NFP and men's complaints

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Believe me, I hear you guys. But I still don’t think you realize the extent to which you continue to view sexuality as 2007 Americans instead of timeless catholics. (Not to say I’ve conquered those beasties myself, mind you!)

You talk as if the Judeo Christian teaching on sexuality is arbitrary and unsupported. In reality, the modern American notion of sex separated from fertility is the bizarre, unnatural notion. As far back as the old testament (Onan’s sin), God has revealed to us the immorality of taking the pleasure of sex while rejecting the procreative. Good luck finding ANY support for masturbation or contraception in Christendom prior to about 1900. Teaching on Chastity is not speculation, it is revelation.

I am not sure I find the teaching arbitrary and do not believe that Onan’s sin is a basis for Church teachings or even really a founded one on this issue; I do see where not being open to life is within teachings, but find the use of the story of Onan as a way to scare people, which mind you, turns people off to Catholicism. I agree that a modern view of sexuality and the idea that these are our bodies to do with as we wish leads to a conflict with Catholic Church teachings. I also have a book on Christian sexuality which goes nowhere close to the restrictions of what the Catholic Church teaches, which causes me frustration as well at the “discrepancies” and differences.

Yes it’s tough. Yes I struggle with it still sometimes. But recognizing that my struggle is a symptom of my falleness rather than a side effect of some flaw in God’s revelation to man goes a LONG way towards helping me get through it! God HAS given us a choice. If we want to do it tonight, we CAN! But we have to be open to the consequences. When you allow the devil to suggest that your struggles are the fault of a flawed church instead of a flawed YOU, then you have already lost most of the battle.

Sorry, and I have to admit I am just not there yet as you are, and God bless you for being so, but viewing my frustrations and the negative impact on my relationship with my wife as a result of my falleness (from Adam and Eve’s days?) does not work. This is the same thing as the Church not addressing or other men not admitting that there are very real conflicts involved here as I’ve tried to lay out in my posts. No, we cannot always “do it tonight” if we are both following NFP and Church teachings. That is the problem - it seems no one else but PM wants to admit that. It does not change Church teachings, but please don’t tell me we are the only ones who feel this. Either everyone else has their heads in the sand or you are all on some higher plane, which I am struggling to get to through prayer. May I suggest you read the thread “Another NFP Question”. I have had a wonderful discussion with a lady where she commented that maybe our struggles now are consequences from our past behaviors. That makes more sense to me.

BTW, I’m 36, married 7+ years, have 2 ‘planned’ kids and 1 ‘oh why not’ on the way. That’s VERY different than an ‘oops’ kid and such blessings have more to do with big NFP families than any perceived ‘failure’ of the method. God pushed us off the fence in a way not experienced by those who attempt to sever the link between unitive and procreative.
Please define or expand on this last line. I have been married for almost 23 years, have four kids from NFP, none are an “oops”, and while always a challenge, all are a blessing. This in no way lessens the struggle I have with Church teachings on sex in between infertile times. Please do not tell me the Church does not instruct we have to use NFP; it does so indirectly and by default. What is “God pushed us off the fence in a way not experienced by those who attempt to sever the link between unitive and procreative”?
 
Penitant, and Searching,

Have either of you tried fasting. PM I know I’ve pestered you about this several times before. But I haven’t heard anything to suggest that you’ve tried it.

And old priest once gave a homily about concupiscence. His Rx for mastering concupiscence was prayer and penance (some form of self mortification). He said to fast on a regular basis.

Best homily I’ve ever heard!

I looked into E5 men and signed up.

Then I looked into the Church’s teachings on vicarious suffering. I began praying the morning offering and inserted that I was offering up my sufferings for the healing of our intimacy.

I am not here to tell you that our physical intimacy is dynamite just yet. But I can tell you that it appears to be working. And that is the hugest relief. Just having that sense that the two of us are headed in the right direction is like having the thorn removed. Yeah sure the wound still hurts, but now it’s healing and getting better every day.
 
Penitant, and Searching,

Have either of you tried fasting. PM I know I’ve pestered you about this several times before. But I haven’t heard anything to suggest that you’ve tried it.

