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ByWhatAuthority
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When did I say that???
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Xantippe
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I suggest you read Simcha Fisher’s excellent “The Sinner’s Guide to Natural Family Planning.” She has a very good chapter on the subject of serious reasons. Here’s an article with some of the ideas from the book:
"When Catholics talk about NFP, someone always asks rather plaintively why the Church doesn’t just clear up all the confusion about what does and does not constitute a legitimate reason to avoid a pregnancy. Why not just make a list: on the right, good reasons for postponing a pregnancy; on the left, bad reasons?
"Obviously we should still pray and try to discern God’s will for us — but why does it have to be so vague? Why doesn’t the Church just give us a break and spell it out already?
"Most of those who want more clarity are genuine seekers after God’s will, looking for more guidance as they discern the best path for their marriage. Others are looking for a definitive document to prove that their neighbors are abusing NFP, using it with a “contraceptive mentality.”
She goes on to explain why getting more specific might be a problem.
I’d personally add that the Church has spoken repeatedly on the subject of serious reasons, and I would suggest that it’s rather telling that quite a number of popes have spoken on the subject, and yet have studiously avoided specificity.
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Xantippe
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What would sway you?
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ahs
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Might it not be good to accept what the Church HAS said about it, and accept the fact that since the 1800’s, when this topic first arose, the Church has found it wise to not get as specific as you would like to see? (Those quotes I mentioned were around post #275…and other people also posted other quotes of similar nature that I did not provide…so obviously the Church has had AMPLE opportunity to clarify).
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ByWhatAuthority
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Canon law is my tried and true fall back if ever I have questions on matters of faith. I also like to research traditional sources. Like the early church fathers writings and those of the saints. Augustine is awesome! I try to avoid obscurity that i find is often found in more modern writings.
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Walking_Home
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In other words – you started a thread here with an agenda in mind. Just like a prior thread of yours – on the need of a marriage license to marry in the Church. You disregarded what was posted on that thread too.
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ByWhatAuthority
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I stand by what I said in the op. I am floating my thoughts and I’m interested in what others have to say. If someone provides evidence of Catholic teaching saying nfp can be used for any reason, I would love to see that. I don’t think that’s what it is for and it bothers me to see nfp marketed this way in and by our churches. If I wanted to hear from people who only agree with me, I would not have posted this here. I think this conversation is good if it makes people think. Myself included. It’s one thing to just think, hmmmm, this doesn’t seem right!?, it’s another thing to be able to verbalized why you think something might be wrong especially when it goes against the status quo to think that way.
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Walking_Home
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Yup – started the thread with an agenda.
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ByWhatAuthority
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That thread was great cause it solidified my thinking that the Church should not be forcing couples to get a ml as it is not canon law. And priests should not be subject to a felony for providing a sacrament without the states permission. To bad it got locked. Maybe I’ll start another one sometime…
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Walking_Home
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Walking_Home:
That thread was great cause it solidified my thinking that the Church should not be forcing couples to get a ml as it is not canon law. And priests should not be subject to a felony for providing a sacrament without the states permission. To bad it got locked. Maybe I’ll start another one sometime…
Right – agenda with that thread too.
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SusanneT
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There is a lot of talk about an App -
It is in effect just NFP based on a well written algorithm, using temperature data. It is aftively marketed as an alternative to the Pill and as being as effective as the Pill in preventing pregnancy
So my question is - given that this is NFP, that every ‘act’ is ‘open to life’ - I assume that the pro NFP lobby here would consider it in keeping with Church teaching despite being actively marketed to secular couple as Contraception. SURELY even those who promote NFP must see that the only thing which distinguishes this method from sin is the intent by which it is used, and the only way couples (especially young couples) are going to understand what is and is not sinful is to follow clear guidance from the Church. Which is why this whole argument about having ‘grave’ - ‘serious’ - ‘prayerful’ or whatever reason to avoid is so important and why I believe that the way NFP is currently sold by the mainstream Church is effectively as contraception in all but name.
It is in effect just NFP based on a well written algorithm, using temperature data. It is aftively marketed as an alternative to the Pill and as being as effective as the Pill in preventing pregnancy
So my question is - given that this is NFP, that every ‘act’ is ‘open to life’ - I assume that the pro NFP lobby here would consider it in keeping with Church teaching despite being actively marketed to secular couple as Contraception. SURELY even those who promote NFP must see that the only thing which distinguishes this method from sin is the intent by which it is used, and the only way couples (especially young couples) are going to understand what is and is not sinful is to follow clear guidance from the Church. Which is why this whole argument about having ‘grave’ - ‘serious’ - ‘prayerful’ or whatever reason to avoid is so important and why I believe that the way NFP is currently sold by the mainstream Church is effectively as contraception in all but name.
