NFP and marriage

  • Thread starter Thread starter hummy329
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
But the flip side of that is that if someone does not think it is valid, then it is NOT sufficient reason.
The problem being the difference of opinion. If she thinks it’s a valid reason it is; if he thinks it isn’t, it isn’t. Logically, this is inconsistent.
The OP’s fiance does not consider schooling sufficient reason to postpone children. His conscience says that it is not sufficient. The OP’s conscience is not saying to her that she has a moral duty NOT to have children. She is, by her own admission, simply frightened of doing so. She does not consider it immoral. Her fiance does consider postponing immoral.
So a strong conscience trumps other people’s opinions? Perhaps his conscience in this matter is poorly formed. Perhaps they should talk with a preist together to discern whether the OPs motives are serious enough to use NFP. Why should his opinion simply trump hers?
Why does her comfort trump his conscience? He is perfectly amenable to a situation that would more completely guarantee the OP’s smooth, uninterrupted graduation–postponing the wedding rather postponing the children. Why is this wrong?
“Comfort” is a misrepresentation of the OPs reasons. She has elaborated that further study is very necessary for a reasonable job prospect. She wants to be ready to provide for her family if needed. It’s hardly a frivolous or selfish motive.
OP, you love your fiance, yes? Why oh why would you want him to do something that he considers wrong because you are fearful? He is all right with postponing the wedding for your schooling’s sake. YOU are the one who is being demanding here. You want the marriage now, AND you want him to go against his conscience to give you this marriage now? Is that loving?
To be fair, she said this difference of opinion has only arisen in the past couple of weeks. They are well progressed towards marriage already, so it’s a little unfair to call her demanding.

But perhaps they should postpone (as I suggested anyway). But not because she isn’t loving enough and is too demanding, but because she’s on the path to marrying a man who potentially doesn’t respect her opinion.

I’d also add…if her reason is serious enough that they should postpone their marriage, then why would it not be serious enough to use NFP?
 
Is he touched by the theoretical providentialism? Is he touched by the Quiverfull movement in a " catholic way "? Is she touched by the traditionalist point of view about NFP (SSPX and friends)?

Is he rigourous man? Is he scrupulous man? Is he** moralist**? Is he puritanist or puritan? Who is the leader in the family, according to him? Who is the boss of the family, according to him? Who is **the boss **about marital act, according to him? Who is the boss for the conjugal sex, according to him? Who is the boss for deciding to conscientize the fact of making a baby?

ARE YOU READY TO OBEY HIM? IS HE READY TO OBEY YOU?
ARE YOU (HIM AND YOU) READY FOR THE MUTUAL AND RECIPROCAL SUBMISSION?

WHAT DO YOU (the furure bride) WANT ABOUT THIS TOPIC?** WHAT DO YOU WISH?** WHAT DOES HE WANT?
 
OP, I would caution you against entering marriage with the intention to practice NFP to avoid having children for the first two years. I do not think it is wise. One of the most important aspects of catholic marriage is welcoming children to the world and raising them. If you feel very strongly about not having children yet, it is perhaps better to wait until you finish your school. You are very young, only 22, you can wait for 2 more years to get married. Once you get married, your marriage and your family should come first, not your school. NFP will put a strain on a relationship between you and your husband, it is really not an ideal way to start your marriage. Ultimately, my opinion does not matter as it is a decision between you and your husband. But whatever you do, make sure that both of you are 100% on board, otherwise this will be a huge problem. It is much better to cancel your wedding even if your invitations already went out than go into the marriage with this issue unresolved.
 
A simple guess: perhaps, does he think that the fact of not practicing marital act during fertile times** will be very hard for him?
**
Honestly, I can understand that. It is human to want to be very sexually intimate with his love during the start of marriage: wanting to make love very often for love and fun, and the fact of needing to make love **very often **for avoiding the bad effects of concupiscence.

A TALK IS COMPULSORY.
 