And old priest once gave a homily about concupiscence. His Rx for mastering concupiscence was prayer and penance (some form of self mortification). He said to fast on a regular basis.

Best homily I’ve ever heard!

I looked into E5 men and signed up.

Then I looked into the Church’s teachings on vicarious suffering. I began praying the morning offering and inserted that I was offering up my sufferings for the healing of our intimacy.

I am not here to tell you that our physical intimacy is dynamite just yet. But I can tell you that it appears to be working. And that is the hugest relief. Just having that sense that the two of us are headed in the right direction is like having the thorn removed. Yeah sure the wound still hurts, but now it’s healing and getting better every day.
🙂 I remember you mentioning it, and I responded that I’m already lacking in intimacy, and now you are trying to take my food away too? 😃 Just joking!

Actually my priests advice, after I went to see him that time, was pretty similar, he councilled me to insert a form of mortification into my day by denying myself food…or giving myself less food that normal.
I have adapted this principal. I also say a Rosary every morning, and pray the evening prayers out of the Divine Office every night…

Sorry I forgot to give you feedback in this!

Honestly, I mortify myself a lot…especially at home and especially at night. I practically let my wife sit on the couch when I get home from the office and take over everything…housework, finishing up cooking, dishing up, cleaning, caring for baby untill he is fed, changed, dressed, bathed, and asleep, then I tidy the house, wash dishes, take out the trash and dipaer pale, and some nights wash the kitchen floor…
I also eat less at dinner time now, as instructed by my preist.

But I’m still posting here…
Actually, having said thatn I may cut back. (I have threatened that for a while now, right?)
PM
 
Guess I’ll have to try that - hmm, spiritual help and lose weight, too? And what is E5 Men?

I have not looked at the work I do around the house as mortification, just what I am supposed to do. It bothers me terribly when family members do not do what they are old enought to and should do, but I try to do it quietly. I hate sitting still for too long anyway; I feel guilty. But I also guess I’ll need to find more to do until I fall over because, if not, temptation creeps in very quickly. Seems the harder I try to avoid it, the more it is there.

I very much feel there is an internal struggle I don’t know how to describe - guardian angel fighting for me?- to get my heart and head in the same place to understand and accept all of this.

PM, a comment you made earlier struck me last night, about how the Church ignores mens’ feelings on this whole issue. Not sure how to articulate this - I guess I’m trying to think that surely the Church must have considered these emotional effects on men, but she (Church) cannot directly address it because it would open pandora’s box to making or defining exceptions, which then condones sin and puts the Church in a contradictory position. So by taking this stance of not addressing it, it very much appears the Church is ignoring the very real feelings and emotions and saying “suck it up” when it may not be the case. OK, yes, pray and fast…

One last note and question stemming from a conversation with someone else - what does the Church say when in extreme cases a couple absolutely cannot have intercourse because a pregnancy could be fatal for the wife? One person hinted their only option would be to abstain from sex completely in their marriage and offer it up. This may well be an area where the Church says “no sex” and leaves it to the individual to fight the fight, and pray God in His ultimate grace understands failure…?
 
I have not looked at the work I do around the house as mortification, just what I am supposed to do. It bothers me terribly when family members do not do what they are old enought to and should do, but I try to do it quietly. I hate sitting still for too long anyway; I feel guilty. But I also guess I’ll need to find more to do until I fall over because, if not, temptation creeps in very quickly. Seems the harder I try to avoid it, the more it is there.
Amen to that brother! Just last night, the first time I slowed down was just after 10 pm. Everyone was asleep…and before I knew it I was flipping through the channels, subconsciously looking for programs showing some skin! I stopped as soon as I realised that, and forecd myself to settle on a very conervative show to watch. So yeah, even if you work untill you almost fall over, the temptations are there…and they are strong! I’ll have to keep going untill I fall into bed, but then I’m a wreck the next day!
Temptation is everywhere and plenty. It really does feel like the more I fight it the harder it gets!
PM, a comment you made earlier struck me last night, about how the Church ignores mens’ feelings on this whole issue. Not sure how to articulate this - I guess I’m trying to think that surely the Church must have considered these emotional effects on men, but she (Church) cannot directly address it because it would open pandora’s box to making or defining exceptions, which then condones sin and puts the Church in a contradictory position. So by taking this stance of not addressing it, it very much appears the Church is ignoring the very real feelings and emotions and saying “suck it up” when it may not be the case. OK, yes, pray and fast…
Yeah, I also don’t quite know how to articulate what I’m feeling, it’s more just ramblings about my very subjective feelings on the subject. But I think you are right.

