NFP and men's complaints

[Ray_Scheel]

Not sure why most people on these forums who do not “know” me mistake me as a man:shrug: but that’s ok. I am a woman

I’ll field that - you can “think” and “talk” like a guy does as if it comes naturally. Took me a while to catch on as well, and I try not to presume without evidence to support. I don’t “know” you well enough to know your educational background, but unless you came from a family where you were had a slew of brothers and you had to be tom-boyish to fit in with the pack, I’d bet your training is in an analytical, male-dominate field (e.g. engineering or statistics).

 

[searching06]

Should a morbidly overweight person simply quit eating forever? Or do they merely need to fix an unhealthy attitude towards food?

NFP made me wait when we judged it not the time for another child. Somehow in the process this sacrifice of frequency helped move me away from a sex attitude of ‘getting off’ to one of making love. I’m not eloquent with words, but hopefully you can see a difference between the two concepts!

PenitentMan, masturbation of any sort moves you back into the mode of getting off instead of making love. And when it becomes habit, it damages your psychological ability to have a meaningful love-making session even when the situation is right. Christopher West can probably explain why better than I can. But remember that it isn’t supposed to be either procreative OR unitive, it is supposed to be BOTH. Every time. Some folks think procreative means a baby comes from it, but it really just means that you aren’t taking the pleasure of sex and simultaneously taking action to deprive it of its life-giving power. All contraceptive methods and forms of masturbation do this.

How does the life-giving power of sex not mean a baby comes from it, even just potentially so?

Another poster nailed it. You can avoid frustration simply by reminding yourself that NFP isn’t forcing you to avoid sex right now. You are avoiding sex because you have discerned that the time isn’t right for another child right now. The choice of severing the unitive from the procreative simply doesn’t exist. Breaking God’s law is like breaking the law of gravity: you can’t do it. You can only suffer the consequences of trying!

I’ll have to respectfully disagree, or at least question the train of thought here. Avoid being frustrated by *simply telling myself *that NFP isn’t forcing us to not have sex? Maybe it is splitting hairs or semantics. I’ll grant that it is not solely NFP that keeps us from making love, but there is nothing simple about it nor do I believe it is that simple (then again, maybe practice makes perfect). It is very much, however, a combination of following Church teachings on our sexual behavior and NFP. Really, it is Church teachings not NFP which restrict sexual intimacy between a husband and wife. So, yes, we made a decision to follow both NFP and Church teachings; the combination of the two, our decision or not, by default “forces” or “enforces” not having sex/making love. I see this as being no different than saying you cannot separate unitive and procreative - they are one and the same. Either we choose to strictly follow Church teachings, which necessitates NFP vs contraception, plus not engage in other acts in between infertile times as well, or we do not. Either we are going to do our best to be good practicing Catholics or we are not. I am struggling to find an analogy. It is kind of like the Church says, “Well, here are the rules; follow them or you get eternal damnation, but, oh, that’s not our fault.” Or the Church figuratively throwing its hands over its ears going “la la la, I can’t hear you.” I would hope that neither the Church nor any individuals honestly think that the consequences, results, or effects of sincerely though frustratingly trying to adhere to Church teachings on sex are simple, or that such effects are not very real, including the effect on intimacy and a relationship. With all that said, I am with PennitantMan - we do our best day by day and keep praying for strength and understanding.

 

[angiegirl67]

I sometimes wonder if this line of thought comes from a I have to have “it” whatever 'it" is right now. That to delay any sort of gratification will kill me or reduce my liberties. People we are talking about delaying intercourse for a period of time not forever. It is sort of sounding animistic like we are unable to delay gratifications because we say we have to have it now… Whatever it is …a new house, a new car, a big screen, sex. We all have a control mechanism in us that is what makes us human. Yes, this is spoken by a women and I know this is a men’s complaint area but having to wait in most cases 100 hrs a month is really not that long. (I understand in some cases it is longer) I don’t mean to offend just a thought.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Really, it is Church teachings not NFP which restrict sexual intimacy between a husband and wife.

The Catholic Church does not have (or want) the right or the power to restrict sexual intimacy between husband and wife. Only husband and wife, acting in unity, can agree to restrict their sexual intimacy. The Church does not have a fundamental problem if you want to do ‘it’ every day. What the Catholic Church is ‘restricting’, through its teaching of the will of God, is the selfish separation of the act from one of its natural purposes.

