Next to no salvation for Protestants, etc.

[roguejim]

IMNSHO, Catholics & Protestants, because they are pitifully ignorant of each other, demonise each other, and harbour exactly the same illusions about each other: and are equally incapable of having their illusions corrected; it’s as though these illusions were essential to them - just in case they found each other to be as human and Christian as each of them is. This would be hilarious, if it were not so desperately sad, and dangerous. ##

Michael…You have brought up a very important point that we should all take to heart.

I have had lots of experience with both Catholics and Protestants, and what they beleive about each other’s faith…It’s so sad. Missconceptions abound, and no one really wants to know the truth about the other guy and his faith.

Sometimes I wish I could just sit people down…both Cathoics and Protstants I know…and make them discuss their faiths. Each would have the opportunity to explain what his or her faith espouses…and how they really practice their faith. I realize that there are differences within the Protestant denominations, and would invite reps of the major ones to share their faith…We just don’t know enough about each other…Wonder what God thinks of our bickering…

Catholic Heart,

I would like to take issue with your first and third paragraphs.

The issue is this: Why must I come to know the doctrine of every Protestant sect out there, or for that matter, any? If I can simply know the truths of the One, True, Faith which is Catholicism, I can thereby know when error is being advanced. This endless “dialogue” which has been shoved down our throats since Vatican II has been a resounding flop. Oh sure, we talk ad nauseum. But what has the Catholic Church gained from all this insipid dialogue? Where are the resulting converts? Conversion is the goal, not endless dialogue. Many think the dialogue is the goal. Dialogue without Truth, i.e., Catholic Truth professed whole and inviolate, is worthless other than needlessly exposing the Catholic to potentially dangerous error. I would venture to say that more Catholics have apostatatized in the wake of this silly dialogue, than souls have come into the Church. Of course, I have no way of proving this. But, if the widely sweeping closure of Catholic Churches in the USA for the past 40+ years not to mention an undeniable vocations crisis is any accurate indication, I feel my contention is fairly accurate. God bless and Keep the Faith, the One, True, Faith…The Catholic Faith.

 

[Swan]

IMNSHO, Catholics & Protestants, because they are pitifully ignorant of each other, demonise each other, and harbour exactly the same illusions about each other: and are equally incapable of having their illusions corrected; it’s as though these illusions were essential to them - just in case they found each other to be as human and Christian as each of them is. This would be hilarious, if it were not so desperately sad, and dangerous. ##

Michael…You have brought up a very important point that we should all take to heart.

I have had lots of experience with both Catholics and Protestants, and what they beleive about each other’s faith…It’s so sad. Missconceptions abound, and no one really wants to know the truth about the other guy and his faith.

Sometimes I wish I could just sit people down…both Cathoics and Protstants I know…and make them discuss their faiths. Each would have the opportunity to explain what his or her faith espouses…and how they really practice their faith. I realize that there are differences within the Protestant denominations, and would invite reps of the major ones to share their faith…We just don’t know enough about each other…Wonder what God thinks of our bickering…

Good post! I read this type of thread with interest as I was raised Baptist, converted to RC and have recently left and am leaning toward Quaker/Society of Friends practice. Not all NCCs believe the same thing, so it is really not a good idea to generalize; for example: all Protestants believe in Sola Scripture. I believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but I believe the Spirit guides us as individuals and that we have no need of “official” authority (I do not beleive in “infallibility”. Sometimes I think God purposfully divided Christianity to see how good we really are at loving each other and accepting each other as we are, and how many would turn into modern-day Pharisees.

 

[roguejim]

Thank you, Swan. You’ve proved my point.

 

[Swan]

Thank you, Swan. You’ve proved my point.

Yes, modern day Pharisees are everywhere.

 

[Joshua2006]

No one said anyone was damning souls. Are we to expect there to be a criteria for one to be in mortal sin, and then turn and say we don’t know he or she is in a state of mortal sin, we let God decide?

Absolutely not. I’m not saying there is a cut and dry answer. I am saying that the way it is being focused by today’s laypeople and some clergy is appearing to be universal salvation. While some may not be advocating this. others are, knowingly or not.

If I may ask…

If no one is justified by the law.

And the concept of mortal and venial sin is no where written in scripture but a church doctrine.

How pray tell, can you follow a set of rules and depend on those rules when the law itself was impossiable to obey thus the reason for a Messiah?

Salvation is a gift.
It is by faith.
Not of ‘works’.

Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

“this not from yourselves”

If I have to go to church on a certain day.
Take communion during the course of a time period.
Do other things to ensure my salvation.

Do these things now in effect now become ‘works’.?

And if I call God ‘Abba’, does my Father throw me out because I failed to come up to some standard after coming to Christ?
I’m sorry, but I have a hard time calling a god ‘father’, with the possiability that I can be ‘orphaned’ by a transgression after his ‘gift’ and I trusted Him through ‘faith’ and was abandoned and damned because I was not able to save myself through the law to begin with and depended on the new covenant, by His power and sacrifice.

Moses the law giver, never entered the promise land because of a transgression.

Abraham was justified by faith.

I’m not in any way arguing.
But there seems to be some serious scriptural problems with Church doctrine and what scripture says.