It’s one of two things, in my opinion: Iether they honestly do not know what married men go through, since they are celebate, not married and married men don’t talk enough about it…or, they cannot say any more, because they will open pandora’s box on the subject.
Either way, Catholic men are on the short end of that stick. Are they maybe choosing to keep quiet about it for the greater good? So, can one argue that since the Church chooses the lesser of two evils in this case, can we, as married Cahtolics do the same? No, that’s just crazy talk, and I have no proof.
One last note and question stemming from a conversation with someone else - what does the Church say when in extreme cases a couple absolutely cannot have intercourse because a pregnancy could be fatal for the wife? One person hinted their only option would be to abstain from sex completely in their marriage and offer it up. This may well be an area where the Church says “no sex” and leaves it to the individual to fight the fight, and pray God in His ultimate grace understands failure…?
I know of the other thread, but the posts are too long for me to follow through my work day! 🙂
In such a scenario, I have to believe in God’s eternal mercy and His love and compassion and understanding, but when I spoke to my priest about my problems, he said those passages out of the Catechism for emotional issues and stress factors apply only to young teenagers with crazy hormones, and people whose consciences are not totally formed and they are still habitually doing these things, so basically he said, once you know, it’s game over, no exceptions.
I do agree with him to an extent that there shouldn’t be loopholes, but it appears that there a no extenuation circumstances or provisions made at all, even for very difficult circumstances…except pray and fast.
 
This is only my 2nd post but a subject I am very intersted in. On good Friday my wife gave birth to our 6th child, 3rd NFP child in 4 years!! Obviously we have not mastered NFP yet!! We havent done any classes and are just now opening a packet we have had for 4 years! I have listened to Christopher West’s series and do understand the Church’s teachings. I do sympathize with other men on this board as well. I am 37 and have always had a very, very strong sex drive!! It is a huge cross for me to abstain for even over a week! Obviously its been longer than that now due to child birth and will be alot longer!! It seems alot easier for my wife than me! Our form of NFP has been 1-2 days after menstrual, wait at least 14 days after that, then ok from then on. We thought this was a very conservative approach but were proven wrong a third time. My problem is im not yet the man God wants me to be! I still have thoughts of lust for my wife and it is hard not to think about relations with her especially after abstaining for a week or two! For me it seems to build and build with greater instensity. I am going to try and fast like another posted! I need to purify my thoughts and accept my cross. This is the hardest Church teaching for me! Please pray for me!!
 
This is only my 2nd post but a subject I am very intersted in. On good Friday my wife gave birth to our 6th child, 3rd NFP child in 4 years!! Obviously we have not mastered NFP yet!! We havent done any classes and are just now opening a packet we have had for 4 years! I have listened to Christopher West’s series and do understand the Church’s teachings. I do sympathize with other men on this board as well. I am 37 and have always had a very, very strong sex drive!! It is a huge cross for me to abstain for even over a week! Obviously its been longer than that now due to child birth and will be alot longer!! It seems alot easier for my wife than me! Our form of NFP has been 1-2 days after menstrual, wait at least 14 days after that, then ok from then on. We thought this was a very conservative approach but were proven wrong a third time. My problem is im not yet the man God wants me to be! I still have thoughts of lust for my wife and it is hard not to think about relations with her especially after abstaining for a week or two! For me it seems to build and build with greater instensity. I am going to try and fast like another posted! I need to purify my thoughts and accept my cross. This is the hardest Church teaching for me! Please pray for me!!
I will definately pray for you, and congratulations on your little one! 🙂

Thanks for your honesty here!

