NFP and men's complaints

[PennitentMan]

Hi there guys n gals!

First let me say:
Praise the Lord for he is Risen! Our Lord triumphed over Death so that we may have life everlasting! Happy Easter everyone!

I just found this thread again.


Thanks for all who posted so far.

I fall into the category of men who don’t really like NFP.
But, I do realise it’s a tool and without NFP things would be much worse…like no intimacy at all, most probably.

So, I think as a Catholic, NFP is a useful tool for couples to use.

Okay, brace yourselves:
I also think, as a Catholic that the Catecism is either too strict or too vague, or both on intimacy rules between husband and wife.

I just don’t see, since intimacy is such a problem for so many couples, men and women, why the Church doesn’t address this better, clarify some points, even make a few exceptions or add new guidelines to help couples struggling with this.

Just the fact that there are so many men and women here talking about this, makes me think that it should be addressed.
The inherit problem with this is that, if it is going to be addressed, it’s going to be addressed by clergy, who are celebate and honestly have no real clue what goes on inside marraiges. I have had priests tell me this themselves.

There are many specific examples that come to mind here, but I think maybe the Church needs to address the isssues at some point.

Some examples you ask? I was taught that if you highlight a problem, do your best to suggest solutions to it as well.
So, here goes.
2 options:

1. I think that searching06’s issue would help a lot of couples. It they were allowed to be intimate without actual intercourse during the fertile cycle, matters would be much better.
   I know what you are going to say: We need to be open to life at all times. Sure, but don’t you think, honestly that using NFP correctly the chances of getting pregnant by mistake is slim to none? Statistically, it’s more effective than any ABC, so if a couple does not want to conceive, they are not going to conceive. Period.
   I know I’m leaving myself open to all kinds of accusations here, but that is one option.
2. Selectively allow masturbation. Yep, here I go again. And definately put some guidelines into the clause to make things clear about what you can and cannot do, maybe even frequency, or something like that.

I wrote these suggestions just to be complete, not that they will ever happen, as far as I’m concerned.

My point is that you will have either very frustrated, unhappy, chaste husbands and wifes, or secretively lusting, pornography-watching husbands and wifes.

I’m in no way advocation going against the teachigns fo the Church. I follow them, even if I don’t understand them, I’m sure that after I die, I’ll see the reason in them clearer.
Please respect the Church and her rules, but these were some of my thoughts.

 

[gallo]

PennitentMan,
Pope John Paul II addresses intimacy between spouses some in the Theology of the Body. I haven’t studied the actual work in depth, but have studied Christopher West’s commentaries on it. Perhaps someone else who has studied the actual text could comment on how in-depth he goes. So as far as the Church addressing these issues, She has, just not in a detailed “how-to manual” sense.

There are plenty of threads on spousal intimacy in the fertile time on these forums if you want a different understanding of how husband and wife can be fullfilling to one another without intercourse or genital pleasure. Likewise, there are also threads (and links, I’m sure) about how NFP is still open to life even while the couple is infertile and masturbation.

My point is that you will have either very frustrated, unhappy, chaste husbands and wifes, or secretively lusting, pornography-watching husbands and wifes

Just to add a different direction of thought, selfishness is never satisfied. The frustration, lust, porn, etc. is a result of one’s desire for self gratification without keeping the dignity, feelings, and general well-being of others in mind. Jesus calls us to a change of heart to control and rid us of our sinful nature by being compassionate with others and ourselves. If a man or woman is such, then when sexual desires arise there will be a disposition that will help bring discipline and understanding when these desires are not satisfied. Just different ingredients to stir in the pot, not an attack.

I’m in no way advocation going against the teachigns fo the Church. I follow them, even if I don’t understand them, I’m sure that after I die, I’ll see the reason in them clearer.
Please respect the Church and her rules, but these were some of my thoughts.

Your faith and dedication to the Church’s teachings is encouraging! I pray that understanding will come to us all before we die.

