilc Church contains the complete deposit of faith, and we are privileged to share in that complete faith.

Some Protestants are more faithful and faith filled than some Cathoilcs…Some Protestants have an edge over some Catholics when it comes to salvation…Some Catholics are Christian in name only, just as some Protestants are. Only God knows which of us will be saved…

I get very angry when certain Cathoilcs try to say that non-Catholics, namely Protestants, cannot be saved…That’s just plain untrue. Jesus calls whom He will to Himself…We have no say in the matter,and have no business judging others…Especially other Christians. To do otherwise is to be smug, elitist and uncharitable. Most of us have enough on our plate just keeping our own souls in good repair, without trying to judge the state of the souls of others…
Sorry to ramble on…

 

[iwonder]

Tim Hayes:

I would like to discuss the following, The Church states in many places etc that one must be a member of the Church to be saved, or in other words tied to the Church whether the individual knows it or not.

No Tim, that is not the offical teaching of the Church. The official teaching of the Church is that joining the Church brings one into the
fullness of truth. And that joining the church brings one the ***fullness ***of grace if one is disposed.
Operative word here: fullness or if you prefer, wholeness.

 

[steve_b]

deb1:

Here is a scary thought. Catholics believe that there are mortal and venial sins. I have heard Protestants say that all sins are equal. No difference between small sins and say, murdering someone. Therefore, if Protestants are judged by their own beliefs won’t they have a harder time before God?

I’ve heard Protestants say the same.

For Protestants reading this, these classifications of sin are defined by scripture. Scripture defines it as sin that does not lead to death (Catholics call these sins venial) vs sin that leads to death (Catholics call these sins mortal). 1 Jn 5:16-17

As you can see, it is not scriptural to call all sins the same.

So you might ask, what makes a sin deadly which Catholics call mortal? By definition, mortal sins are deadly that is, sins with the worst possible impact to the soul. They are ones that can land one’s soul in hell. These sins and their consequences, are defined in Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, Col 3:5, 1 Cor 6:9-10 and other places as well…

Look these sins over and list them for future reference… For example, let’s pick one sin. Speaking of Protestants, division and factions within the body of Christ is a deadly sin. Gal 5:19-21. Paul puts a severe penalty on this sin. Yet Protestantism has carried this sin to an art form.

Note that John says deadly sins should not be prayed about for forgiveness like the non deadly sins can be prayed about… Catch that??? Not only is there division of sin, but also a division of remedy. In otherwords the sinners prayer as Protestants preach universally for all sin, should not be relied on for deadly sins according to John. Holy COW!!! What now???

Sacramental confession is the remedy for these grave sins. As Jesus gave His first bishops the power to forgive or retain sins Jn 20-22, it’s understood by this power, that in order to forgive or retain someones sins, the sinner needs to confess those sins to the bishop or his priest in order to know which sin to forgive or retain. And Protestants don’t have this sacrament because they don’t have valid holy orders…

 

[steve_b]

Joey1976:

No, because they believe that all you have to do is confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior and you are going to heaven no matter what sins you commit.

This is not scriptural

Joey1976:

I have been struggling with this same question this thread was founded on. Do Protestants have it easier to get to heaven? It is almost like if i could be ignorant of the Catholic Church i would have it easier because i could do things that i thought was ok by the Protestants, ex. birth control, no mortal sins, assurance of Salvation. If i was taught this and never taught anything else, i could no tbe held accontable even if it was wrong. Whoever taught me it would be held accountable, corrrect? Because i didn’t know any different, i was just listening to what i was taught.

You bring up the examples of birth control, no mortal sins, assurance of Salvation.

1. Assurance of salvation comes to those who do the will of the Father right to the end of their earthly life. There is no such thing as a person knowing if he, or who is, OSAS. Only God would know that and if He chose to reveal that to an individual.

Mt 7:
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

1. Mortal and venial sin is real, and defined by scripture. 1 Jn 5:16… Mortal sins are defined as those that can land one’s soul in hell. They are Eph 5:3-5, Gal 5:19-21, Col 3:5, 1 Cor 6:9-10 As Jesus says, don’t call me Lord and commit these sins. As He says, I don’t care if you drive demons out and perform miracles in my name, if you are an evil doer, I don’t know you.
2. Natural family planning is allowed, artificial birth control is not. Protestants caved in on artificial birth control in 1935. Before that not even Protestants agreed to birth control.