The thing with NFP is that you need to find a way to p(name removed by moderator)oint your wife’s ovulation.
Counting 14 days is not accurate enough, most women’s cycles differ and even the same woman’s cycle may differ.
You need to get the day of ovulation, by either monitoring mucus, or temperature, and then abstain for another 3 days after that point.
Day 4 after ovulation is good to go.
there are some very knowlegeable people here with regards to NFP, so you will have lots of help to apply NFP accurately.

But thanks for posting your feelings here, you are *not *alone! 🙂

PM
 
Hi there uncleauberon.
Thanks for the post.

I think I may have mentioned this on a post somewhere, but your point reminded me again on this. Actually the choice was not really explained all that clearly. I would have liked more information when I became Catholic on such implications.
Alright - I will agree that often the teachings, are not out in the open “clear”. But once the rules are known they are not ambiguous.
as searching06 has said, if the only choice is between NFP and hell, well then I’ll HAVE to choose it don’t I? I mean, even if I don’t like it, or disagree with it, essentially I’m scared of hell, so I do that they ask. PM
I do sympathize and actually share in so much of the frustration and anxiety that has been expressed.

However, there are three (3) choices amongst to choose here.

1 - Complete abstinence
2 - Using NFP
3 - Embrace freely and often - Face our Fears and let God handle everything

— GULP! —
It’s a tough thing to accept.

We can have a long debate about social and familiar responsibilities - at another time.

We should still admit that the choice for NFP is usually based on a Fear.
  1. Afraid I can’t afford another child
  2. Afraid that I or my wife don’t have the mental or emotional strength to raise a child
  3. Afraid my wife’s health would be damaged (unto death) in pregnancy
  4. Afraid that the child will have defects
The cases 1 and 2 can be solved by giving a child up for adoption.
There is no sin in that.

The Third/Fouth reasons are a tough sell - but it is a choice that requires a great deal of Courage either way — Courage to practice NFP or Courage to attempt to complete a pregnancy.

Let’s all pray that God will give us strength and courage to face our fears and make good choices in our lives (along with the grace to accomplish them).

tjp
 
One last note and question stemming from a conversation with someone else - what does the Church say when in extreme cases a couple absolutely cannot have intercourse because a pregnancy could be fatal for the wife? One person hinted their only option would be to abstain from sex completely in their marriage and offer it up. This may well be an area where the Church says “no sex” and leaves it to the individual to fight the fight, and pray God in His ultimate grace understands failure…?
I’m sure most of the long time CA members know this already but I’ll share it again because I know you are fairly new to the forum. I am in heart failure (I’m only 35) due to congenital heart defects. We have one child and another pregnancy would be fatal for me. We have used NFP for 10 years without pregnancy. We took a class and follow the conservative guidelines. There probably will come a time when we will have to abstain completely -at least for a time because my condition will continue to get worse and I will eventually need a transplant. According to the doctors that should be happening right now but by the grace of God my condition has remained fairly stable over last few years and has not progessed as quickly as they anticipated.
The church does not allow exceptions even for cases such as mine and I accept that. I accept God’s plan for my life whatever that should be. The reality is heart transplants are successful about 50% of the time. There was a time when I was afraid and angry at God but I no longer feel that way. My illness has actually made my hubby and I really see what is most important and brought us closer together through these trials.
I’ve been reading your posts. Even from when you started here you heart has began to soften. Trust that God knows what is best for us even when we can’t see it. I will pray for you.
 
First of all, God bless you and your family.

I sincerely thank you for sharing that with me, and also your observation that my heart has begun to softern. I’m trying, and it is hard to see for oneself sometimes. I’m having a hard enough time wrapping my brain around where we are now let alone having to even consider complete abstinence. But I also have to share that because of where God has me going, it is not beyond the realm of possibility. The only peace, and it is oddly peace, is that I have finally accepted God’s plan for me, so I must accept whatever that brings.

I will keep you all in my humble prayers, and I humbly ask for yours.

Go bless.
 