 

[rlg94086]

Hi PennitentMan,

My wife and I found Christopher West’s Good News About Sex and Marriage helpful in understanding some of these issues. It is based on Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, which is a very complete study of sexuality and theology.

God bless,

Robert

I just don’t see, since intimacy is such a problem for so many couples, men and women, why the Church doesn’t address this better, clarify some points, even make a few exceptions or add new guidelines to help couples struggling with this.

Just the fact that there are so many men and women here talking about this, makes me think that it should be addressed.
The inherit problem with this is that, if it is going to be addressed, it’s going to be addressed by clergy, who are celebate and honestly have no real clue what goes on inside marraiges. I have had priests tell me this themselves.

There are many specific examples that come to mind here, but I think maybe the Church needs to address the isssues at some point.

Some examples you ask? I was taught that if you highlight a problem, do your best to suggest solutions to it as well.
So, here goes.
2 options:

1. I think that searching06’s issue would help a lot of couples. It they were allowed to be intimate without actual intercourse during the fertile cycle, matters would be much better.
   I know what you are going to say: We need to be open to life at all times. Sure, but don’t you think, honestly that using NFP correctly the chances of getting pregnant by mistake is slim to none? Statistically, it’s more effective than any ABC, so if a couple does not want to conceive, they are not going to conceive. Period.
   I know I’m leaving myself open to all kinds of accusations here, but that is one option.
2. Selectively allow masturbation. Yep, here I go again. And definately put some guidelines into the clause to make things clear about what you can and cannot do, maybe even frequency, or something like that.

I wrote these suggestions just to be complete, not that they will ever happen, as far as I’m concerned.

My point is that you will have either very frustrated, unhappy, chaste husbands and wifes, or secretively lusting, pornography-watching husbands and wifes.

I’m in no way advocation going against the teachigns fo the Church. I follow them, even if I don’t understand them, I’m sure that after I die, I’ll see the reason in them clearer.
Please respect the Church and her rules, but these were some of my thoughts.

 

[vluvski]

I know what 1 week is for but what is the second week for?

Some women have a longer phase II, or a longer perceived phase II, than others, which necessitates 2 weeks of abstinence to be sure the couple has excluded the possibility of pregnancy if a serious reason to avoid is present.

 

[PennitentMan]

Thanks rlg94086 and gallo for posting.

I hear what you are saying, and it’s all true. The Church did and does address intimacy in marraige…when both spouses are open and communicating.

 

[rlg94086]

My wife and I started using NFP, when we decided to have our third and fourth child. We didn’t take a class, rather we read a book and bought a system that tracks your temperature. My wife doesn’t chart, but she finds the mucous (I agree with the previous poster…eww! ) to be the most reliable.

The temperature-based device shows her in the green (non-fertile) mode for about two days of her cycle and yellow (cautious) for quite a bit. If we relied on that, my travel schedule would have to match up 100%, and we would only be intimate 1-2 days per month. That won’t work! Luckily, she has become very good at determining her fertility through mucous.

We are still struggling with communication, because we don’t use stickers (?) or a calender with marks on it. I joked with her that she needs a necklace with “fertile” on one side and “not fertile” on the other, so she can flip it accordingly.

 

[PennitentMan]

Hi Gallo.

Thanks for posting, I understand you are not stirring the post, and neither am I, I will address some of your responses here though, and I’m not arguing, just stating my point

PennitentMan,
Pope John Paul II addresses intimacy between spouses some in the Theology of the Body. I haven’t studied the actual work in depth, but have studied Christopher West’s commentaries on it. Perhaps someone else who has studied the actual text could comment on how in-depth he goes. So as far as the Church addressing these issues, She has, just not in a detailed “how-to manual” sense.

See my previous post.

There are plenty of threads on spousal intimacy in the fertile time on these forums if you want a different understanding of how husband and wife can be fulfilling to one another without intercourse or genital pleasure.