A simple guess: perhaps, does he think that the fact of not practicing marital act during fertile times** will be very hard for him?
**
Honestly, I can understand that. It is human to want to be very sexually intimate with his love during the start of marriage: wanting to make love very often for love and fun, and the fact of needing to make love **very often **for avoiding the bad effects of concupiscence.

A TALK IS COMPULSORY.

This would be using her – as an object for his satisfaction.
 
I myself am not trusting enough to trust NFP. I don’t get it. .I personally would do what ever it takes to finish my advanced degree. But that’s me.
 
I feel so blessed to have found this forum. Thank you CAF for your words of wisdom. I have been reading all of your replies over and over again. Words cannot express how thankful I am for so much help during this difficult time in my life. Over the weekend I will discuss everything with my fiance and show him this forum. If anyone has more to add please share. God Bless you all.
 
Over the weekend I will discuss everything with my fiance and show him this forum.
That’s a good idea. There are pretty wide views expressed here; strong views from both sides of the equation as such. It will be good for the two of you to discuss it together. Communication is very important in marriage, so if you can work through this together in a respectful and considerate manner, it will put you in good stead for other issues to come.

I wish you both all the best.
 
The problem being the difference of opinion. If she thinks it’s a valid reason it is; if he thinks it isn’t, it isn’t. Logically, this is inconsistent.
I am afraid I must have been unclear. Sure, it might be a valid reason for her to postpone, BUT she is not saying that she has a moral imperative to postpone. He is saying that he has a moral imperative NOT to postpone. That is the fundamental difference. She is saying that she can, without violence to her conscience, purposefully refrain from having children at this time. She is not, so far as I can tell, saying that her conscience says she MUST refrain. He IS saying that his conscience is speaking here. They are not in disagreement that having a child at this time would be moral. So far as I have seen, the OP has not posted that she thinks it would be wrong to have a child now. Frightening, yes. Wrong, no.

This is why I stated that his conscience was speaking here in a way that hers was not.
So a strong conscience trumps other people’s opinions? Perhaps his conscience in this matter is poorly formed. Perhaps they should talk with a preist together to discern whether the OPs motives are serious enough to use NFP. Why should his opinion simply trump hers?
I think that I have addressed this above. You see, he is offering an alternative. He is suggesting postponing the wedding. That way his conscience is clear, and she does not have to face the fear of going to school with a child. I fail to see where his position is wrong.
“Comfort” is a misrepresentation of the OPs reasons. She has elaborated that further study is very necessary for a reasonable job prospect. She wants to be ready to provide for her family if needed. It’s hardly a frivolous or selfish motive.
As someone who completed her entire Master’s degree after marriage–and pregnant and with a child or two–I would say that her desire to complete her degree is fine. It is simply a matter of comfort when it comes to doing this before or after children.
To be fair, she said this difference of opinion has only arisen in the past couple of weeks. They are well progressed towards marriage already, so it’s a little unfair to call her demanding.

But perhaps they should postpone (as I suggested anyway). But not because she isn’t loving enough and is too demanding, but because she’s on the path to marrying a man who potentially doesn’t respect her opinion.

I’d also add…if her reason is serious enough that they should postpone their marriage, then why would it not be serious enough to use NFP?
What I am seeing here is that the fiance does not consider this motive sufficient for NFP. The OP does. Either he is required to do violence to his conscience (and practice NFP according to her desire), or they wait. He would like to be married and be willing to accept children. She would like to be married and not accept children … at least not yet. Postponing their wedding does not require that either of them go against their consciences or deal with the uncomfortable fear of pregnancy in school. Marrying and practicing NFP requires the fiance to go against his conscience. Marrying and not practicing NFP requires the OP to deal with the, for her, uncomfortable fear of pregnancy in school, but she is not required to do something she considers morally improper.
 
I don’t find making plans too far in advance very helpful. I know I have enough to worry about just worrying about today.

You and your fiance agree about the major path you’re going to take and that is what is important. Why not worry about the details as they arise? If you find you really can’t come to a compromise then just flip a coin.
 
