NFP - Is it really natural?

[Pug]

Thanks, but what is the range of % fertile? And how could one elect under those circumstances?

I’m not sure how to answer the first question, having no medical training. I suspect that on certain days of the month, provided there are no medical issues with the couple, that conception is perhaps 30% likely if they have relations. On other days of the month, I suspect conception is more likely nearly 0% if they have relations. I’m guessing, though. I don’t think it is ever 100% that a couple will conceive on a particular day. The sperm could not swim well that day or something. Lots of factors are involved. Nfp is just designed to highlight the most and least likely days. Then the couple makes decisions about which days the wish to have relations.

For your other question, I think you are asking which meaning of the word “elect” I used. I meant “choose”, as in, choose to have relations or choose not to have relations. You are also choosing to have relations at whatever fertility you are at without setting your will against that. (that last phrase is my opinion)

I do agree that sometimes the nfp practitioner seem to be choosing to have relations when there is nearly zero chance of conceiving. This (to me personally) sometimes used to seem like always visiting your friend’s house when you know he won’t be home. I used to find this almost perverse. But this is not really what is happening. They are actually visiting with each other (having relations), and so the visit is legitimate. They are allowing the visit to have its full development that it can. But there is something less than ideal. They are always choosing to visit at a less than perfect time with respect to one aspect of the visit (having a baby). However, it may be a good time to visit for other reasons, so the visit is a good visit, since it is good to visit.:whacky:

Okay, so as you can tell by my previous paragraph, I am not gung-ho about nfp, so I am probably not going to be helpful, but somehow I have accepted the Church teaching on it, nevertheless. It is possible to accept.

 

[renee1258]

Texas, I think your answers can only be answered if you learn NFP in itself.

The fertile phase of a women’s cycle is only about 96 hours, in which 12-24 hours is the life of the egg once released. If there is no conception, the egg “naturally” dies on its own. The 96 hours is calculated doe to the life of the man’s spern which can live up to 5 days in fertile type mucus.

The women’s body created differing types of cerivical mucus at different times in her cycle. When the women is preparing to ovulate she begins to secrete a fertile type mucus on her own with no sexual arrousal, at the peak of this fertile type mucus it is incredibly slippery and lubercant like perfect for the survival of sperm and easy for the little guys to swim up into the women’s uterus and beyond.

Sperm can only survive in this fertile type mucus. Fertile mucus has a different molecular structure then mucus the is created in the infertile phases of a women’s cycle before and after.

Many women already have probably noticed a mucus pattern without knowing what it indicated all of their life, some have even mistaken it as a yeast infection or just though they were “dirty” and needed to be cleaner in the region of the body. Women once learning NFP are upset that this basic knowledge isn;t taught in sex ed, and are angry that we have been forced on the Pill as our only option by reproductive medicine.

So you want rates?

I’ve seen 99% effective rates for avoiding.

But let’s say the couple wants to have a baby. Instead of guessing or trying for cycles on end with no luck, couples can p(name removed by moderator)oint when a woman ovulates and get pregnant faster. And if she charts her cycle and her cervical mucus she can p(name removed by moderator)oint any issues of infertility also with her gynocologist.

When there is no issue of infertility, couples in a given cycle who are trying to have a baby get pregnant 70% of the time compared to 25%. As someone who has trouble getting pregnant, I have to admit I wouldn’t of had my three children if I didn’t know when I ovulated.

Think about this, if contraception is going to fail it is going to only fail in that 96 hour period of fertility. But contraception manufactures can base their rates calculating failure on phases of a women’s cycle when she can’t even get pregnant. If we want true failure rates of contraception, they consider that.

 

[fix]

Thanks but again this allows man to willfully and intently engage in acts which are designed to avoid procreation.

Avoiding conception may or may not be moral. How it is avoided may or may not be moral.

This allows the actions (means) and the will (intent) to be free of moral review.

I do not think so. NFP used with a good intent is be definition a good means. Why is it a good means? It is good because the marital act is unaltered and not frustrated in any way.

