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Xantippe
Guest
And yet in practice, “Oops! We watched Netflix too long tonight and tomorrow’s an early morning. Gotta go straight to sleep!” is not terribly wicked.
I think that’s what J Peterson is getting at.
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I think that’s what J Peterson is getting at.
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Edward_H
Guest
You raise a very timely and solid point.
You’re right.
You’re right.
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LadyLillian
Guest
Couples are to use NFP as a birth control method for grave or serious reasons. However, using NFP to track your cycle, monitor your gynecological health or achieve pregnancy is something that can be done at all times.
Also, I would reckon most couples will face “grave or serious reason” eventually, if only for the time following a newborn’s birth, so it makes sense for churches to promote the NFP method and raise awareness well before a couple actually needs to use it. After all, as I understand it, it can take a woman months of learning and charting before she is actually able to accurately use it for birth control or pregnancy achievement.
Also, I would reckon most couples will face “grave or serious reason” eventually, if only for the time following a newborn’s birth, so it makes sense for churches to promote the NFP method and raise awareness well before a couple actually needs to use it. After all, as I understand it, it can take a woman months of learning and charting before she is actually able to accurately use it for birth control or pregnancy achievement.
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Xantippe
Guest
Those points are quite right. By the time you’re experiencing a dire emergency, there really isn’t margin for error anymore. It’s most convenient to learn NFP while abstinent (I would suggest immediately after becoming engaged at the latest), rather than attempting to do so in the middle of a life-threatening emergency.Also, I would reckon most couples will face “grave or serious reason” eventually, if only for the time following a newborn’s birth, so it makes sense for churches to promote the NFP method and raise awareness well before a couple actually needs to use it. After all, as I understand it, it can take a woman months of learning and charting before she is actually able to accurately use it for birth control or pregnancy achievement.
Here’s another one that is quite common: a woman has an unexpected emergency c-section and is told not to get pregnant again for a full year. Postpartum NFP is hard even for really experienced users–learning the method under those circumstances would be extremely difficult. Also, one of the recurring problems with NFP (and for Catholics generally) is that a woman will wind up with repeated c-sections, and be told that her uterus is in danger of rupturing if she gets pregnant again, which would put both mother and child in mortal danger. If she only starts learning NFP at that point, it’s a very dicey situation. It’s a lot more prudent (and less stressful and scary) to recognize the potential problem early on and practice conservative NFP as soon as possible. With appropriate spacing, the situation might never develop into a crisis.
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NiceIsAsNiceDoes
Guest
It is disgraceful to create human beings that you know are going to live a life of suffering unnecessarily. This includes bringing children into poverty. Of course, I’m not Catholic, but I was raised as a Catholic and so I am well aware of the church’s teachings. I find them disgraceful.
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NiceIsAsNiceDoes
Guest
That is exactly what I believe.
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ByWhatAuthority
Guest
So those that are poor should not have been born!!?? There are many poor, struggling, suffering people in this world. They are worthy of life and a chance to know, love and serve God. Eliminate the problems, not the people.
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J_Peterson
Guest
Yep, I would consider that a just reason to not have sex. I also believe the following are just reasons:
I find it really odd that some believe that women should either be ignorant of what’s happening to her body or she is required to ignore what she knows about her body and have sex at every instance that the mood strikes. It simply doesn’t work that way.
> Finally, living according to God‘s design for love and life does not mean that married couples cannot plan their families. The principle of responsible parenthood describes the way spouses can work with God‘s gift of fertility. Rooted in ―the objective moral order which was established by God,‖ spouses can ―recognize their own duties towards God, themselves, their families and human society‖ as they decide when to try to achieve a pregnancy or conclude that there are sufficiently serious reasons to justify postponing one.28 Today, the Church is particularly blessed that viable scientific methods of natural family planning are available to support responsible parenthood.
- I’m not in the mood
- I don’t feel well
- The baby is waking up
- I’m ovulating and we can’t handle another child at this time
I find it really odd that some believe that women should either be ignorant of what’s happening to her body or she is required to ignore what she knows about her body and have sex at every instance that the mood strikes. It simply doesn’t work that way.
> Finally, living according to God‘s design for love and life does not mean that married couples cannot plan their families. The principle of responsible parenthood describes the way spouses can work with God‘s gift of fertility. Rooted in ―the objective moral order which was established by God,‖ spouses can ―recognize their own duties towards God, themselves, their families and human society‖ as they decide when to try to achieve a pregnancy or conclude that there are sufficiently serious reasons to justify postponing one.28 Today, the Church is particularly blessed that viable scientific methods of natural family planning are available to support responsible parenthood.
