NFP culture within the Church

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Dr Paul:
While I agree with the current discussion emphasizing that it is wrong to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality, I think some clarification needs to be made over what circumstances justify its use. Below is a post that I made previously on this topic.

For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness, but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. (CCC #2368)
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Thanks for the CCC reference. I see the word ‘grave’ being used, but the CCC reference uses the word ‘just’. Not the same thing. --KCT
 
I found the EWTN responses from Fr. Hogan very disturbing. Who can seriously make sense of what he was saying. This is the type of teaching, I think, that has gotten us in trouble. This subtle, nuanced, teaching that can be used to support every interpretation creates disunity and confusion. When will we get real leadership and clear teaching in the Church.
 
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puppylove:
I began practicing NFP just last month. I was one of those Catholics who thought that I was not sinning using contraceptives. About 6 months ago, I began practicing my faith like a Catholic should. I started following all the teachings of the Catholic Church including the one on contraception. My husband (45 years old) and I (37 years old) are both in our second marriages. Our children (23, 18, & 13) are from our first marriages with little or no moral and zero financial support from our ex-spouses and are all still very dependent on us. We lived in mobile home for the first 2 years of our marriage, then built a house 2 years ago for obvious reasons. My husband’s pay was cut back recently and we are going through some tough financial times. We have agreed not to have any more children because of our ages and finances. Of course, if it would happen, we would love this child. My question is, "Am I sinning by using NFP to prevent pregnancy?
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Well, while I think many here might say “yes” I will say that I don’t think so. Like others have said, we need to define “grave reasons”. I, too, am not financially prepared for children. I think it would be very unwise to bring more children into an already taxed household. You are not opposed to life; you are trying to take care of the lives which are already in your care. You are not using artificial contraceptives and would not have an abortion. It is probably safe to say that your other children, and likely your marriage, would suffer if you were to conceive another child, correct? I can’t see how God would condemn this behavior.

Steph
 
Proud2bRC, it is exactly because of what you describe that my husband and I made the decision to not use NFP. The teaching couple that we had talked about not wanting to be the little old family that lived in the shoe, they were very disparaging about family in general. We decided to just go the “let them come as they come” route.

As far as the EWTN Q and A, remember for the most part they are NOT theologians. (Most priests are not.) Several years ago, I got in a discussion with Fr. Torraco (I think that is how you spell his name) about NFP on the Q/A board. He said that using no method was not holy because you were not using your intellect in interacting with the Holy Spirit in your spousal relations. NFP was the only holy approach to intercourse. I don’t agree.

It was at that point that I started reading the answers as those of priests, not those of ones with the absolute correct answer.
 
I also have found at times that the EWTN Q&A board sometimes answers things pretty incompletely…or even incorrectly. Rather than rely on such a board, I would strongly encourage people to use the catechism and Church documents in order to find the truth.
 
I agree that there is a very fine line. We have a very anti-life culture here in America. We beg for debt, yet say no to life. Very backward. I think that using NFP as an in-between step for those that practice contraception is good. I use no method other than faith for my family size, but some of my friends would look at me cross-eyed if I suggested this to them. I approach NFP with them and describe it’s success rate in preventing conception as a way to bridge the gap between birth control and birth-God’s control. I figure better natural than artificial.

Love,
Annie
 
There have been several people in this thread who have shared their belief that the ideal is to not use NFP at all, but rather rely on faith in God’s providence to determine how many children to have. I commend all who have the financial, emotional, and physical capacity to do this. God has truly blessed you!

While I think this is the perfect place to share our personal beliefs and experience, we all need to be careful not to distort or ignore the actual teaching of the Catholic Church. I would very much appreciate learning where the Church teaches us that it is best to ignore our natural signs of fertility. A problem that I see in some of this discussion is a sense that NFP is not fully in line with God’s plan for us, but rather it is a bridge to using no method at all. I have never read this in the Cathechism or any official Church document. If I am missing something, I hope that someone will give me the proper reference. What I have read describes the beauty of God’s plan for welcoming children into our marriages without selfishness. God has given us the capacity to know our fertile and infertile times and thereby participate actively in His plan for us. This does involve using our God-given reason in deciding whether we sincerely feel that we have the financial, emotional and physical capacity to care for another child. God can always veto our decision. Using NFP is not working against God’s plan. If used with the proper motives, whether to acheive or avoid pregnancy, it IS God’s plan.
 