It also redefines contraception as these actions to prevent pregnancy must be ruled as not contraceptive. But I thank you for your help.

Contraception is more than preventing pregnancy. Contraception is violating the marital act. It is preventing conception by separating the marital act and intentionally pushing God aside.

 

[renee1258]

Thanks but again this allows man to willfully and intently engage in acts which are designed to avoid procreation.

*Something also to consider, when a woman breastfeeds, her body suppresses the hormones the stimulate ovulation. Many women who exclusivly breastfeed do not ovulate or have a period for months even beyond a year. Yet, couples have plenty of sex in this time frame. **Are they willfully and intently avoiding procreation? ***
*Women’s bodies are designed for precreation, but pregnancy, birth, and raising a baby/children can take a toll on that same body. Sometimes other factors are involved outside the body that are serious or even grave, but it does not mean the husband and wife should be denied as allowed by her natural body to have sex without procreating. *

 

[kmeg]

If we are to avoid everything unnatural, why is it the Catholic church has no rulings about introducing nicotene, caffeine, and alcohol. I know a fair amount of Catholics that socially drink and smoke including priests. It seems to me that these affect the bodies natural functions as well. Why are they acceptable?

 

[renee1258]

Sex is the outward expression of the Sacrament of Marriage. It is a form of communicating love to one’s husband or wife. One must give all of themselves in marriage. It is like saying, I want sex but I don’t want you. My husband has to accept my sexuality and vice versa. Our sexuality is a gift reserved for God’s grace

The items you discuss have nothing to do with a Sacrament, but we are to care and not abuse our bodies either. But such does not rise to an issue concerning any of God’s Sacraments for us. It is interesting that secular society does everything in our power not to smoke, but allows to do everything unnatural to our bodies even to dispose the living byproducts (unborn children) of recreational sex.

 

[setter]

If we are to avoid everything unnatural, why is it the Catholic church has no rulings about introducing nicotene, caffeine, and alcohol.

We are to automatically avoid anything that is intrinsically evil, as it violates the tenants of natural moral law.

I know a fair amount of Catholics that socially drink and smoke including priests. It seems to me that these affect the bodies natural functions as well. Why are they acceptable?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

If we are to avoid everything unnatural, why is it the Catholic church has no rulings about introducing nicotene, caffeine, and alcohol. I know a fair amount of Catholics that socially drink and smoke including priests. It seems to me that these affect the bodies natural functions as well. Why are they acceptable?

Natural on these threads usually fails to separate “Natural Moral Law” verses “Natural”. The earlier involves the church interpretation of God’s plan for man based on the innate makeup of humans. The later involves what we find in Nature. So a chemical occurring in nature (marijuana) is natural by second definition, and “morally neutral” by first definition. However smoking excessive amounts of the chemical thus having family, work, or legal problems maybe natural by first definition but “immoral or unnatural” by second definition. Clear? The failure in the latter case to provide for the family, be obedient to proper authority is the defined “unnatural act” via Natural Moral Law

 

[kmeg]

So are birth control pills acceptable for teenage girls with bad menstural cramps provided they are not sexually active? Then they would be no different than other forms of medication, correct?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

So are birth control pills acceptable for teenage girls with bad menstural cramps provided they are not sexually active? Then they would be no different than other forms of medication, correct?

If you said “Can this drug known to prevent conception be used in a person who is not sexually active?” the answer is Yes. Since the person is not sexually active there is no “birth control” the person is in a period of celibacy

 

[renee1258]

So are birth control pills acceptable for teenage girls with bad menstural cramps provided they are not sexually active? Then they would be no different than other forms of medication, correct?

Acutally this would be bad medicine. Teenage girls have not finished puberty even though they have started their periods their bodies are still developing. Most girls start their periods when they have reached 17% body fat, but regular cycles do not start until a women is at 23% body fat. Some of this body fat comes from developing breast size and tissue, and the Pill halts the homornes that allows a women to fully sexually develop. That is why researchers are finding a correlation to the Pill and breast cancer.