Don’t assume people can always plead ignorance on the last day if only they had teachers who taught them what they wanted to hear. God sees through that.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Joey1976:

No, because they believe that all you have to do is confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior and you are going to heaven no matter what sins you commit.

This is ambiguous - it could mean:​

Salvation is as possible to the repentant mass-murderer as to the stealer of a penny - for, if either is saved at all, they saved by the Grace of God.

That, is true. For, salvation is by grace - if God considered us, and “what we truly deserve”, we would be done for. But He considers, not us, but *Himself *and His good pleasure - which, is, to show His righteousness, His true character; and He is wholly gracious. He justifies the unrighteous, us, because He is utterly Righteous. And He does this, by providing for us a wholly Righteous Christ to be the propitiation for our sins, Who will be the Mediator between God and men. We are wholly unworthy to receive mercy - we have nothing in ourselves to boast of - therefore, He is merciful to us. It is His goodness, not ours, which is the cause of our salvation. So, salvation is not based on any human merit antecedent to God’s gracious justification of the sinner - nothing could be more absurd than that

Or it may mean (at worst):

No matter what sins professing Protestants may commit, they don’t have to repent of them; they can continue to pile sin upon sin and to live like devils - indeed, they ought to, that grace may abound - but will still be saved even if they seek to crucify Christ by their sins a thousand times a day.

Protestantism is, by this reckoning, a type of Christianity which rejoices to allow and bless every depravity and crime, and (in effect) teaches that the more men strive to outdo each other in depravity and evil, the more God will bless them. If you wish to lead a life of unrepentant wickedness, and to go to Heaven as the reward for being wicked - become a Protestant.

That, is false.

Yet that repellent picture is the only sense I can make of some of what is said about Protestantism - that it is nothing but an encouragement to unrestrained evil, and is not meant as anything else. If people think that of it - no wonder if it is not well understood. ##

I have been struggling with this same question this thread was founded on. Do Protestants have it easier to get to heaven?

Straight answer: No. If we are saved at all, it is by the same Christ, through the same grace. And because it is grace, and therefore a free gift, (not “cheap” grace), it is necessary to lead a holy life: as so often in Christian faith, there is a paradox here.​

It is almost like if i could be ignorant of the Catholic Church i would have it easier because i could do things that i thought was ok by the Protestants, ex. birth control, no mortal sins, assurance of Salvation.

Faith in Christ is not an excuse - still less a reason - to sin.​

When I was a Protestant, no ever taught me that Anglicanism or Presbyterianism was an encouragement to do wrong, or an excuse to do so. The people thought to do that, are the Catholics - because they are the folk who go to Confession. IMNSHO, Catholics & Protestants, because they are pitifully ignorant of each other, demonise each other, and harbour exactly the same illusions about each other: and are equally incapable of having their illusions corrected; it’s as though these illusions were essential to them - just in case they found each other to be as human and Christian as each of them is. This would be hilarious, if it were not so desperately sad, and dangerous. ##

If i was taught this and never taught anything else, i could no tbe held accontable even if it was wrong. Whoever taught me it would be held accountable, corrrect? Because i didn’t know any different, i was just listening to what i was taught.

 

[Catholic_Heart]

IMNSHO, Catholics & Protestants, because they are pitifully ignorant of each other, demonise each other, and harbour exactly the same illusions about each other: and are equally incapable of having their illusions corrected; it’s as though these illusions were essential to them - just in case they found each other to be as human and Christian as each of them is. This would be hilarious, if it were not so desperately sad, and dangerous. ##

Michael…You have brought up a very important point that we should all take to heart.

I have had lots of experience with both Catholics and Protestants, and what they beleive about each other’s faith…It’s so sad. Missconceptions abound, and no one really wants to know the truth about the other guy and his faith.