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1ke
Guest
Poor people don’t love their children? Poor people can’t be happy? Poor people don’t deserve to live? that seems to be your implication.
Who determines what “poor” is?
If a couple does not believe they can welcome a child at that time, they are not obligated to. But if the couple does want to welcome a child, are you suggesting there be some sort of test or requirement? That sounds like eugenics-- poor people not wanted.
Who determines what “poor” is?
If a couple does not believe they can welcome a child at that time, they are not obligated to. But if the couple does want to welcome a child, are you suggesting there be some sort of test or requirement? That sounds like eugenics-- poor people not wanted.
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PaulinVA
Guest
People are worthy of life, absolutely. BUT, we don’t believe that are people waiting in heaven to be slotted into a baby and if a couple doesn’t have relations that person isn’t born. People are created at the time of conception.So those that are poor should not have been born!!?? There are many poor, struggling, suffering people in this world. They are worthy of life and a chance to know, love and serve God. Eliminate the problems, not the people.
So, abstaining during war or times of strife is a just reason - you haven’t prevented anybody from being born.
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PaulinVA
Guest
They is a difference between “open to having babies” and “actively seeking babies all the time”.NFP is church teaching? Are you sure about that? I thought the Church always taught that married couples must be open to having babies. NFP/abstinence was mentioned as a solution to “grave or serious reasons” to prevent a possible pregnancy.
Our wedding vows are: “Are you prepared to accept children lovingly from God and to bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?”
We do not agree to and are not expected to try to have as many babies as possible.
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omgriley
Guest
I’ve seen people do some serious mental gymnastics to justify NFP in order to accommodate almost every luxury in life. I’ve even seen certain rock solid Catholic apologists (who shall remain nameless) say that a young married couple who want to travel the world together could use NFP because romantic get-aways can help them grow closer spiritually so as to prepare them for parenthood. Nonsense.
The Church is clear. Grave and serious reasons must be present in order to justify regulating pregnancies. The Church doesn’t need to provide a list of what “grave and serious” reasons are in order for the faithful to get it.
Can you financially support another child, or will it jeopardize your ability to pay the bills and keep the family afloat? If not, you can probably use NFP.
Can you hold off on having children because you want to go back to college, or because you want to wait until you’re 35 so that you’ll be “ready”? Obviously not. I think there can be a lot of willful ignorance in interpretation by people who simply don’t want as many children as God would send them.
The Church is clear. Grave and serious reasons must be present in order to justify regulating pregnancies. The Church doesn’t need to provide a list of what “grave and serious” reasons are in order for the faithful to get it.
Can you financially support another child, or will it jeopardize your ability to pay the bills and keep the family afloat? If not, you can probably use NFP.
Can you hold off on having children because you want to go back to college, or because you want to wait until you’re 35 so that you’ll be “ready”? Obviously not. I think there can be a lot of willful ignorance in interpretation by people who simply don’t want as many children as God would send them.
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omgriley
Guest
Actually, actually… The phraseology is not “just” but “SERIOUS”:
The Church is not leaving it up to the couples to decide for themselves what serious reasons are. She is expecting them to know what serious reasons might constitute in the first place. No one should have to explain to people that “I’m just not ready yet”, “We want to travel the world first” and “I want to finish my college degree” are not serious reasons.With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised…by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time. --Humanae Vitae no. 10
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ByWhatAuthority
Guest
"Grave or serious reasons " is VERY different than “just”. “Just” could mean, just because I want to go on vacation and look good in my bikini…
I think “Grave and serious” is what the Holy Fathers meant it to be. Not, “just” anything goes and you decide if it’s a sin or not to over analyze your bodily fluids all the time to make sure you don’t accidentally conceive a baby because you have things to do and a baby right now would just cramp your style.
I think “Grave and serious” is what the Holy Fathers meant it to be. Not, “just” anything goes and you decide if it’s a sin or not to over analyze your bodily fluids all the time to make sure you don’t accidentally conceive a baby because you have things to do and a baby right now would just cramp your style.
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ByWhatAuthority
Guest
And a big problem in today’s church is the lack of guidance. No one wants to set perimeters on things like NFP. Then you have people who should know better in places of authority, telling you, as long as you are not using abc, there is nothing wrong with you deciding to use nfp for any reason as long as you think it’s a “just” reason. Your all set!The Church is not leaving it up to the couples to decide for themselves what serious reasons are. She is expecting them to know what serious reasons might constitute in the first place. No one should have to explain to people that “I’m just not ready yet”, “We want to travel the world first” and “I want to finish my college degree” are not serious reasons.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Really? Have you tried to get a job recently without either a college degree or a technical certificate? How else do you expect someone to support their baby, or get the necessary insurance to cover the birth and baby’s medical needs? Are you aware that while many states offer Medicaid coverage to pregnant women, many still can’t get appropriate medical care because so few providers will take Medicaid?