Congratulations, OP!

You are getting married in approx 4 months (so, Mar 2013). You have two years left in your masters program (expected graduation: May 2015). What is your job situation now? Are you working? What about your DF’s? Where will you guys live? Who will pay bills? etc?

It is possible to go to school and have children - I had two. But, I chose to go part-time. Some can go full-time. I went full-time for a semester before we found out I was pregnant with my DD. I had to take two semesters off after that, though. If you did become pregnant, would you take a semester off? How would you handle daycare? Are night/evening classes an option?

It really depends on your program - in my program it has set me back enough that I switched programs… even though I would still really rather do program #1.

I think that you need to talk to your DF, and just tell him how you feel. Open and honestly. I would not use definitive terms like “when I am done with school” or when “x,y,z” has happened. Just tell him that you feel that a degree will help you out in the future so you can help provide for the family if necessary, especially if the worst should happen, or if he becomes disabled in anyway or loses his job.

You could tell him that you’d be okay with not avoiding during fertile times, but also with not tracking fertile times. That way, you are not doing anything specifically to avoid, or anything specifically to help, and if you get pregnant then it was God’s will.

It is so hard to accept God’s will and truly be open to children. However, I would still be hesitant to consider financial situation as “new” as yours. Good luck. 🙂
 

this would be using her – as an object for his satisfaction.
no, no, no, absolutely not.

The marriage has different ends, it is like that. One of them is for avoiding the bad effects of concupiscence.

during fiancaille no sex, thus after it is natural to desire and to wish marital act very often during the start of marriage: To express the conjugal love, to improve the bonding of love,** to have fun,** and also to avoid concupiscence.

to want the conjugal sex, for avoiding concupiscence is not immoral, is not scandalous, is not wrong: It is not the lust.

in the marriage, **the marital act is the rule and the principle: **not conjugal sex is the exception…

He is, perhaps, realistic about him (he knows himself), he knows, may be, **his own sexual weaknesses. **

**he has to be realistic, and she has to be realistic **about the conjugal sex life.
 
Having a baby needs to be a mutual decision. If you postpone the wedding, it should be to work out the issues between you regarding that and the fact that he doesn’t seem to want to take your concerns into account. To me, that is a scary red flag. He probably feels like he is being a good Catholic and potential parent by following a very conservative interpretation of “just cause,” but there is no list of specific reasons that count as “just.” It’s more about the attitude, i.e. you are postponing because you really do not feel psychologically ready for a baby and truly do feel you should finish your degree first as opposed to using them as excuses. Additionally, psychological reasons are specifically cited as a type of reason that could warrant postponing. 2 years is not a long time and will be spent earning something that will better support your family, it’s not like you are putting it off indefinitely so you can live only for yourselves or some other iffy reason. I know many people who have earned degrees while caring for young children, but they have said it was difficult and that it was a constant struggle to give the baby and the education the attention they deserved. I don’t blame you one bit for thinking it’s a good reason to postpone. Even if others could juggle it all, we all have our own limits and you need to understand and respect yours.
You also need to think of your future - if he is the type that leans towards the view that there is rarely a reason to use NFP to avoid pregnancy, you may be pressured into having more children than you intend to or to have a child despite a genuine psychological or physical reason to space another pregnancy.
Very good advice to the OP.👍
 
no, no, no, absolutely not.

The marriage has different ends, it is like that. One of them is for avoiding the bad effects of concupiscence.

during fiancaille no sex, thus after it is natural to desire and to wish marital act very often during the start of marriage: To express the conjugal love, to improve the bonding of love,** to have fun,** and also to avoid concupiscence.

to want the conjugal sex, for avoiding concupiscence is not immoral, is not scandalous, is not wrong: It is not the lust.

in the marriage, **the marital act is the rule and the principle: **not conjugal sex is the exception…

He is, perhaps, realistic about him (he knows himself), he knows, may be, **his own sexual weaknesses. **

**he has to be realistic, and she has to be realistic **about the conjugal sex life.

Without consideration/concern for the wife (even at the start of marriage) – yes – it would be using her as an object – for his own satisfaction.
 
