NFP marketing, is promoting it right?

[AdamP88]

I stand by the teachings of the church that children are blessings from God. Who am I to tell God, enough is enough, I can’t handle another one! He knows best and will not give us more then we can handle in regard to His blessings

This is the problem. You prettymuch are saying that couples should have as many kids as possible. Or if they’re not open to that then they aren’t trusting God. What you’re saying here is not in line with Church teaching and prettymuch is providentialism.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

@ahs
Just to clarify I never said anyone was pro abortion. I only said that because of this quote from bruised reed :

“What of a woman who was advised to avoid pregnancy due to health issues, but got pregnant and died, leaving behind her older children whose father wasn’t able to care for them?”

I said that sounded like a pro abortion argumement because I’ve actually heard that argument used to justify abortion.

Is it okay for a Catholic to NOT have sex, and is it okay for a Catholic couple to have sex purposefully during the infertile period? (Make sure you cite authentic Catholic Doctrine here. )

I think the reason the Church used to teach that NFP and other abstinence methods should only be used for " grave or serious reasons" is because of the contraceptive mentality that NFP can foster if used for the wrong reasons.
I’m not suggesting we have a NFP police force in the church determining if couples reasons are worthy enough to use those methods to avoid. No! I’m only saying that the promotion of NFP, not as a solution to a serious problem but for any frivolous reason like because it’s not a good time to have a baby this year, is where there is an error. NFP should not be promoted as a Catholic alternative to ABC or contraceptives. That mentality is dangerous to the spiritual well being of married couples.

How is avoiding conception by abstinence the same as an argument for killing a baby after it is conceived?

It’s not the same argument.

 

[SusanneT]

I think the argument is that unless there is a really serious reason (which is up to the couples conscience to determine in prayer) for a couple to seek to avoid conception, then the default should always be to be open to children and to trust in God.

For some that might mean a big family, for others not.

 

[ReformedProtestant]

I am not Roman Catholic, so I did not see NFP literature in the back of our church. However, my wife’s ob/gyn office is called Tepeyac and the doctor is a devout Roman Catholic who gave her NFP literature… We used the NFP material to help us with conception. We now have three healthy children.

 

[PaulinVA]

I stand by the teachings of the church that children are blessings from God. Who am I to tell God, enough is enough, I can’t handle another one! He knows best and will not give us more then we can handle in regard to His blessings

This is the crux of our disagreement.

God doesn’t give us anything, in the sense that he gives us babies, or hardships, or blessings.

We are co-creators with God in the creation of new life. If we cooperate with His biology, a baby can be produced. God doesn’t say, “Oh, three kids are enough for them, I’m going to suspend how my biology operates”. If we have relations at the right time, the expected result is a baby. If we are imprudent as to the partner or the life conditions involved, too bad. The biology operates the way it operates.

The same way with free will. People do bad things that affect us. It’s not part of “God’s plan”. It’s people exercising free will.

Some people have a hard time dealing with the fact that life is a lot of random things happening, caused by us and other people. God is not a chess master making all the moves.

 

[F_Marturana]

I agree with you. NFP to avoid involves sacrifice that is hard.

People bring up selfishness. Selfishness is feeling that only becomes sinful when acted upon.

NFP can temper a person’s selfishness. It’s hard to sacrifice selfishly.

 

[F_Marturana]

I appreciate reading your thoughts on NFP over the years.

I’ve got three kids. I’ve lost two pregnancies. My youngest is 8. I’m 48 so barring a miracle like Sarah’s or Elizabeth’s, I won’t be having any more.

Even though three is a small number I’ve accepted every single gift God has given us.

To say I rejected a gift from God by use of NFP, would be similar as saying I refused a gift from my husband if a diamond encrusted tiara. I don’t have one because he never gave me one to refuse. (Not like we’d afford one, I wanted to show something extravagant as an example )

I don’t think God has little babies all planned out but are thwarted because couples weren’t intimate. Not being intimate is normally not a sin

 

[ahs]

Just to clarify I never said anyone was pro abortion. I only said that because of this quote from bruised reed :

“What of a woman who was advised to avoid pregnancy due to health issues, but got pregnant and died, leaving behind her older children whose father wasn’t able to care for them?”

I said that sounded like a pro abortion argumement because I’ve actually heard that argument used to justify abortion.

Except she wasn’t suggesting anything akin to abortion; rather saying that in such a case it’s okay to use NFP to avoid intercourse on fertile days. So no, her statement is not anything like a pro-abortion argument.

I think the reason the Church used to teach that NFP and other abstinence methods should only be used for " grave or serious reasons" is because of the contraceptive mentality that NFP can foster if used for the wrong reasons.

No, NFP, in actual practice, doesn’t foster a contraceptive mentality. You might think the Church thought this, but it didn’t. What the Church actually said is that some couples might sin via lust/selfishness when satisfying their sexual desires, or even avoiding sex altogether; HOWEVER, when intercourse is avoided during the fertile period and only engaged in during the infertile period, for these justified reasons, then this is not the case.

“Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life.” (Pius XII, Allocution to Midwives, emphasis mine)
Continuing with Pope Pius XII, “From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however…there are no such grave reasons…, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to tile full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles.” (Pius XII, Allocution to Midwives)

In other words, if there is no just reason, then there is a sin involved. And here is where you have a theoretically valid point [that some married Catholic couples can be lustful and selfish in Marriage]…except you try to fit NFP into this mentality. I beg to differ. I say that no couple uses NFP with such a “contraceptive mentality”. There is NO correlation between actual NFP-users and the “contraceptive mentality”. Those couples who DO have a “contraceptive mentality” will use contraception…because the “contraceptive mentality” has a direct conflict with the core aspect of NFP…abstinence as a matter of discipline during the time when abstinence is most difficult.

 

[1ke]

My original question/thought was that the promotion of something the Chruch used to say must only be used for “grave or serious reasons”

The whole point is that the Church didn’t “used to say” that.

 

[1ke]

I think the reason the Church used to teach that NFP and other abstinence methods should only be used for " grave or serious reasons"

You keep saying this, and people keep pointing to Church teaching that this is not true. yet you keep saying it.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Are you married? Do you have children?

 

[1ke]

NFP should not be promoted as a Catholic alternative to ABC or contraceptives

This is true. Periodic continence is an alterative to total continence, not contraception.

 

[TheLittleLady]

It’s important to remember that He will not over burden us.

That is one of those sayings that is nice, but, we have free will and God permits us to pick up as many burdens as we wish. God does not step in and say “well, I know you want to have intercourse with your husband on a fertile night, and you already have 4 under age 5, your husband is working 2 jobs and I know he is going to be laid off next month and will lose your medical coverage, you really cannot handle another pregnancy right now…” No. God gives us free will and reason.

Some families are blessed with excellent health and moms who bounce back with not a lick of depression. That does not mean that the mom who has physical or emotional reasons to delay pregnancy does not have enough faith nor that she thinks babies are monsters, armchair quarterbacking other people’s families is really easy.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Do you follow the “prosperity gospel”? The words sound so much like the people who told my mom that if she had enough faith and trusted God that her cancer would be healed.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I think the reason the Church used to teach that NFP and other abstinence methods should only be used for " grave or serious reasons" is because of the contraceptive mentality that NFP can foster if used for the wrong reasons.

You do realize that grave and serious are not the same thing? All grave reasons are serious, but, not all serious reasons are grave. Serious reasons means not flippant reasons. Again, if you have been married and choose to avoid intercourse when you, as a woman, are the most “in the mood”, you only make that sacrifice for a serious reason. Abstaining is not easy.

 

[AdamP88]

I’m not suggesting we have a NFP police force in the church determining if couples reasons are worthy enough to use those methods to avoid. No! I’m only saying that the promotion of NFP, not as a solution to a serious problem but for any frivolous reason like because it’s not a good time to have a baby this year, is where there is an error. NFP should not be promoted as a Catholic alternative to ABC or contraceptives. That mentality is dangerous to the spiritual well being of married couples.

But this is a moot point because Churches don’t do that. NFP is promoted because there ae other benefits to it. It is actually mainly used to conceive children. That’s what my wife and I are using it for at the moment. Most of the couples I’ve come across who use it are using it as a help to concieve.

Practicing it in this manner does help the couple’s relationship too. You seem to be just focused on the negative side. At the end of the day, the Church in Her wisdom has decided what stance to take in this area. There is no way of knowing whether individual couples will adopt a contraceptive mentality. In any case NFP is open to life by it’s nature. If a couple really want to avoid kids they will. There is no point knocking something good because “some people might misuse it”.

 

[J_Peterson]

We used it to conceive. Currently we are using it in a more informal way to not conceive. We are open to more children in that if she get’s pregnant we’ll have another kid.

Unless you can point me to where the Church teaches that every erection should result in intercourse until orgasm I’m not buying any of it. We don’t need a reason to not want to have sex. What a silly concept. Next you’ll say that the Church forbids sex during menstruation, during pregnancy, or after a hysterectomy.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

I’ve never heard of that. Also I would never say or think such a thing. Though I do believe in miracles and if I knew someone with terminal cancer, I’d pray for the miracle of a cure for him/her. As I’m sure you’d do the same, right?

 

[1ke]

And grave in English and gravis in Italian (and Latin) don’t have the same meaning. Gravis means weighty or serious, morally weighty, not “dire” or “grave” in the English meaning.

They are false cognates.

 

[AdamP88]

We don’t need a reason to not want to have sex. What a silly concept.

Well…the Church does say that you need a “just” reason. That though is something that each couple have to discern themselves.