And that is why the threads are so long, because husbands’ and wives’ definitions of intimacy differs from each other.

Men has to be made aware of the fact that wives get intimacy (for the most part) from backrubs, romantic, candlelit dinners, moonlight strolls, talking for hours whilst looking up at the starts on a cool spring evening, being snuggled by the person you love.

Women need to be made aware that husbands gets intimacy (for the most part) from intercourse. It’s not the sex, it’s the physical showing, by his wife, that she wants to be one with him. That makes him feel intimate.

Likewise, there are also threads (and links, I’m sure) about how NFP is still open to life even while the couple is infertile and masturbation.

But all those threads shoot down the husbands asking if it’s fine. It’s not fine to ejaculate outside of your wife on purpose. Ever. According to the Church.

Just to add a different direction of thought, selfishness is never satisfied. The frustration, lust, porn, etc. is a result of one’s desire for self gratification without keeping the dignity, feelings, and general well-being of others in mind.

True.
But what about the wife’s duty to the husband…Is she keeping his well-being in mind by being closed to him and not communicating?
These husbands are almost forced into it by unwilling and closed spouses. I say almost because we still do have reason and will so we try our darndest to remain chaste, at the expense of other things, like stomach ulcers, grumpiness at home, etc.

Jesus calls us to a change of heart to control and rid us of our sinful nature by being compassionate with others and ourselves. If a man or woman is such, then when sexual desires arise there will be a disposition that will help bring discipline and understanding when these desires are not satisfied. Just different ingredients to stir in the pot, not an attack.

I see what you are saying, but you may be over generalizing a bit. I have been nothing but tried to control myself and rid myself of my sinful nature, I have been compassionate and loving to my wife, but no disposition was there during those nights of temptation for me…I was literally pacing up and down through the house, not trusting myself to pick up anything electronic, lest I fall into sin…everyone else was asleep, since they go to be early…so I was left to fight the battle in my head each night. My desires are not satisfied since I am denying myself for love of Christ. It’s tough…

 

[rlg94086]

And that is why the threads are so long, because husbands’ and wives’ definitions of intimacy differs from each other.

Men has to be made aware of the fact that wives get intimacy (for the most part) from backrubs, romantic, candlelit dinners, moonlight strolls, talking for hours whilst looking up at the starts on a cool spring evening, being snuggled by the person you love.

Women need to be made aware that husbands gets intimacy (for the most part) from intercourse. It’s not the sex, it’s the physical showing, by his wife, that she wants to be one with him. That makes him feel intimate.

Not always true btw…my wife has a more intense libido than I do…a back rub won’t do it for her…but she would like it in addition to intercourse.

 

[PennitentMan]

Not always true btw…my wife has a more intense libido than I do…a back rub won’t do it for her…but she would like it in addition to intercourse.

Then you are one lucky guy my friend.
Give thanks to the Lord for your wife.

 

[angiegirl67]

Some women have a longer phase II, or a longer perceived phase II, than others, which necessitates 2 weeks of abstinence to be sure the couple has excluded the possibility of pregnancy if a serious reason to avoid is present.

I understand what you are saying in theory but, I was wondering if you are doing the charting or is your wife? Have you noticed a clear pre shift 6 and then a clear temp rise to indicate ovulation? I don’t know if this is true but, I sometimes think that some wife’s use chart interpretation against there husbands. To avoid being sexual. I think if men would get involved in the charting then women would not have NFP as their excuse as to why they can’t tonight. If there are women out there that are doing that you should stop because it is giving NFP a bad wrap. When the issue is not NFP but something else. All of this is being said by a women so don’t jump all over me for it.

I’m not sure if everyone has gone through couple to couple method. If you have you have a life time membership, maybe some of you could go back to a class setting or even call an instructor and learn the charting aspect. Then the window might be smaller. I know in most cases the fertility window is only about 100 hours each month. Therefore, to avoid pregnancy you only have to abstain for about 4 days max.