Alright - I will agree that often the teachings, are not out in the open “clear”. But once the rules are known they are not ambiguous.

I do sympathize and actually share in so much of the frustration and anxiety that has been expressed.

However, there are three (3) choices amongst to choose here.

1 - Complete abstinence
2 - Using NFP
3 - Embrace freely and often - Face our Fears and let God handle everything

— GULP! —
It’s a tough thing to accept.

We can have a long debate about social and familiar responsibilities - at another time.

We should still admit that the choice for NFP is usually based on a Fear.
  1. Afraid I can’t afford another child
  2. Afraid that I or my wife don’t have the mental or emotional strength to raise a child
  3. Afraid my wife’s health would be damaged (unto death) in pregnancy
  4. Afraid that the child will have defects
The cases 1 and 2 can be solved by giving a child up for adoption.
There is no sin in that.

**So are you saying that a married couple who can’t afford another child if they do get pregnant should give it up for adoption?If you cannot afford another child then you do have just cause to use NFP…
**

The Third/Fouth reasons are a tough sell - but it is a choice that requires a great deal of Courage either way — Courage to practice NFP or Courage to attempt to complete a pregnancy.

Let’s all pray that God will give us strength and courage to face our fears and make good choices in our lives (along with the grace to accomplish them).

tjp
 
Alright - I will agree that often the teachings, are not out in the open “clear”. But once the rules are known they are not ambiguous.

I do sympathize and actually share in so much of the frustration and anxiety that has been expressed.

However, there are three (3) choices amongst to choose here.

1 - Complete abstinence
2 - Using NFP
3 - Embrace freely and often - Face our Fears and let God handle everything

— GULP! —
It’s a tough thing to accept.

We can have a long debate about social and familiar responsibilities - at another time.

We should still admit that the choice for NFP is usually based on a Fear.
  1. Afraid I can’t afford another child
  2. Afraid that I or my wife don’t have the mental or emotional strength to raise a child
  3. Afraid my wife’s health would be damaged (unto death) in pregnancy
  4. Afraid that the child will have defects
The cases 1 and 2 can be solved by giving a child up for adoption.
There is no sin in that.

The Third/Fouth reasons are a tough sell - but it is a choice that requires a great deal of Courage either way — Courage to practice NFP or Courage to attempt to complete a pregnancy.

Let’s all pray that God will give us strength and courage to face our fears and make good choices in our lives (along with the grace to accomplish them).

tjp
Not entirely true.
You mentioned that cases 1 and 2 can be solved by giving up a child for adoption… and that there is no sin in that.:confused:

You are correct that it is not wrong to give a child up for adoption.
However, the catechism states that we are not only responsible for WELCOMING children (ie, being open to life), but also EDUCATING them as well. This requires both a financial and mental/emotional commitment. If you purposefully go into the marital embrace knowing that you cannot EDUCATE your children for whatever reason, then that act itself may be selfish and sinful. (the child is always a gift from God… but the act itself may be selfish)…

A married couple’s decision to use NFP is between them and God alone… so defining the “grave reasons” (as you have numbered out as simply 4 cases) is not prudent.
 
This requires both a financial and mental/emotional commitment. If you purposefully go into the marital embrace knowing that you cannot EDUCATE your children for whatever reason, then that act itself may be selfish and sinful. (the child is always a gift from God… but the act itself may be selfish)…

A married couple’s decision to use NFP is between them and God alone… so defining the “grave reasons” (as you have numbered out as simply 4 cases) is not prudent.
I understand what you mean. I was simplifying the case for “serious reasons”.

The point I was making is that “for the most part” the reasons for using NFP are “fears for the future”.

They may have a high probability of occurring - thus they are “real and valid fears” (concerns). They may very well be very “real serious reasons”.

Yet they are not 100% certainty. There is always room for the miraculous.

I don’t want to get into a debate about social responsibility or what are and are not “serious reasons”. That has been covered on other threads.

My point is that NFP is “a choice”. It may be “the best choice” - but all of the other options are available and carry with them certain consequences. NFP has certain consequences, too.