I thank God that we are each given our own free will. I am struggling to reconcile the differences between helpful guidance and “you should bar this cross because I am mentally.” Which is specifically why I chose to become Catholic.

I know many women out their that are really struggling emotionally, and do not need to be guilted into thinking that they are not making enough sacrifices in the matter of childbearing.
I am hearing a lot of us taking for granted how blessed many Married Catholics are, and not taking into consideration the grave circumstance that are beyond our comprehension.

There seems to be a big gaps in the culture of NFP in the Church. The ones who are fine with doing without and the ones who do not have the specific resources, whether financial or spiritual, in their lives to do such. The later should in no way be made to feel that they are less in the Kingdom of God. All have to be careful to talk about this with charity and not pride.

I understand why many priests are not giving straight answers general question because there is not a straight answer that covers all situations. That is why the Church has the language that it does on this subject. “Grave reason” is going to be different at different stages of our informed consciences. The teachings of the Church are not laws but ways of living to help us developed a closer relationship with Jesus and His family.
Would we have judged Mary harshly because she seemed fully capable of having more than one child, not knowing that what God had in store for her or how she lived with in her marriage? We should not assume to have the wisdom to say what God has planned for others or judge why they choose to abstain.
I am afraid we are not far from that tone.
I doubt many people are welling to share their grave reasons with the rest of us because of the lack of compassion that is underlying many of these comments.

I have to say that I did not think I was going to use NFP after I give birth to our baby due in October, mainly because prayer was not as big a part of my life before I got pregnant and I did not think I could handle abstaining without feeling guilty about withholding from my husband. I am starting to understand that this guilt was not from God nor my husband. Now the verse in the Bible that talks about not abstaining from your spouse except for in time of prayer has taken on new and deeper meaning for me. For me these times of abstinence can become a time of deep and meaningful prayer for purity myself and in marriages of all couples and people. I have even heard of married couples abstaining along with newly engaged couples to help them in their prayers for Purity.
I don’t believe this is a contracepting mentality. Our prayers may be the only avenues we have change someone’s mind if that is where they are coming form. I am learning that prayer can be much more affective then words. My husband and I have no limit on how many children we think we are going to have. I did not think this way when we first got married and thought that I would probably need to go through labor first before making that decision. Prayer that focused on the teachings of the Church was the only thing that changed my mind and one of the things I know will sustain me.

I agree that NFP may not be able to stand alone… but should be taught by teachers who can transfer their deep love of Prayer and the integral role it plays in the practice of NFP. We need to be able to live our faith with confidence, even if we make different Godly decision when it comes to our families. I do hope and pray that all people will have a deeper understanding of the heart of Jesus and Mary in these matters and have the faith to live accordingly.
:gopray:
 
Dr Paul, I agree with you. We do not use NFP, however, that does not mean we never would. It simply means that we have never had a serious reason to.

The problem arises in how NFP is used/taught. Is it being used as a contraceptive or a unifying act?

Fertility is a gift from God. He has bestowed on us the most incredible gift…the ability to have children created in His divine image, infused with a soul, a new life to glorify Him. Sexual relations are not simply between a husband and wife. They are between spouses and the Holy Spirit. We are unified with God in some mystical way that allows this possibility of a new soul to be created. Abstinence is seen as a sacrifice, a prayerful union with the cross.

Contrast this to NFP being taught as…this is how not to get pregnant, this is how to achieve pregnancy. You are in control, you are the creator or the “non-creator.” We avoid sex these days because we don’t want anymore children. Or, we need to tonight because we want a baby. This is humanistic contraception posing for what the church teaches.

I hope this explains what we believe. We do not see NFP as inferior to allowing for God’s providence when used in a spiritual way as opposed to humanistic “me-ism.” Nor do we see using God’s providence as inferior to NFP. They are equal because both respect the gift of fertility that God has blessed us with.
 