(Yes, one can argue that it’s a good idea to be on a sound financial footing prior to getting married, but that’s not always a concrete thing–look at the dot com burst, for example. I’ll bet a LOT of those degreed software engineers thought they were on very firm financial footing, until they weren’t.)
(Yes, one can argue that it’s a good idea to be on a sound financial footing prior to getting married, but that’s not always a concrete thing–look at the dot com burst, for example. I’ll bet a LOT of those degreed software engineers thought they were on very firm financial footing, until they weren’t.)
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Asking again, have you ever learned an NFP method (they are not the same, there are many).
Have you ever had to abstain from relations with your spouse?
Until you have done both of those, you won’t get it.
Have you ever had to abstain from relations with your spouse?
Until you have done both of those, you won’t get it.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
No, “just” ties into the Catholic concept of “justice,” which has nothing to do with physical appearance.
“I want to look good in my bikini” might not be just, but “my family has a strong history of diabetes and stroke, and I want to be present for the children I have now and may have in the future, so I am working on losing fifty pounds” sounds pretty just to me.
“I want to look good in my bikini” might not be just, but “my family has a strong history of diabetes and stroke, and I want to be present for the children I have now and may have in the future, so I am working on losing fifty pounds” sounds pretty just to me.
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TechieGuy
Guest
So…aside from the couple involved, why is it anyone’s business why a couple might or might not choose to use NFP and why should anyone decide that other people need ‘guidance’ about doing so?
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Right.
DH and I have pretty dang serious reasons to avoid my getting pregnant for 12 months minimum postpartum due to my physical and mental health. (Like, “you and baby will die” level of reasons.) What this means in NFP practice is that we have several months of abstinence followed by six months of about 5-6 total available days out of 30-35, and then another six months of perhaps 12-14 days available out of 30-35 IF all the stars align properly, and again, bearing in mind that this means abstinence during the times we’re geared to want sex the most. And don’t forget that there will likely be a month or two in there where nothing happens at all due to badly-timed family visits, or illness, or the signs not lining up enough that we’re comfortable risking my life for a half-hour of fun.
Selfish? I’d laugh, if I didn’t feel like crying.
The thing is, I feel very lied to by people like ByWhatAuthority. We went through marriage prep with a priest who said not to learn NFP beforehand because we wouldn’t need it if we just did everything “correctly” by having our babies naturally, breastfeeding exclusively, and letting babies come as they may. We were fully on board with that until we had to choose between an emergency C-section and our baby’s life, and being able to have that sort of lifestyle in the future. And we chose to have our baby live, and have that C-section, because we aren’t monsters, but it means that nothing that the trads or providentialists say applies to our marriage. It’s almost as though they seriously think that we should have let our daughter die so that we could have sex more often and more children total. I hope he/she doesn’t mean that, but that’s how it often comes across.
DH and I have pretty dang serious reasons to avoid my getting pregnant for 12 months minimum postpartum due to my physical and mental health. (Like, “you and baby will die” level of reasons.) What this means in NFP practice is that we have several months of abstinence followed by six months of about 5-6 total available days out of 30-35, and then another six months of perhaps 12-14 days available out of 30-35 IF all the stars align properly, and again, bearing in mind that this means abstinence during the times we’re geared to want sex the most. And don’t forget that there will likely be a month or two in there where nothing happens at all due to badly-timed family visits, or illness, or the signs not lining up enough that we’re comfortable risking my life for a half-hour of fun.
Selfish? I’d laugh, if I didn’t feel like crying.
The thing is, I feel very lied to by people like ByWhatAuthority. We went through marriage prep with a priest who said not to learn NFP beforehand because we wouldn’t need it if we just did everything “correctly” by having our babies naturally, breastfeeding exclusively, and letting babies come as they may. We were fully on board with that until we had to choose between an emergency C-section and our baby’s life, and being able to have that sort of lifestyle in the future. And we chose to have our baby live, and have that C-section, because we aren’t monsters, but it means that nothing that the trads or providentialists say applies to our marriage. It’s almost as though they seriously think that we should have let our daughter die so that we could have sex more often and more children total. I hope he/she doesn’t mean that, but that’s how it often comes across.
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