 

[rlg94086]

Then you are one lucky guy my friend.
Give thanks to the Lord for your wife.

Believe me, I do!

I am especially thankful that she came around to Church teaching regarding sexual love. Christopher West helped us a lot - directly (he was Director of Family Ministry…or something like that…in our Archdiocese when I started to correct my understanding) and through his books. So, I thank God for his work, as well.

We just picked up a replacement copy of *Good News…*because my wife wanted to reread it after a recent faith formation class. It was a fun one because we have some parents who are more than willing to vocally challenge Church teaching. The teacher for the day was given the opportunity to answer some of those tough questions, with the support of other NFPers in the room…including a gynecologist.

 

[gallo]

PennitentMan,

And that is why the threads are so long, because husbands’ and wives’ definitions of intimacy differs from each other.

Agreed.

But all those threads shoot down the husbands asking if it’s fine. It’s not fine to ejaculate outside of your wife on purpose. Ever. According to the Church.

I’m not understanding this statement so I think I missed something. What is the husband asking if it’s fine?

But what about the wife’s duty to the husband…Is she keeping his well-being in mind by being closed to him and not communicating?
These husbands are almost forced into it by unwilling and closed spouses. I say almost because we still do have reason and will so we try our darndest to remain chaste, at the expense of other things, like stomach ulcers, grumpiness at home, etc.

I see what you are saying, but you may be over generalizing a bit. I have been nothing but tried to control myself and rid myself of my sinful nature, I have been compassionate and loving to my wife, but no disposition was there during those nights of temptation for me…I was literally pacing up and down through the house, not trusting myself to pick up anything electronic, lest I fall into sin…everyone else was asleep, since they go to be early…so I was left to fight the battle in my head each night. My desires are not satisfied since I am denying myself for love of Christ. It’s tough…

I understand. Even though I don’t know what you are going through personally, my heart felt its own mourning because what you have written sounds a great deal like my own struggles that I have had and that try to come back at times. However, I have to disagree on one point of the struggle: it’s not “tough”…rather it’s almost equivalent to torture at times. I encourage you to continue following the path you are taking: “for love of Christ”.
I will pray for you as one man for another.

Peace of the Risen Christ be with you,
Kevin

 

[uncleauberon]

Hi All,

• There is some pressure during the fertile times.

During the fertile times we have to remind ourselves that NFP doesn’t “impose” abstinence on us.

Instead, I always remind the both of us that this was “our choice”.

The most “Pro-Choice” kind of Family Planning.

• There can also be pressure during the Infertile times.

One or the other of us may not be able to “embrace”.
Yet we both know “there are only X days left” “the clock is ticking !” -

"What’s going on this Wednesday ? How about then ? – Maybe - If I’m feeling well. "

Basically -

I have decided that any complaints about NFP will not be a problem for us. It is our choice , the best choice.

Period ! Beginning a marriage has so many other hurdles to overcome – I am determined to consider this a “Non-Issue”.

Luckily intimacy is not a problem for us - we spend many hours - talking , walking, back rubs, TV - visiting friends.

Our Marital Embrace is a culmination of our established intimacy. We don’t’ want to ruin it by pressuring one another.

{This plan isn’t always perfect - but it gets easier as time goes by}

2 years and counting … {our blessings}

 

[angiegirl67]

Hi All,

• There is some pressure during the fertile times.

During the fertile times we have to remind ourselves that NFP doesn’t “impose” abstinence on us.

Instead, I always remind the both of us that this was “our choice”.

The most “Pro-Choice” kind of Family Planning.

• There can also be pressure during the Infertile times.

One or the other of us may not be able to “embrace”.
Yet we both know “there are only X days left” “the clock is ticking !” -

"What’s going on this Wednesday ? How about then ? – Maybe - If I’m feeling well. "

Basically -

I have decided that any complaints about NFP will not be a problem for us. It is our choice , the best choice.