There appears to be an inherent assumption that something MUST be used, NFP or ABC. That has never been taught by the Church, only by secular society, which (excluding NFP) has bombared us with messages since childhood that it is irresponsible not to use Artificail Birth Control.

 

[uncleauberon]

I’ll have to respectfully disagree, or at least question the train of thought here. Avoid being frustrated by *simply telling myself *that NFP isn’t forcing us to not have sex? … . It is kind of like the Church says, “Well, here are the rules; follow them or you get eternal damnation, but, oh, that’s not our fault.” Or the Church figuratively throwing its hands over its ears going “la la la, I can’t hear you.” I would hope that neither the Church nor any individuals honestly think that the consequences, results, or effects of sincerely though frustratingly trying to adhere to Church teachings on sex are simple, or that such effects are not very real, including the effect on intimacy and a relationship. With all that said, I am with PennitantMan - we do our best day by day and keep praying for strength and understanding.

I sympathize with your feelings and share in your prayers.

The teachings are pretty simple and clear.

I agree that it is often difficult to internalize them as my own and accept them.

My feelings, emotions and concupiscence keeps getting in my way. I fight it the best I can. I don’t always win.

You are right about all of this …

But - we must still admit this is by choice !

No one forced me to be Catholic - or forced me to accept the truth about Christ and his church. No one forced me to get confirmed in my Faith.

All further choices spring from this root…

As this thread originated — “Complaints about NFP by Men”

I must realize that my “complaints” are actually my personal “difficulties” achieving the goal within the framework that I impose upon myself.

Furthermore - the difficulties are “real” in that they are “real emotions” and “feelings”. In relation to “self-control”.

Do any of us admit that we actually have a difficult time with the “actions” or “in-actions”. - Certainly I hope that none of us feel tempted to actually “rape our spouses” {Get professional help if you do}

The only “real” consequences to inaction “physically” are nocturnal emissions.

So we must agree that the “real” playing field with these complaints is in the “emotional” and “spiritual” arena.

No ?

I do understand your frustration - I am merely trying to help your perspective.

God Bless

 

[vluvski]

I’d bet your training is in an analytical, male-dominate field (e.g. engineering or statistics).

I bet you figured that out without cheating and looking at my profile. I’m a chemical engineer:thumbsup:

 

[kage_ar]

You might find Jimmy Akin’s entry on Temptation and NFP interesting over at www.jimmyakin.org

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I bet you figured that out without cheating and looking at my profile. I’m a chemical engineer:thumbsup:

I can’t say I’d never looked at your profile before, but I don’t recall peeking before you mentioned that the best clue was on your profile.

 

[searching06]

The Catholic Church does not have (or want) the right or the power to restrict sexual intimacy between husband and wife. Only husband and wife, acting in unity, can agree to restrict their sexual intimacy. The Church does not have a fundamental problem if you want to do ‘it’ every day. What the Catholic Church is ‘restricting’, through its teaching of the will of God, is the selfish separation of the act from one of its natural purposes.

This is exactly what I was trying to explain. OK, so the Church literally “does not have the right or power” and the husband and wife do make the final decision with free will. That is a given. But you cannot say that the Church does not restrict sexual intimacy/acts through its teachings if, in following those teachings, a couple cannot engage in sexual acts other than intercourse without falling afoul of those teachings and into sin. The Church has to accept responsibility for its teachings just as the couple has to accept responsibility for their actions. I’m not talking sex just for sex or not being able to hold off on “doing it” for immediate gratification (which this world all too readily pushes in everything); I’m talking a closeness from sexual and physical intimacy when intercourse is not an option. I debate whether that in itself is selfish if it brings a couple closer, as I feel it can and does. That is what I have to keep praying about - if it is just my feeling and am I so wrong in it because I miss my wife so much. And I know you can say intercourse is always an option, but again, if a couple cannot afford more children, and if they follow Church teachings, it is not always an option. Unless you go the route of, in “doing it every day” we just throw caution, good sense, and our responsibility to the wind and take the position of “whatever happens, happens”. Now that would become sex for selfishness sake.

There appears to be an inherent assumption that something MUST be used, NFP or ABC. That has never been taught by the Church, only by secular society, which (excluding NFP) has bombared us with messages since childhood that it is irresponsible not to use Artificail Birth Control.