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familyof8:
The problem arises in how NFP is used/taught. Is it being used as a contraceptive or a unifying act?
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Dh and I have done marriage prep for a while. Sure, using NFP for the right reasons is the goal, but let’s face it . . . w/ so many young couples having no clue what the Church teaches, it’s a blessing to get them to accept NFP at all. Once they accept it, I figure God will touch them and help them to use it in a generous way. Contraception is just so widely accepted . . . if we can get couples to take NFP seriously, in time we can work on the attitude with which they use it. —KCT
 
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KCT:
Dh and I have done marriage prep for a while. Sure, using NFP for the right reasons is the goal, but let’s face it . . . w/ so many young couples having no clue what the Church teaches, it’s a blessing to get them to accept NFP at all. Once they accept it, I figure God will touch them and help them to use it in a generous way. Contraception is just so widely accepted . . . if we can get couples to take NFP seriously, in time we can work on the attitude with which they use it. —KCT
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I totally disagree. If couples understood why the church teaches what it does and emphasized the beauty of the Theology of the Body, then the reason behind NFP would attract more couples and certainly NOT turn anyone away. When it is taught as “Catholic contraception,” why bother? If that contraception is ok, the church is nuts, all other contraception must be ok as well. It is the reason behind NFP that NEEDS to be understood.

This attitude frustrates me so much. It is the equivolent of defending the dumbing down of education, or not teaching proper grammar. Help them rise to the pinnacle, not teach them and leave them in the dump (I can’t think of a better word right now.) They may not understand fully, but maybe it would encourage them to search further on their own. And maybe, just maybe, their faith will be deepened.

Our NFP instructors totally turned us off. It was through our own research that we learned the Theology of the Body. Understanding it is to turn something sensual into something spiritual. Talk about strengthening marriages!!
 
I hope many of us are seeing this and are willing to step up to the plate and be the good Teachers that the proper practic of NFP seems to require.
This may sound odd, but I am a Math Teacher, and I can tell you that this method of teaching people how to do without teaching how to become better thinkers, ie. problem solver (in our case have a better developed conscience) is one of the biggest problems of education today. People want the quick run down and are not willing to take the time to know the deeper meaning behind what they are doing therefore in my opinon are not really learning anything.
I am affraid that is what many out siders to the Catholic Church see. , people doing things without knowing why. From inside I see this as some people not responding to the grace that is poured out on them to give them strength to presue their own continuing education that the Catholic Church has been set up by Jesus to provide.
My own NFP teacher, in marriage prep., raved about Humanae Vitae. However I did not get a chance to read it till after I was married and still have not gotten through it all.
I think the theology of the body should be taught way before we think about getting married, and I encourage all who are reading this to support their local parish in getting good speakers, like Jason Evert, to come and talk about this with our kids. The contraception mentally starts as soon as we start thinking about sex, and as we know this has earlier and earlier in our youngsers.
I think the problem with NFP goes much deeper then our teachers , my own has been trying to get Jason Evert to come speak at our local High School for the last two years, but has not has support. The resources are out there. But I do think we need to pray for the people who are doing the best they can to teach NFP and are not giving up, they need help with the crosses they are barring to help people from commiting mortal sins.
I hope to start a new thread to continue on this:) :gopray:
 
A word of caution. I think that we need to be careful not to judge others without full knowledge of their situation. We can inform them of the way NFP is meant to be used and why, but to look at couples with great spacing between children or without children and judge them is not our place.

Also, I have to add that when people speak of how great NFP is, they are not always speaking of it as a contraceptive. (which it is not) NFP is so much more than a method to avoid pregnancy. It can extemely effectively be used to achieve pregnancy. So don’t judge someone or what they say without first knowing what they mean and where they are coming from. And the answer to give to those who are using it in a wrong manner is loving correction, not ostracism.
 
Trust in Jesus…God will provide. As the father of twelve (12) children I write from experience. God will bless you.
 
I have been watching this thread with some interest for the past couple of days. I have to admit that this subject is very touchy for many of us. I would like to interject some of my thoughts into this conversation and see if we can get some more good discussion going.