Period ! Beginning a marriage has so many other hurdles to overcome – I am determined to consider this a “Non-Issue”.

Luckily intimacy is not a problem for us - we spend many hours - talking , walking, back rubs, TV - visiting friends.

Our Marital Embrace is a culmination of our established intimacy. We don’t’ want to ruin it by pressuring one another.

{This plan isn’t always perfect - but it gets easier as time goes by}

2 years and counting … {our blessings}

Awesome post I agree…

 

[PennitentMan]

PennitentMan,
I’m not understanding this statement so I think I missed something. What is the husband asking if it’s fine?

Maybe I misunderstood
I was under the impression that the husband asked if this mutual masterbation could end in ejaculation outside of the wife during the fertile period, so that the husband can have some sexual release. That is not fine as far as the Church is concerned.

I understand. Even though I don’t know what you are going through personally, my heart felt its own mourning because what you have written sounds a great deal like my own struggles that I have had and that try to come back at times. However, I have to disagree on one point of the struggle: it’s not “tough”…rather it’s almost equivalent to torture at times. I encourage you to continue following the path you are taking: “for love of Christ”.
I will pray for you as one man for another.

Peace of the Risen Christ be with you,
Kevin

Thank you Kevin,
I appreciate the prayers and the great disussion
PM

 

[PaulinVA]

My wife and I have been using NFP for around 17 years while having three more kids.

Sometimes it really does appear on the outside to be pitting husband against wife. But, if both are using NFP for the right reason, it shouldn’t be a problem.

My wife takes her temperature and records, and I interpret. That way, no one is ever "cheating’ with the temperature, observations, or interpretations. I don’t ever ever tell her that if she just gets one more temp over 98 or whatever that Phase III starts.

That said, it was really hard at first. I was dragged into it because it was so important to my wife. There were hurt feelings at first when she wasn’t ‘suffering’ as much as I during Phase II. But, I think that working together has made us much stronger, and able to both feel loved in our own way during the times we are abstaining.

 

[searching06]

Hi Gallo.
Thanks for posting, I understand you are not stirring the post, and neither am I, I will address some of your responses here though, and I’m not arguing, just stating my point

See my previous post.

And that is why the threads are so long, because husbands’ and wives’ definitions of intimacy differs from each other.

Men has to be made aware of the fact that wives get intimacy (for the most part) from backrubs, romantic, candlelit dinners, moonlight strolls, talking for hours whilst looking up at the starts on a cool spring evening, being snuggled by the person you love.

Women need to be made aware that husbands gets intimacy (for the most part) from intercourse. It’s not the sex, it’s the physical showing, by his wife, that she wants to be one with him. That makes him feel intimate.

Well, bingo. Thank you, PM, for stating this so well. This is my struggle and the nature of my posts. A man needs physical acceptance by his wife; I absolutely do. It does seem that other men somehow do not struggle as much. Something I aspire to and is terribly frustrating. Guess that’s where we fight the human side with prayer. And as mentioned, while we should not blame NFP, it is a factor in a lack of intimacy. Talk all you want about sunsets and backrubs; while I love the limited time I get with my wife, it does not take away the hurt of feeling - rightly or wrongly - that by following the Church’s guidance on our sexual behavior, I can’t have my wife or show her intimately how much I love her. Not just physically, but the intimacy PennitentMan so eloquently mentioned.

But all those threads shoot down the husbands asking if it’s fine. It’s not fine to ejaculate outside of your wife on purpose. Ever. According to the Church.