Maybe I did not explain correctly. *Something must *be used if a couple’s decision is to not have children. Again, if a couple cannot afford to have more children, as we cannot, then our only two choices are ABC which is against Church teachings (and we completely agree) and not open to life at all, or we use NFP. There is no other option - it is one or the other; so yes, something must be used. Again, as you present it, it is as if the Church is not accepting responsibility for the reality its teachings. Maybe the Church does not directly teach couples must choose NFP (since it cannot advocate ABC), but it does, in fact, leave no choice.

 

[searching06]

I sympathize with your feelings and share in your prayers.

The teachings are pretty simple and clear.

I agree that it is often difficult to internalize them as my own and accept them.

My feelings, emotions and concupiscence keeps getting in my way. I fight it the best I can. I don’t always win.

You are right about all of this …

But - we must still admit this is by choice !

Everything is absolutely by choice - that darned free will thing. But choices have consequences, effects, results, whatever. If someone is put into a position where there are two (NFP or ABC) or maybe even only one choice (NFP since the Church cannot advocate ABC) - as in the case of following Church teachings or not, which is the same as taking hell and sin, or not - then there really is no choice. The only choice remaining may well be the right and holy thing to do, but it is no less difficult to accept and understand. I cannot believe for a minute the Church does not understand that.

No one forced me to be Catholic - or forced me to accept the truth about Christ and his church. No one forced me to get confirmed in my Faith.

All further choices spring from this root…

As this thread originated — “Complaints about NFP by Men”

I must realize that my “complaints” are actually my personal “difficulties” achieving the goal within the framework that I impose upon myself.

Furthermore - the difficulties are “real” in that they are “real emotions” and “feelings”. In relation to “self-control”.

Do any of us admit that we actually have a difficult time with the “actions” or “in-actions”. - Certainly I hope that none of us feel tempted to actually “rape our spouses” {Get professional help if you do}

I guess I am not understanding. The difficulties in actions and inactions are some of what the posts are about. I readily admit I have difficulty, which is why I am looking for answers, help, and prayers.

The only “real” consequences to inaction “physically” are nocturnal emissions.

So we must agree that the “real” playing field with these complaints is in the “emotional” and “spiritual” arena.

No ?

I do understand your frustration - I am merely trying to help your perspective.

Greatly appreciated. I’m not trying to pick fights, just trying to get someone to admit besides me the inconsistencies - though probably correct - in the arguments.

God Bless

 

[MysticalMan]

I am not really sure if this has anything to do with “The Church” per se. Face it, it is darn hard to raise a family of ten or fifteen. We can’t all just do it whenever we please. Even if we could, you have that 6 week period after childbirth that restricts sexual intercourse, take that times ten kids that is 60 weeks that are off limits!

that is 15 months!
So you are restricted in one way or another way, Each couple has to decide that. I am not a proponent of ABC, but I can understand why that could scare people away from NFP. MOST not all of course, couples who advertise the fact that use NFP, have close to ten kids. Not a good advertisement for people who think it doesn’t work! LOL

 

[searching06]

Funny you should say that people who advertise they use NFP have close to ten kids. We have four; two couples who are some of our best friends have four and six respectively. When we were all younger and the kids were too, we joked we needed a parade permit to get around. Once when we all got together, we had two pregnant wives and at least three strollers and were crossing the street downtown - what a scene!

And my mom always said, “You know what you call people who use the rhythm method? Parents!” (Granted, it is NFP, not rhythm, but I got the point).

 

[searching06]

I am curious as I participate in these posts and continue to try to learn and understand: it seems that the posts/threads I have come upon all talk about how it is the man who is sex-driven and unhappy. Are there any couples out there where it is the opposite? That the man is saying, “Honey, you know we can’t do that now” and it is the wife who is frustrated and tempted and unhappy?

 

[Black_Jaque]

Searching,

Oh yeah. Among NFP couples there are marriages where the wife wants to get pregnant but the husband says “NO WAY”. Just watch these boards you’ll see it from time to time.

I think for many men the tough part isn’t the abstaining - the tough part is when after you’ve abstained you’re ready to cut loose, but your wife ain’t.

Of course, you know me, that ain’t NFP’s fault it’s the wife’s fault!