My first point concerns those of you who refer to NFP in this manner (I am paraphrasing), “We will only use NFP if we need to.” or “NFP is only to be used for serious reasons.”

My problem with this way of refering to NFP is that it makes it seem like its only purpose is prevention of conception. By speaking of NFP in terms of avoiding only you are inadvertantly putting it on the same plane with all the immoral methods of preventing conception. It is not even in the same league, I assure you.

My contention and (I think some others in this thread) is that NFP is not meant to be just about “prevention” of conception. I am in no way inferring that it cannot be abused; but I am also not saying that nobody should use it just because it can be abused. We don’t stop driving our cars just because some people drive like maniacs, do we?

NFP is a way of life for me and my wife. It entails a constant watching and discerning of God’s will for our life and family. Because we know with reasonable certianty every day where we stand fertility-wise we are better informed about the decisions God is asking us to make that day. This leads to my second point.

I would contend that by tracking your fertility by using NFP every day (except when pregnant, of course!) a couple is actually in a better position than those who “leave it God’s hands”. Let me explain…

In order for an act to be fully human, it must engage both of man’s spiritual capacities, the will and the intellect. Therefore, in order for an act to be fully human, the will and the intellect must be as engaged as possible in the act. Those who practice NFP as a way of life are more fully capable of engaging in the marital act than those who do not. This is because they know with more certainty than those who do not when a conception is more or less likely. Both groups ultimately leave the choice to give life in God’s hands, but those who know from day to day where they are in the fertility cycle can more fully enter into the experience of “willing”, so to speak, a new life into the world with God.

An example from personal experience may be helpful:

My wife and I use NFP all the time (except when she is pregnant). On days that she is very fertile we are forced to ask ourselves, “Are we open to accepting a new life from God today?” and “Do we have any reason to not be today?” This being forced into these questions has driven us right into the arms of God to discern His will for us on a day to day basis.

No doubt, non-NFP couples ask the same questions, but they lack the timely knowledge of the greater or lesser likelihood that the Holy Spirit will be showing up that night. In a sense, non-NFP users are being passive in their response to God’s invitation to enter into communion with him in the marriage act in the fullest possible way. By not using NFP to determine with more clarity the state of fertility that day, non-NFP couples are choosing to be ignorant of information that could inform their intellect and will and help them to perform their marriage act in a more fully human way.

At heart, I believe this is the reason that our Holy Father wants to get NFP into the hands of every married person in the Church. He is not trying to give them an “out” so to speak so that they can contracept if they need to, he is calling all of us to become more fully human and holy and he recognizes that using NFP in a prayerful and sacramental way does make us more human and holy than to not use it.

Before all of the non-NFP users get completely frustrated here, I am not saying that not using NFP is bad. It is good to accept lovingly from God all the children God sends you and if not using NFP is the way you choose to go, more power to you and may God bless you. What I am saying is that you have the opportunity to “kick it up an notch” so to speak. If you are willing to meet the Holy Spirit every day in the charting of your fertility you will experience a much more intense encounter with him when joining him in welcoming your children from his hand. I know this experience first hand because I was able to “will” with my wife and God my children into being. I know the exact night of conception of each of them because of NFP. I was fully conscious of the fact that the Lord was more likely to bless us with babies on those nights and I was intensely engaged in praying that he did so. I hope to do the same for many more children in the future, God willing.

Thank you all and God bless!
 
“In order for an act to be fully human, it must engage both of man’s spiritual capacities, the will and the intellect.”
-Jamie

Why? Are mentally retarded not fully human? How about children who are not able to fully engage the intellect yet. How about Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his son - did he fully understand (intellect) why he was doing this or was he simply going to obey?

“Those who practice NFP as a way of life are more fully capable of engaging in the marital act than those who do not. This is because they know with more certainty than those who do not when a conception is more or less likely. Both groups ultimately leave the choice to give life in God’s hands, but those who know from day to day where they are in the fertility cycle can more fully enter into the experience of “willing”, so to speak, a new life into the world with God.”
-Jamie

So maybe we should change the Our Father to read- Thy/our will be done.