OK, here we go: this is one of my greatest frustrations because it obviously limits what a couple can do together to give the physical pleasure intended in sex, especially as it is OK for the woman to climax in any manner, but not the man. But this is the crux of what I posted before on the definition of “unitive”: it seems from interpretations and explanations, the Church expects couples to instantly think “is this unitive or is only for pleasure?” Of course it is pleasurable! But at the risk of TMI, this raises a critical question for me as a struggling Catholic husband - is there such a thing as wholesome, respectful, fun Catholic sex? It does not appear to be so at all. It seems the Church presents that sex is almost to be “sterile” for the lack of a better word: that if we are even intent on giving each other pleasure, it is not unitive and is wrong. And that if the man reaches climax through any act other than intercourse, no matter if his wife is being physically intimate out of love, it is not unitive. It seems that unitive only hinges on where the man reaches climax. As someone who loves my wife, desires intensely to show her, and hopes for reciprocation, I find this almost contradictory. It is probably more I do not believe you can separate the two if done in love - pleasure from unitive, or unitive from giving pleasure in love, intercourse or not. Part of me deeply believes this is not wrong at all (hence the struggle with Church teachings). It is true that if the first, sole focus is my personal satisfaction only, THEN it is not unitive. Please understand that in all of my babbling, I am continuing to pray for strength and understanding. It is a difficult at best.
True. But what about the wife’s duty to the husband…Is she keeping his well-being in mind by being closed to him and not communicating?

These husbands are almost forced into it by unwilling and closed spouses. I say almost because we still do have reason and will so we try our darndest to remain chaste, at the expense of other things, like stomach ulcers, grumpiness at home, etc.

I agree - we are almost “forced into it” (sin), and things can easily become “oh, what the heck” or “I have no other choice/outlet”, rationalized acts. It is not even being forced into sin so much as forced into the temptation of sin. But it is very much “almost” because we do have free will, as hard as it may be to take the right path in the face of that temptation and the myriad other feelings. /COLOR]
I see what you are saying, but you may be over generalizing a bit. I have been nothing but tried to control myself and rid myself of my sinful nature, I have been compassionate and loving to my wife, but no disposition was there during those nights of temptation for me…I was literally pacing up and down through the house, not trusting myself to pick up anything electronic, lest I fall into sin…everyone else was asleep, since they go to be early…so I was left to fight the battle in my head each night. My desires are not satisfied since I am denying myself for love of Christ. It’s tough…

 

[searching06]

Hi Gallo.

Thanks for posting, I understand you are not stirring the post, and neither am I, I will address some of your responses here though, and I’m not arguing, just stating my point

See my previous post.

And that is why the threads are so long, because husbands’ and wives’ definitions of intimacy differs from each other.

Men has to be made aware of the fact that wives get intimacy (for the most part) from backrubs, romantic, candlelit dinners, moonlight strolls, talking for hours whilst looking up at the starts on a cool spring evening, being snuggled by the person you love.

Women need to be made aware that husbands gets intimacy (for the most part) from intercourse. It’s not the sex, it’s the physical showing, by his wife, that she wants to be one with him. That makes him feel intimate.

But all those threads shoot down the husbands asking if it’s fine. It’s not fine to ejaculate outside of your wife on purpose. Ever. According to the Church.

True.
But what about the wife’s duty to the husband…Is she keeping his well-being in mind by being closed to him and not communicating?

I tried putting all of this in one reply - system would not let me. So here we go again. I would not even know how to go about explaining this better to my wife; I’ve tried, but maybe I’ve used the wrong words. I would not tell her it’s her duty to understand (I’d be dead), and we both know we need to work on communicating. I have tried to explain that my wanting to physically please her in sex makes me feel accepted by her, and makes me feel closer to her. And in not doing anything beween infertile times (other acts of sex), she knows I am frustrated (more so emotionally now than physically) and do not completely agree with the Church. I think it hurts intimacy; but then, that’s what I think and it is up to me to change, like it not, understand it or not. I did mention to a priest about our lack of sex and intimacy; he said we should talk and pray and decide what is best for us, but basically insinuated we should not be having sex that infrequently, especially to where it is causing so much stress between us. But then that almost begs the question, what is the worse sin: me falling into sin on my own as a man, or my wife and I being sexually intimate in other ways between infertile times? Well, sin is sin, and I would never force my wife into anything or even ask. So it again goes to the question: does the Church expect couples (or at least the man) to be this frustrated sexually in their marriages because the definition of unitive hinges on where the man climaxes and/or if the intent of couples having sex is unitive or for pleasure? Not trying to “stir the pot or the post”, but my conflict with this is rising for some reason. With all that said, I don’t know if I mentioned it in the other post, but with prayer, there is an odd inner peace and acceptance slowly growing - I’m not completely there or at the level others apparently are in this - even if I do not understand it all in the least. And here I will ask for prayers.