The fact that the two of you disagree and he seems to have such a strong view is a greater problem than just the issue at hand. If you two cannot resolve this issue, without you just giving in for the sake of it, then perhaps you are not ready for marriage. Better to postpone, even if it is embarrassing to do so, than make a serious mistake if you two are not ready for marriage.
I agree 100%.

This deals with a fundamental issue, and is a major red flag. It must be addressed prior to marriage, or expect major problems afterwards. It will not simply go away.
 

Without consideration/concern for the wife (even at the start of marriage) – yes – it would be using her as an object – for his own satisfaction.
A simple guess:
His problem is probably that he is not able to talk to her about his own sexual weaknesses, about his fights against the wrong effects of his own concupiscence.

He knows himself, but, perhaps, he is not ready to open his heart about his sexual desires, his sexual hopes, his sexual needs, his sexual wills, his sexual sins…ETC.

OTHERWISE, I** AGREE WITH YOU,** HE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A DICTATOR, A BOSS, AN OPPRESSOR, A SINGLE MAN WHO DECIDES ALONE FOR HIMSELF, FOR HER, AND THUS FOR THE COUPLE ABOUT MARITAL ACT, ABOUT BABIES, ABOUT THE NFP, ABOUT EVERYTHING.
 
A simple guess:
His problem is probably that he is not able to talk to her about his own sexual weaknesses, about his fights against the wrong effects of his own concupiscence.

He knows himself, but, perhaps, he is not ready to open his heart about his sexual desires, his sexual hopes, his sexual needs, his sexual wills, his sexual sins…ETC.

OTHERWISE, I** AGREE WITH YOU,** HE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A DICTATOR, A BOSS, AN OPPRESSOR, A SINGLE MAN WHO DECIDES ALONE FOR HIMSELF, FOR HER, AND THUS FOR THE COUPLE ABOUT MARITAL ACT, ABOUT BABIES, ABOUT THE NFP, ABOUT EVERYTHING.

He should be working against — giving in to his “sexual weaknesses/etc” – instead of trying to “rationalize” – using his wife as object for his own satisfaction.
 

He should be working against — giving in to his “sexual weaknesses/etc” – instead of trying to “rationalize” – using his wife as object for his own satisfaction.
YOU ARE RIGHT, OF COURSE.

Nevertheless, the marriage himself with the graces of this sacrament, and with the future confessions, with the love from her wife, with the marital act by himself with its corollaries (the sensual and sexual pleasures and the conjugal orgasms) can be very helpful, for steps by steps, to fight his weaknesses.

MARIAGE IS ALSO, EVEN IF THE WORD IS NOT VERY BEAUTIFUL, IS AS A " TREATMENT " (THE WORD IS NOT totally relevant) FOR AVOIDING THE BAD EFFECTS OF CONCUPISCENCE.

HE HAS TO BE HONEST WITH HER ABOUT THIS ISSUE. SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO KNOW .
 
YOU ARE RIGHT, OF COURSE.

Nevertheless, the marriage himself with the graces of this sacrament, and with the future confessions, with the love from her wife, with the marital act by himself with its corollaries (the sensual and sexual pleasures and the conjugal orgasms) can be very helpful, for steps by steps, to fight his weaknesses.

MARIAGE IS ALSO, EVEN IF THE WORD IS NOT VERY BEAUTIFUL, IS AS A " TREATMENT " (THE WORD IS NOT totally relevant) FOR AVOIDING THE BAD EFFECTS OF CONCUPISCENCE.

HE HAS TO BE HONEST WITH HER ABOUT THIS ISSUE. SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO KNOW .

“Rationalizing” and giving in to sexual weakness – can send him down the road to more “rationalization” – becoming enslaved to his own self satisfaction – to the detriment of his wife.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top