Is the willing for a child of non-NFP couples less of an experience because they don’t know where the woman is in her cycle? What if the act took place on a non-fertile day - would the willing for God to let them concieve be less of an experience? I would think it would be a greater experience of will and hope and of fully engaging in the marital act to think the Holy Spirit was there everytime not just more so on fertile days.
 
*In order for an act to be fully human, it must engage both of man’s spiritual capacities, the will and the intellect."
*
Why? Are mentally retarded not fully human? How about children who are not able to fully engage the intellect yet. How about Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his son - did he fully understand (intellect) why he was doing this or was he simply going to obey?

SmokeBoy, I am not saying that a person has to have a perfectly functioning intellect and will in order to act in a human way. What I am saying is that a person has to fully engage “their” own will and intellect and use all of the knowledge available to them at the time of action. If someone is mentally impaired that means they engage what capacities they have to the best of their abilities. Children, too. We do the best we can with what we have been given. Will and Intellect are gifts from God, but he also expects us to use them for the good to the full extent that we can.

"Those who practice NFP as a way of life are more fully capable of engaging in the marital act than those who do not. This is because they know with more certainty than those who do not when a conception is more or less likely. Both groups ultimately leave the choice to give life in God’s hands, but those who know from day to day where they are in the fertility cycle can more fully enter into the experience of “willing”, so to speak, a new life into the world with God."
-Jamie

So maybe we should change the Our Father to read- Thy/our will be done.

I am not implying that my will overrides God’s will or is contrary to it. What I am saying is that it is our Father’s will that we participate as fully and consciously as we are capable of in the sacrament of marriage. He desires that we actively desire to be blessed with children at certain times of our married life. This implies that we will “will” for them to be born, with Him. This is not wrong, this is the epitome of “Thy will be done”. His will becomes OUR will. NFP couples can will with God’s will with more accuracy than those who do not use NFP.

Is the willing for a child of non-NFP couples less of an experience because they don’t know where the woman is in her cycle? What if the act took place on a non-fertile day - would the willing for God to let them concieve be less of an experience? I would think it would be a greater experience of will and hope and of fully engaging in the marital act to think the Holy Spirit was there every time not just more so on fertile days.

Non-NFP couples willing is not less genuine and authentic, it is less informed. Maybe an analogy would be helpful in helping you to understand my point of view:

Imagine that two men live on an island and the only food to eat is the fish they catch in the lagoon. One man goes fishing every day and spends most of the day waiting for a bite. Sometimes he catches fish and some days he doesn’t. He desires to catch fish every time he goes fishing, but does not always succeed.

The other fellow only goes fishing every couple of days. He spends one hour fishing and catches enough to eat for several days. When he goes fishing, he desires to catch fish as well.

The difference between the two men is that one has knowledge that the other does not; therefore, he is more likely to succeed at catching fish than the other. He knows that the fish come in close to the shore at dawn to eat. So, he does the bulk of his fishing at dawn when he is more likely to catch fish. He can still fish at other times during the day if he likes; fishing is fun, but he knows when the best time to succeed is and uses that knowledge to advantage. He can plan how much fish he needs and when he needs it and can be reasonably sure that he will be provided for.

One day, he notices that the other fellow is fishing for most of the day, every day. He offers to teach him how to fish more efficiently. The first man responds to this offer by saying, “I don’t need to know. I know there are fish in the water; they are always there. I trust God to give me the food he wants me to have, when he wants me to have it. I am fully engaged in my fishing every day and I have great hope that at any moment, I will get a bite!”
 
Jamie- Thank you for the reply. I understand what you are saying. I believe wholeheartedly that we are to cooperate with God’s will for us and that we should use the gifts he has given us. I don’t think your fishing analogy is appropriate though.

I think God asks married couples to come together and bear much fruit. The gift in the marital act is not the knowledge of fertile vs. non-fertile but the child that is created. The intellect comes in when considering how do I feed these gifts God has given me (the child). Here is where your fishing analogy is handy. By using our intellect and our will in cooperation with GOD We will catch plenty of fish and he will bring those into our lives to teach us to catch enough to feed our families.

I think the knowledge of NFP is useful for grave/serious reasons.
 
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