It is** not** A -NFP or B- Hell

I like to balance my perspective with a clear understanding of my choices.

When I have frustrations or complaints with NFP I don’t compare them to ABC. (aka. option B-Hell)

I compare them to the real alternatives
C-Complete Abstinence or D-Having a baby

Does this perspective make sense ?

Thanks for the temperate response.

tjp
 
I understand what you mean. I was simplifying the case for “serious reasons”.

The point I was making is that “for the most part” the reasons for using NFP are “fears for the future”.

They may have a high probability of occurring - thus they are “real and valid fears” (concerns). They may very well be very “real serious reasons”.

Yet they are not 100% certainty. There is always room for the miraculous.

I don’t want to get into a debate about social responsibility or what are and are not “serious reasons”. That has been covered on other threads.

My point is that NFP is “a choice”. It may be “the best choice” - but all of the other options are available and carry with them certain consequences. NFP has certain consequences, too.

It is** not** A -NFP or B- Hell

I like to balance my perspective with a clear understanding of my choices.

When I have frustrations or complaints with NFP I don’t compare them to ABC. (aka. option B-Hell)

I compare them to the real alternatives
C-Complete Abstinence or D-Having a baby

Does this perspective make sense ?

Thanks for the temperate response.

tjp
Agreed. I understand your point as well and I totally agree regarding the “real” choices… 😉
 
Guys,

My “pushed off the fence” comment is one of the benefits NFP is rarely given credit for. Our culture today considers children to be like trophies: a couple are good, a bunch is clutter. It’s hard to decide to go for more beyond two. It is expensive, makes car choices and vacations tough, college costs get terrifying, etc…

This is the rationale many folks have for quitting at one or two. It had that pull on us too. But there was a difference. We use NFP. We were forced to think about it for a few days each month. Those who do NOT give anything up (contraceptives and/or masturbation), are never forced to reflect on their choice. In this way, using NFP for avoidance is kind of like fasting; you give up something that is good for the sake of Christ and being closer to Him. That required sacrifice combined with the desire for sexual intimacy God built into us is His ordinary means for making us reconsider. When you shortcut it, you cut God out of your marriage, intentionally or not.

I don’t know how to convey head knowledge without coming off as if I’ve got it all nailed down. I still have a hard time with the abstinance too. I just had a realization that it is SUPPOSED to be difficult - just like any other life choice that requires moral courage.

Black Jacque, My priest also recommended E5men.org! But I haven’t done it yet, and it’s been probably a YEAR since he recommended it… Thanks for the reminder, I think :o .
 
My problem is im not yet the man God wants me to be! I still have thoughts of lust for my wife and it is hard not to think about relations with her especially after abstaining for a week or two!
No. You’re problem is not that you lust for your wife. Your problem is God gave you a desire for your wife, and our culture has convinced you into thinking that it is evil. You run around with your tail between your legs and appologize for being a man.

That priest, when he gave his homily on concupiscence, he explained that through prayer and penance you would gain a clearer vision. I am here to tell you that this priest was RIGHT ON.

Your desire for your wife is GOOD get that through your head. Once you accept that, then you will find yourself headlong into arguements with your wife when she acts like you have a problem controlling your libido.

One man posted here a quote from his wife as she responded to his attempts to woo her. She said something to the effect, “what’s wrong with you.”

I posted what I thought he should have responded. A rather empassioned response countering his wife, telling her that she was the one with the problem. I was sure that I would generate flames from the other women on the board. To my surprise many women quoted my post and told the O.P. to heed this advise!

Sex has risks for women. Pregnancy is not always enjoyable. Women need to know that when they are taking those risks it is for something so great that the risk is worthwhile. It isn’t just to satisfy your selfish apetites. It is to strengthen the marriage.

When a man gets into porn, masturbation, and affairs, his actions say, “My apetite is paramount, I must satisfy my apetite, even if it contradicts my vow of fidelity.”

A pure man who avoids all those pitfalls, by his actions says, “our embrace is about us, not just me. So if your not part of it, then I would rather go without, no matter how hellish that may be.”
 
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