The idea of shutting down one’s hormonal development sounds very extreme for cramps. I now it is common to prescribe the Pill for this. amd shame for doctors not to care about our reproductive health. Sometimes cramping or irregular cycles might be a a sign of something else going on in the body. If cramps are that severe further medical tests should be done, and actually NFP charting could very well help diagnose the underlying condition. The non-religious site “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” goes into detail how doctors use NFP to help with their medicine.

 

[noma]

I believe that NFP is just as natural as contraception, and that contraception is a form of Natural Family Planning.

As contraception can be used in accord with our nature, when it is, it is natural. This can be done within the family, and involves planning children, so all non-abortificant contraceptive methods are NFP.

Further, since contraception can fail, the only informed position to take concerning contraception is to be open to having children.

No matter how you look at it, contraception is a part of Natural Family Planning, not yet recognized by the whole of the Church.

And I think both are morally neutral. But if one is wrong, likely both are.

 

[church_mouse]

I believe that NFP is just as natural as contraception, and that contraception is a form of Natural Family Planning.

As contraception can be used in accord with our nature, when it is, it is natural. This can be done within the family, and involves planning children, so all non-abortificant contraceptive methods are NFP.

Further, since contraception can fail, the only informed position to take concerning contraception is to be open to having children.

No matter how you look at it, contraception is a part of Natural Family Planning, not yet recognized by the whole of the Church.

And I think both are morally neutral. But if one is wrong, likely both are.

If you believe both are morally neutral, then why not just use the church sanctioned one? Just curious.

 

[noma]

If you believe both are morally neutral, then why not just use the church sanctioned one? Just curious.

This because I find that artificial birth control is a more effective method of natural family planning than the basil method.

 

[Karin]

This because I find that artificial birth control is a more effective method of natural family planning than the basil method.

well i hope that you are not using the Pill as your choice of birth control, because then you may be also having an abortion every once in a while (the pill does cause abortions)
so know you can lump another sin ontop of the first one

 

[church_mouse]

This because I find that artificial birth control is a more effective method of natural family planning than the basil method.

All the stats that I have seen indicate that NFP is just as or more effective than ABC. From personal experience and observation, ABC can cause subtle ( or not so subtle) damage to marriages.

omsoul.com/pamview.php?idnum=145

 

[maryjk]

This because I find that artificial birth control is a more effective method of natural family planning than the basil method.

Artificial birth control is NOT natural family planning. It may be more effective, but it is not natural.

And I have never heard of the “Basil Method.” Or are you talking about just taking your basil temp, no mucus checks?

 

[Liberalsaved]

As I read posts regarding Natural Family Planning, it occurs to me that NFP is anything but natural. Temperature taking, mucus checking, avoiding sex on certain predetermined days…what is natural about any of this?

I have to admit that I never used NFP; and from what I’ve learned here, I never would have. It sounds completely unnatural to me!

Because thinking is natural for human beings. Just because you don’t beleive in contraception, doesn’t mean we need to be like animals, and have our families ruled by a flip of the reproductive coin. Keep in mind that if you erase NFP from the list of possibilities, you also are saying you cannot deliberately plan to become pregnant; you just have to go about your normal behavior and if it happens, it happens, whether you will or no.

 

[noma]

Artificial birth control is NOT natural family planning. It may be more effective, but it is not natural.

And I have never heard of the “Basil Method.” Or are you talking about just taking your basil temp, no mucus checks?

basal body temperature method - natural family planning in which the fertile period of the woman’s menstrual cycle is inferred by noting the rise in basal body temperature that typically occurs with ovulation The Free Dictionary

I did misspell it. And yes, mucus can be measured as well.

And I do see artifical birth control as a method of natural family planning not yet recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Karin]

And I do see** artifical birth** control as a method of natural family planning not yet recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church.

how can something that is ARTIFICAL be natural?