These husbands are almost forced into it by unwilling and closed spouses. I say almost because we still do have reason and will so we try our darndest to remain chaste, at the expense of other things, like stomach ulcers, grumpiness at home, etc.

I see what you are saying, but you may be over generalizing a bit. I have been nothing but tried to control myself and rid myself of my sinful nature, I have been compassionate and loving to my wife, but no disposition was there during those nights of temptation for me…I was literally pacing up and down through the house, not trusting myself to pick up anything electronic, lest I fall into sin…everyone else was asleep, since they go to be early…so I was left to fight the battle in my head each night. My desires are not satisfied since I am denying myself for love of Christ. It’s tough…

 

[manualman]

then why use NFP at all, why not just abstain completely?

Should a morbidly overweight person simply quit eating forever? Or do they merely need to fix an unhealthy attitude towards food?

NFP made me wait when we judged it not the time for another child. Somehow in the process this sacrifice of frequency helped move me away from a sex attitude of ‘getting off’ to one of making love. I’m not eloquent with words, but hopefully you can see a difference between the two concepts!

PenitentMan, masturbation of any sort moves you back into the mode of getting off instead of making love. And when it becomes habit, it damages your psychological ability to have a meaningful love-making session even when the situation is right. Christopher West can probably explain why better than I can. But remember that it isn’t supposed to be either procreative OR unitive, it is supposed to be BOTH. Every time. Some folks think procreative means a baby comes from it, but it really just means that you aren’t taking the pleasure of sex and simultaneously taking action to deprive it of its life-giving power. All contraceptive methods and forms of masturbation do this.

Another poster nailed it. You can avoid frustration simply by reminding yourself that NFP isn’t forcing you to avoid sex right now. You are avoiding sex because you have discerned that the time isn’t right for another child right now. The choice of severing the unitive from the procreative simply doesn’t exist. Breaking God’s law is like breaking the law of gravity: you can’t do it. You can only suffer the consequences of trying!

 

[vluvski]

I understand what you are saying in theory but, I was wondering if you are doing the charting or is your wife?

Not sure why most people on these forums who do not “know” me mistake me as a man:shrug: but that’s ok. I am a woman, and I do my own charting. DH just doesn’t seem interested in doing the charting, doesn’t seem to have retained any of what we learned in the CCL class together, and really just wants to know whether it’s “honeymoon time” or not (his words, not mine).

Have you noticed a clear pre shift 6 and then a clear temp rise to indicate ovulation?

I have a very lousy temp pattern and have basically stopped temping altogether because it was causing me a great deal of stress over doubts about my fertility.

I don’t know if this is true but, I sometimes think that some wife’s use chart interpretation against there husbands.

I don’t doubt this is the case with some women, and it is a really terrible thing to do. I would never do this to my husband.

Therefore, to avoid pregnancy you only have to abstain for about 4 days max.

Theoretically, yes, but the problem is that it is hard for some women to know exactly when those 4 days are. In order to make sure you avoid on the correct 4 days, you have to include some number of days before and after. I have ovulated as early as day 11, making day 6 a suspect day, and as late as day 23 when there were TWO instances of TWO DAYS of drying up that could have been confused for the beginning of Phase III too early since my temp is all over the place.