 

[guanophore]

If I may ask…

If no one is justified by the law.

And the concept of mortal and venial sin is no where written in scripture but a church doctrine.

I agree that no one is justified by the law, and that the Teachings of the Church are equal in authority to scripture, but how can you say that mortal sin is not in scripture?

1 John 5:16-17
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

“Venial” is just the Latin term given to those sins that are not mortal.

How pray tell, can you follow a set of rules and depend on those rules when the law itself was impossiable to obey thus the reason for a Messiah?

I can’t think of a way.

Salvation is a gift.
It is by faith.
Not of ‘works’.

Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

“this not from yourselves”

If I have to go to church on a certain day.
Take communion during the course of a time period.
Do other things to ensure my salvation.

The Church was built by Christ to guide the faithful in the walk of life. Following the disciplines does not mean that one is not saved by grace, through faith.

Do these things now in effect now become ‘works’.?

It seems that you do not distinguish between works of the flesh, and Sacred Works. If done by a faithless person, I woudl say they are works of the flesh,and are not efficatious. However, if they are done in faith, they become sacred works. It is not the work itself, but the attitude of the heart in which it is done.

And if I call God 'Abba', does my Father throw me out because I failed to come up to some standard after coming to Christ?  I'm sorry, but I have a hard time calling a god 'father', with the possiability that I can be 'orphaned' by a transgression after his 'gift' and I trusted Him through 'faith' and was abandoned and damned because I was not able to save myself through the law to begin with and depended on the new covenant, by His power and sacrifice.

The father did not “disown” his son who took his inheritance, left, and squandered it. However, if he had not come to himself and repented, how would he have gotten back to the father’s house?

Moses the law giver, never entered the promise land because of a transgression.

This should answer your own question. Sins separate us from God’s will for our lives.

Abraham was justified by faith.

And by his works.

James 2:20-24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Do you realize that this is the ONLY place in scripture where the words “faith alone” appear together?

But there seems to be some serious scriptural problems with Church doctrine and what scripture says.

I think it seems this way to you because you are interpreting the Scripture out of context. The context of the NT is the Catholic Church.

 

[Joshua2006]

"1 John 5:16-17
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. "

The literal translation is not ‘mortal’…it is ‘death’. (Concordance)

Unrepenting or a ‘lifestyle’ of sin.

Paul for example, illustrates this to the Church of Corith.
1 Corinth
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[catholiconce]

From what I understand about the teachings of the Catholic Church is that we will have a higher place in heaven. Protestants will go to heaven just like we do, but our reward will be greater.
I was listening to Catholic radio and heard a priest say that God will ask a protestant, who stands before Him in judgement, “Do you want to be Catholic?” If they say yes they go to heaven, if not they go to hell. That sounds a little far fetched to me. Just my opinion.

Oh I have never heard about this catholicTeaching of a Split level Heaven. I guess us Protestants will be in Heaven as you say but we will clean up after you and then sleep in" employee housing". I am sure after the Dishes are done on Sunday maybe a few of the Friendlier Catholics will let us play SoftBall when they tire of it. What makes you think only catholics are going to heaven ? The Father determines who comes thru the gate. All Christians have the chance. If we are Christians we should not be asking who is going and who is not. If we assume others are going or not going to heaven we will never know because we will not be there to see who shows up

 

[guanophore]

Now we know that many Protestants are committing mortal sins as defined by the CAtholic Church but not according to their belief.

Since a mortal sin requires knowledge that it is grave matter, how can they commit one if they don’t know?

Now the crux of the question, how much leeway does God give non Catholics to get to heaven. If he leaves a lot of leeway then objectively it is of no great value to be catholic. If their is only minor leeway then it is extremely important to be catholic.

To those whom much is given, much will be required!

But then again maybe I am going crazy.

In Christ

Tim

You may, but that is irrelevant!

 

[wisdomseeker]

“If anyone does not believe the Catholic Church is the true real Church then according to Church teaching they can be saved despite this, becasue they are ignorant of the fact that they must be in the Catholic Church to be saved.”

intersting statement. now everyone is excused for not accepting that the CC is the True Church then. they dont have to believe, or they choose not to believe it. Let is say people who do not believe in Jesus because they are considered ignorants and unable to see or believe even though they have been told who Jesus is . are they also excused?

 

[AFollower]

The question is what does the bible say about salvation, not what a religion says about it.

The bible makes no distinction between those in a church, and those not in a church. Christ says follow me, not to come join my church or you will not get into heaven. Catholics get mad when evangelicals claim they are not christians. Understandably, we are sons and daughters of the Lord.

Romans 10:9 NKJV
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is how you are saved, not by taking sacrements or by going to an altar call at a baptist church.