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PaulinVA
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The reason that NFP can work so well is that fertility and conception follows rules that can be defined. Because they can be defined, that leads one to conclude that God is not intervening haphazardly in his biology, but is letting it run it’s course as he created it. From an existential point of view, yes, all life comes from God. But it’s anti-science to imply that God gives us babies.
Uhm, almost every one of your posts that says this reason or that reason is not a valid reason to abstain. If there are few valid reasons to abstain, then we shouldn’t be abstaining, and if we shouldn’t be abstaining, we will have babies. Lots of them.
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TechieGuy
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The use of a device to help track fertile periods so as to abstain from sex for valid reasons?
Yeah, that’s okay.
That’s an interesting opinion which is not taught by The Church to be binding on Catholics.
You are certainly free to hold and act on that opinion, but, frankly, nobody else is obligated to care what you think.
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F_Marturana
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Or the cabbage patch.
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LundyLund
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OP, I think one of the reasons this thread has been so inflammatory is that you seem to suggest that before NFP was “approved” by the Church, children were accepted as blessings from God. Somehow, after NFP was sanctioned (for just or serious reasons), the mentality shifted. I don’t think that’s a fair representation of Church teaching or other persons’ views on children. I speak only for my family, but as a couple not actively seeking to conceive, if my wife were to conceive, we would accept the child with joy and see it as a blessing. By practicing NFP, even if we only have relations during infertile times, we always remain open to life. If we did not see children as blessings, we would not practice a method that is open to life. In fact, we used to use artificial birth control until we finally accepted that we were not being open to life (and thus, sinful).
You have said on several occasions that it was previously Church teaching that children are blessings from God (no disagreement there). You also seem to say that, until Castii Connubi and Humanae Vitae, it was Church teaching that the couple had no role in deciding when to participate in the creative act with the Creator. I am genuinely curious - would you please provide some citations of Church fathers, encyclicals, councils, etc. that state this? As of now, the only citations I’ve seen are to those that show current Church teaching.
Thank you, and have a nice day.
You have said on several occasions that it was previously Church teaching that children are blessings from God (no disagreement there). You also seem to say that, until Castii Connubi and Humanae Vitae, it was Church teaching that the couple had no role in deciding when to participate in the creative act with the Creator. I am genuinely curious - would you please provide some citations of Church fathers, encyclicals, councils, etc. that state this? As of now, the only citations I’ve seen are to those that show current Church teaching.
Thank you, and have a nice day.
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TheAmazingGrace
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No excuse to be this naive about parenthood and family planning.
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TheAmazingGrace
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You said it several times in regard to your friend with “TB.” Ignore the doctors’ advice, because God will take care of everything (unless the woman dies, but oh well).
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J_Peterson
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Your holier than thou attitude is very off putting. Many of us were accidents, in other words, not planned or expected.
You never answered before. Are women expected to ignore what they know about their bodies and just have sex every time the mood strikes? After birth, my wife is able to feel herself ovulate. Should she ignore that and have sex during that period, against doctors advice and against every instinct we have as a couple? Do you think we should live like brother and sister until we decide that we want another child despite what it would do to our marriage?
It’s interesting that those that have a grudge against NFP are reluctant to tell their stories. Witness for us, how many children do you have? What were the pregnancies and deliveries like? What health issues have you run against?
You never answered before. Are women expected to ignore what they know about their bodies and just have sex every time the mood strikes? After birth, my wife is able to feel herself ovulate. Should she ignore that and have sex during that period, against doctors advice and against every instinct we have as a couple? Do you think we should live like brother and sister until we decide that we want another child despite what it would do to our marriage?
It’s interesting that those that have a grudge against NFP are reluctant to tell their stories. Witness for us, how many children do you have? What were the pregnancies and deliveries like? What health issues have you run against?
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Xantippe
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You wouldn’t know this because you probably don’t have a lot of NFP experience, but there’s no way that a temperature only algorithm is 99% accurate.
And that’s particularly true for tricky situations like postpartum/breastfeeding and perimenopause.
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