 

[pumpkinbeast]

I am not married, a woman, and in no way experienced in this area, but a thought occurred to me: NFP allows you to avoid pregnancy while still accepting God’s two-fold purpose of sex AND to have sex. Think about it: if a woman was unable to tell when she was fertile or not, if it was actually impossible, not just tricky, as it is for some women now, and you couldn’t have children, you would have to abstain completely. So, which is more difficult, abstaining completely, or getting to enjoy sex and its unitive benefits during infertile time?

Searching, I’ve been following your posts, and I just wanted to say, you sound like an incredible man, who desires sex in such an unselfish way, for the closeness to your wife, and yet also desires to understand and follow God’s will for him. Keep it up!!! We all have our crosses, and this seems to be yours, but your reward will be great in heaven!

 

[PennitentMan]

Hi there.

I avoided the board for a day or so, and boy did this thread grow!

I so totally agree with everything you say, searching06.

I did mention to a priest about our lack of sex and intimacy; he said we should talk and pray and decide what is best for us, but basically insinuated we should not be having sex that infrequently, especially to where it is causing so much stress between us.

My priest said much the same thing, except he didn’t mention the “decide what is best for us” thing…he just said, pray and talk.

But then that almost begs the question, what is the worse sin: me falling into sin on my own as a man, or my wife and I being sexually intimate in other ways between infertile times? Well, sin is sin, and I would never force my wife into anything or even ask.

I feel the same here too. I have been at this crossroads…is there a “Lesser Evil” to choose? If I force my wife into something sinful, to me that’s even worse…

So it again goes to the question: does the Church expect couples (or at least the man) to be this frustrated sexually in their marriages because the definition of unitive hinges on where the man climaxes and/or if the intent of couples having sex is unitive or for pleasure?
Not trying to “stir the pot or the post”, but my conflict with this is rising for some reason.

Mine too! It really feels like the married man is at the short end of this stick and they do not care about his feelings. It may sound harsh, but I really do wonder why. I think not enough thought has been given to this, and when they do, they do not have all the information required to make descisions or judgements. And besides, men are tough, it will be good for their spiritual growth, they can take it…(sarcasm)

With all that said, I don’t know if I mentioned it in the other post, but with prayer, there is an odd inner peace and acceptance slowly growing - I’m not completely there or at the level others apparently are in this - even if I do not understand it all in the least. And here I will ask for prayers.

Once again I agree that I feel the same. Inner peace and acceptance is dawning, but honestly, the only reason it is dawning is because together with it, it’s dawning on me that there is no other way. The right people do not listen to us men when we speak up, or they listen, but they just address the symptoms and not the underlying problem. They respond with standarized answers: pray, communicate, trust, be chaste, etc and men are being alienated on the process.

So, my inner-peace is more like inner-resignation because it will never change and nothing I seem to do help. We are destined to remain in this state of frustration. So, for he sake of my immortal soul, I sacrifice my mental health and am resigned to keep bottling up these feelings and frustrations.

Honestly, I think a woman (on her infertile cycle) wrote the sexual rules in the Catechism! - Just kidding!!!
PM

 

[PennitentMan]

I sympathize with your feelings and share in your prayers.
The teachings are pretty simple and clear.
I agree that it is often difficult to internalize them as my own and accept them.
My feelings, emotions and concupiscence keeps getting in my way. I fight it the best I can. I don’t always win.
You are right about all of this …
But - we must still admit this is by choice !
No one forced me to be Catholic - or forced me to accept the truth about Christ and his church. No one forced me to get confirmed in my Faith.
All further choices spring from this root…

Hi there uncleauberon.
Thanks for the post.

I think I may have mentioned this on a post somewhere, but your point reminded me again on this. Actually the choice was not really explained all that clearly. I would have liked more information when I became Catholic on such implications. I could have gone through all this research and isues long ago, sorted it all out and be okay with it when I got confirmed. Instead, I now sit with all of these issues whilst trying to remain a good and faithful Catholic. that in itself complicates things tremendously, and, as searching06 has said, if the only choice is between NFP and hell, well then I’ll HAVE to choose it don’t I? I mean, even if I don’t like it, or disagree with it, essentially I’m scared of hell, so I do that they ask.
PM

 

[PennitentMan]

I am not married, a woman, and in no way experienced in this area, but a thought occurred to me: NFP allows you to avoid pregnancy while still accepting God’s two-fold purpose of sex AND to have sex. Think about it: if a woman was unable to tell when she was fertile or not, if it was actually impossible, not just tricky, as it is for some women now, and you couldn’t have children, you would have to abstain completely. So, which is more difficult, abstaining completely, or getting to enjoy sex and its unitive benefits during infertile time?