 

[roguejim]

“No one reaches the Heavenly Jerusalem except him who is on the road, although not everyone who is on the road will reach it. To be a Catholic Christian is to be on the road and walking in the way. For it was not God’s will that the Church be hidden, so that no one might plead this excuse. It was foretold that the Church would be established throughout the entire world. And it has been made visible to the whole world. Hence, it is true that the Church is hidden from nobody. It is not allowed for anyone
not to know this Church; for which reason, according to the word of Jesus Christ, it is not possible that it be hidden.”
ST AUGUSTINE

“The means of salvation and sanctification are known by all men, and are necessary to everyone who wishes to be saved. The missionary mandate of salvation was made accessible to everyone.”
POPE PAUL VI

“It follows that ignorance has the nature of mortal sin on account of either a preceding negligence, or the consequent result; and, for this reason, ignorance is reckoned one of the general causes of sin. All sin proceeds from ignorance.”
ST THOMAS AQUINAS

“No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be.”
ST TERESA OF AVILA

“It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ; it is impossilbe to be united to Christ except in and through the Church; finally, it is impossible to belong to the Church except through the bishops who are united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter.”
POPE JOHN XXIII

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI

 

[Singinbeauty]

“No one reaches the Heavenly Jerusalem except him who is on the road, although not everyone who is on the road will reach it. To be a Catholic Christian is to be on the road and walking in the way. For it was not God’s will that the Church be hidden, so that no one might plead this excuse. It was foretold that the Church would be established throughout the entire world. And it has been made visible to the whole world. Hence, it is true that the Church is hidden from nobody. It is not allowed for anyone
not to know this Church; for which reason, according to the word of Jesus Christ, it is not possible that it be hidden.”
ST AUGUSTINE

“The means of salvation and sanctification are known by all men, and are necessary to everyone who wishes to be saved. The missionary mandate of salvation was made accessible to everyone.”
POPE PAUL VI

“It follows that ignorance has the nature of mortal sin on account of either a preceding negligence, or the consequent result; and, for this reason, ignorance is reckoned one of the general causes of sin. All sin proceeds from ignorance.”
ST THOMAS AQUINAS

“No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be.”
ST TERESA OF AVILA

“It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ; it is impossilbe to be united to Christ except in and through the Church; finally, it is impossible to belong to the Church except through the bishops who are united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter.”
POPE JOHN XXIII

“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI

Rogue,
How come you hardly EVER have thoughts of your own. You seem to steal into a conversation, quote a few early church fathers, then leave without expanding or explaining what you believe them to be saying…

I am disheartened that this thread has lasted for this many pages. To have such a HUGE number of people arguing back and forth about whether protestants can obtain salvation or not is just sad…

 

[Singinbeauty]

Oh I have never heard about this catholicTeaching of a Split level Heaven. I guess us Protestants will be in Heaven as you say but we will clean up after you and then sleep in" employee housing". I am sure after the Dishes are done on Sunday maybe a few of the Friendlier Catholics will let us play SoftBall when they tire of it. What makes you think only catholics are going to heaven ? The Father determines who comes thru the gate. All Christians have the chance. If we are Christians we should not be asking who is going and who is not. If we assume others are going or not going to heaven we will never know because we will not be there to see who shows up

I will be just glad to get there… My aim is not to get the best prize (because the presence of God is enough for me) but to get there… To choose a church because you believe you will get a better prize just saddens me… I don’t believe that God made heaven to be departmentalized just for this fact. He wants us there for HIM not for what we can ‘get’ prize-wise out of Him…

 

[catholiconce]

I will be just glad to get there… My aim is not to get the best prize (because the presence of God is enough for me) but to get there… To choose a church because you believe you will get a better prize just saddens me… I don’t believe that God made heaven to be departmentalized just for this fact. He wants us there for HIM not for what we can ‘get’ prize-wise out of Him…

Oh I agree !! I think you may have mistaken that I was responding to anther quote. Sorry for the confussion.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Oh I agree !! I think you may have mistaken that I was responding to anther quote. Sorry for the confussion.

No worries, I was actually agreeing with you regarding the post you were responding to.

 

[guanophore]

"1 John 5:16-17
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. "

The literal translation is not ‘mortal’…it is ‘death’. (Concordance)

Well, mortal sin is sin unto death. The reason it is called mortal is that it leads to permanent separation from God.

Unrepenting or a ‘lifestyle’ of sin.

Although it is true that unrepentant mortal sin, or a lifestyle of sin is certainly mortal, a person can commit a mortal sin only once, and still separate oneself from God.

Paul for example, illustrates this to the Church of Corith.

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Do you imagine that a person in unrepentant sinful lifestyle who has been excommunicates will still be saved?

 

[roguejim]

Rogue,
How come you hardly EVER have thoughts of your own. You seem to steal into a conversation, quote a few early church fathers, then leave without expanding or explaining what you believe them to be saying…

I am disheartened that this thread has lasted for this many pages. To have such a HUGE number of people arguing back and forth about whether protestants can obtain salvation or not is just sad…

Since my opinion has no authority, nor does anyones else’s here, I let the popes, saints, and coumcils speak. You mention me quoting “a few early church fathers”. I’ve quoted recent popes as well to show the continuity. The words are to be taken on their very face. Of course, I have more quotes to support this last contention, as well. But, if you are going to insist on searching for some deeper meaning in their words to the point where we pretend not to ever know what is plainly being stated, then I suppose there is really no reason to quote anyone of authority, is there? And this endless babble will just continue with no resolution. So, babble on…