Sometimes I wish I could just sit people down…both Cathoics and Protstants I know…and make them discuss their faiths. Each would have the opportunity to explain what his or her faith espouses…and how they really practice their faith. I realize that there are differences within the Protestant denominations, and would invite reps of the major ones to share their faith…We just don’t know enough about each other…Wonder what God thinks of our bickering…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Two links on the error of “cheap grace”:​

The Lutheran theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer had a good deal to say against it - the (extremely unattractive) picture of Protestantism one gets from US Catholics seems to come from hearing of precisely such a distortion of the doctrine of grace. ##

 

[allhers]

Tim, I hope by now you have read the true teachings of the Catholic Church.
To post #38, JKirkLVNV, God bless your dear, compassionate heart, I am sure you know by now how you can make sacrifices for them, Indulgences, etc…If not, you can learn that here, at ewtn’s web site and at the vatican web site. www.catholic.com www.ewtn.com and www.vatican.va I think your grand-parents probably qualify in the “invincible ignorance” catagory, (through no fault of their own)the way they were raised and not having been instructed in the Catholic faith, however, only God knows, I think that if a Catholic did show up on your grandparents door step they would have been as happy to see them go as I am when I refuse to talk to a J/Witness. My parents were very much like your’s, however, they were very devout Catholics, if a J/Witness ever showed up on their door step, I am sure the J/Witness would have been converted on the spot. My parents however, are Saints, I am too impatient and unkind, (working on that).
To everyone else, I think that the advice someone else on here gave is very good,(I think it was puzzleannie that said it)- go read on the home page here at CA what the Church does teach about this, we already have far too many opinions, as Tim showed us when he started this thread.

 

[allhers]

One other thing, I just noticed that my signature may well be thought of by some as me saying that I think J/Witness’ are satan, I don’t, (I just think they are lost.)I have had that signature since I started on here, I mean the door of your heart by that, not your literal door.:tiphat: (just wanted to clear that up.)

 

[steve_b]

Gottle of Geer:

Two links on the error of “cheap grace”:​

The Lutheran theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer had a good deal to say against it -

Since Catholics don’t teach, preach, or believe in cheap grace, that message must be directed towards Protestants, true?
Gottle of Geer:

the (extremely unattractive) picture of Protestantism one gets from US Catholics seems to come from hearing of precisely such a distortion of the doctrine of grace. ##

Wait a minute. What Catholics get this “unattractive picture of Protestantism”? And where are they supposed to hear these distortions? BTW, I wasn’t able to open your liberals like Christ link.

 

[Lillith]

Salena:

I was listening to Catholic radio and heard a priest say that God will ask a protestant, who stands before Him in judgement, “Do you want to be Catholic?” If they say yes they go to heaven, if not they go to hell. That sounds a little far fetched to me. Just my opinion.

It’s not far fetched if G-d says…“The Catholic Church is my Church…do you want to be Catholic?”

 

[J_W]

Both Catholics and most Protestants have the same principles of salvation.Both are save by decisions and works of their free will. So both depend on an undependable salvation based on the undependable will of sinners. Only the specific acts are different. You can check out ex-christians blog and see how many have been deceived with this theology. Won’t change anyone’s theology. Sinful men cannot bear to hear the Potter makes his own choices.The supreme claim of fallen man is to be the master of his own fate and men will invent a god who tells them that his will and power is submissive to theirs.

 

[roguejim]

How’s this for a start?

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI

“The Church alone is the entrance to salvation.”
POPE PIUS XII

“The mystery of salvation is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from this single source it reaches the world. There is no salvation outside the Church. From her alone there flows the life-giving force destined to renew the whole of humanity, directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II

“He who does not keep the true Catholic faith whole and without error will undoubtedly be lost. He who is separated from the Catholic Church will not have life.”
POPE GREGORY XVI

“There is salvation in no one except Christ, and the Church is His Body.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II

“It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ;
it is impossible to be united to Christ except in and through the Church, His Mystical Body.”
POPE JOHN XXIII

“Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him completely and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten Son of God; the Body is His Church. No one can in any way be counted among the children of God unless they take Jesus Christ as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother. Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible head the Roman Pontiff. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort. This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it upon your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.”
POPE LEO XIII

 

[JMBNH]

The Church of St Augustine’s time were pretty sure that the Donatists weren’t saved and they were far more Catholic than any Protestant