I actually mentioned this in post #21 of this thread:

“I fall into the category of men who don’t really like NFP.
But, I do realise it’s a tool and without NFP things would be much worse…like no intimacy at all, most probably.
So, I think as a Catholic, NFP is a useful tool for couples to use.”

It’s the best we have…and we have to accept it, there is no other choice.

 

[manualman]

Believe me, I hear you guys. But I still don’t think you realize the extent to which you continue to view sexuality as 2007 Americans instead of timeless catholics. (Not to say I’ve conquered those beasties myself, mind you!)

You talk as if the Judeo Christian teaching on sexuality is arbitrary and unsupported. In reality, the modern American notion of sex separated from fertility is the bizarre, unnatural notion. As far back as the old testament (Onan’s sin), God has revealed to us the immorality of taking the pleasure of sex while rejecting the procreative. Good luck finding ANY support for masturbation or contraception in Christendom prior to about 1900. Teaching on Chastity is not speculation, it is revelation.

Yes it’s tough. Yes I struggle with it still sometimes. But recognizing that my struggle is a symptom of my falleness rather than a side effect of some flaw in God’s revelation to man goes a LONG way towards helping me get through it! God HAS given us a choice. If we want to do it tonight, we CAN! But we have to be open to the consequences. When you allow the devil to suggest that your struggles are the fault of a flawed church instead of a flawed YOU, then you have already lost most of the battle.

BTW, I’m 36, married 7+ years, have 2 ‘planned’ kids and 1 ‘oh why not’ on the way. That’s VERY different than an ‘oops’ kid and such blessings have more to do with big NFP families than any perceived ‘failure’ of the method. God pushed us off the fence in a way not experienced by those who attempt to sever the link between unitive and procreative.

 

[searching06]

Hi there.

I avoided the board for a day or so, and boy did this thread grow!

I so totally agree with everything you say, searching06.

My priest said much the same thing, except he didn’t mention the “decide what is best for us” thing…he just said, pray and talk.

I feel the same here too. I have been at this crossroads…is there a “Lesser Evil” to choose? If I force my wife into something sinful, to me that’s even worse…

Mine too! It really feels like the married man is at the short end of this stick and they do not care about his feelings. It may sound harsh, but I really do wonder why. I think not enough thought has been given to this, and when they do, they do not have all the information required to make descisions or judgements. And besides, men are tough, it will be good for their spiritual growth, they can take it…(sarcasm)

I tend to think that it is not so much that the Church does not care about men’s feelings so much as it is how can they say for us to do otherwise, because that is condoning sin? I most definitely believe, though, that it has to be one of the most unaddressed areas in these teachings. Like I said, it seems the Church throws her hands over her ears. Now I have not yet gotten anything from Christopher West or Liturgy of the Body; another person mentioned West’s “Naked Without Shame” and it helped her view sex differently for and with her husband.

Once again I agree that I feel the same. Inner peace and acceptance is dawning, but honestly, the only reason it is dawning is because together with it, it’s dawning on me that there is no other way. The right people do not listen to us men when we speak up, or they listen, but they just address the symptoms and not the underlying problem. They respond with standarized answers: pray, communicate, trust, be chaste, etc and men are being alienated on the process.

So, my inner-peace is more like inner-resignation because it will never change and nothing I seem to do help. We are destined to remain in this state of frustration. So, for he sake of my immortal soul, I sacrifice my mental health and am resigned to keep bottling up these feelings and frustrations.

I can only hope that with prayer (I still have difficulty talking to God about sex, even asking for a better relationship and marital chastity), that I will come to understand, and if not understand, then to accept this as a cross. That completely stinks (insert different word), but resignation sounds about right. Go read the thread “Another NFP Question”.

Honestly, I think a woman (on her infertile cycle) wrote the sexual rules in the Catechism! - Just kidding!!!
PM

I have to thank you for your honesty as well. While I cannot completely knock the “we’ll get there with prayer”, it is no less difficult. And I am finding a conversion in life which I hope will bear fruit in this struggle. Meanwhile, I struggle with struggling.