NFP question

[Xantippe]

10 days per cycle is pretty good.

Bear in mind that an average of twice a week (which is what 10 times per cycle probably averages to) is pretty good, NFP aside.

This article says that married couples age 18-29 have sex 109 times a year (i.e. 2X a week) while 60 somethings have sex 32 times a year (i.e. roughly every other week).

articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-12-15/health/sc-health-1215-how-often-sex-20101215_1_unmarried-couples-relationship-sexual-problems

 

[godisgood77]

Do you have to get what you want to feel closer to your wife? What about what* she* wants? Does sacrifice for your wife not make you feel closer to her?

No… I don’t have to get what I want and yes, doing things for my wife makes me feel closer to her.

What about what I’ve posted so far makes you feel like I’m neglecting what she wants?

 

[Xantippe]

godisgood77 said:

“What about what I’ve posted so far makes you feel like I’m neglecting what she wants?”

Well, what does she want? What are her goals and dreams at this point?

 

[PaulinVA]

No… I don’t have to get what I want and yes, doing things for my wife makes me feel closer to her.

What about what I’ve posted so far makes you feel like I’m neglecting what she wants?

A plain reading of your posts leads me to think she doesn’t want any more children and is happy not having sex as much, and you are trying to find ways to have more children and have sex more often.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

10 days per cycle is pretty good.

Bear in mind that an average of twice a week (which is what 10 times per cycle probably averages to) is pretty good, NFP aside.

This article says that married couples age 18-29 have sex 109 times a year (i.e. 2X a week) while 60 somethings have sex 32 times a year (i.e. roughly every other week).

articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-12-15/health/sc-health-1215-how-often-sex-20101215_1_unmarried-couples-relationship-sexual-problems

uhhhh no. It is a common “sell” used by pro NFPers that 10 days per cycle means 10 days for sex. Nope. It could very well mean no days of sex at all in the entire cycle. Especially if the woman is not feeling well, not in the mood, busy or even if the kids are sick. A ten day window once a month is not a great window. Especially if 5 of those ten days are menstruation days and the couple is not super into that.
When we used NFP there were some months it was once, maybe.

I can speak directly to the OPs issue. My wife was not open to life as much as I was. I begged her to get off ABC and use NFP. I begged her to be open to life, to want a large family. As her faith grew so did her understanding and heart. I would make deals with her, ok we can avoid for now but we need to revisit this after (fill in the blank) My wife would try to control the exact right time to conceive another child and the exact right number to have. There was no serious reason to avoid and we found ourselves sating things like “well, after Christmas.” Well, after we go to Italy for a vacation, we don’t want to be pregnant in Italy!" See, the reasons were not “just” for both of us. It was our 4th child when we actually made a decision to “try to conceive” It took 3 months. Since we abandoned NFP our lives have been so much better. No charting, (though you never really abandon it after you learn it.) My wife is well aware of her fertility and so am I. But it is not something we argue about anymore. We have decided to live as a family, as husband and wife. And should no kids be in our bed for a night we are free to either watch a show and fall asleep, or attend to one another in the marital embrace. No, computer, no charts, no signs, no rules and exceptions, no calls to the C2CL to figure out our charts as foreplay. It is nice. The OP’s wife is at odds with the OP and it is affecting the marriage. She is either doing a poor job of communicating her faith and troubles with more children, or she is just not there yet in terms of her marriage or her faith.

Either way the answer is not just “well men want more sex so he must be doing something wrong or needs to change his view” The answer involves both of them, communication and God. From the posters words and from my own experience it is not just that he wants to have sex more, but rather he needs that form of manifested love inside a marriage. That love is not artificially satisfied by handholding in the park or breakfast in bed. It is satisfied the way God intends, through unitive and procreative action. He is starving, and she is on a diet. A situation at odds like that will not continue to be healthy.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

A plain reading of your posts leads me to think she doesn’t want any more children and is happy not having sex as much, and you are trying to find ways to have more children and have sex more often.

I got that as well. That was my situation too.

My wife and I communicate very well and all the time. She told me her fears, I told her my wants. I said that I wanted to have as large a family as God intended (no that doesn’t mean providentialism) That if 2 kids was all we should have then why was my heart wanting more? Why was my day spent loving the two I had but missing the ones we didn’t. I told her that I was not ok with setting this “limit” at 2. I communicated that what I wanted and what I expected from this marriage and from our faith together was more in line with God than the world. There were no ultimatums (there never can be in a Catholic Marriage) I never made her fear she would lose me or my love. I never made her feel evil for not agreeing with me at that exact moment in time. In all honesty though I did use sexual frustrations and situations as a leverage for my position. But she came around. And I did too. I do not push for a child at every chance I get and she does not act as if it would be the end of the world for us if we had another. And now we have a united view of the situation.

 

[Xantippe]

HoosierDaddy said:

“The OP’s wife is at odds with the OP and it is affecting the marriage. She is either doing a poor job of communicating her faith and troubles with more children, or she is just not there yet in terms of her marriage or her faith.”

Alternately, he isn’t thinking about the risks of their situation and she is.

See my previous post about advanced maternal age, miscarriage and chromosomal abnormalities.

Bear in mind, this couple did not use either birth control or NFP for a very extended period of time. The OP’s wife has done it your way already, and for a very extended period of time (maybe even much longer than you have). The OP says they have only been doing NFP for a few months total, out of over a decade of marriage.

This may just be a break in period.

 

[PaulinVA]

Just a comment about this type of situation between husband and wife - the frequency of sex, not the babies part.

When the husband successfully sacrifices for the woman and does not even seem remotely interested in sex (even though he is) so she is not on edge about being pressured or whatever, he gets not credit at all.

In the realm of unequal desire, a woman has to do something overt (initiate or consent to sex) but the man has to successfully do absolutely nothing. Not admit interest and say, “I won’t make you”, but actually show no interest. I guess it’s the opposite of faking the big O.

 

[godisgood77]

HoosierDaddy said:

“The OP’s wife is at odds with the OP and it is affecting the marriage. She is either doing a poor job of communicating her faith and troubles with more children, or she is just not there yet in terms of her marriage or her faith.”

Alternately, he isn’t thinking about the risks of their situation and she is.

See my previous post about advanced maternal age, miscarriage and chromosomal abnormalities.

Bear in mind, this couple did not use either birth control or NFP for a very extended period of time. The OP’s wife has done it your way already, and for a very extended period of time (maybe even much longer than you have). The OP says they have only been doing NFP for a few months total, out of over a decade of marriage.

This may just be a break in period.

I’ll clarify a few things about our situation…

First, we have used a less scientific "rhythm method’ with no charting in the past. Know our cycle has been important to us for the duration of our marriage. Our first child was born in 2004. We lost the second in Dec of 2006 at full term with a still birth. After much contemplation, discernment, healing, counseling, recovery… we decided to be open to life and were blessed with our daughter in sprint of 2010.

The assumption that anything has been done ‘my way’ is, in my opinion, not valid. We have been practicing NFP since Sept of last year, so we’re almost eight months in.

You mention the risks… I have proactively attended the last several OB/GYN visits…I’m involved. The Dr’s have cited a nominal increase in risk as you have pointed out. With thta said, most pregnancies result in miscarriages with most going undetected as they happen so early in the process. We have thought about the risks…,. I am thinking about the risks.

I can empathize with your inclination to vilify me or men in general in this situation…just trying to live a loving, faithful and fruitful live with my wife and family.

 

[godisgood77]

A plain reading of your posts leads me to think she doesn’t want any more children and is happy not having sex as much, and you are trying to find ways to have more children and have sex more often.

That’s not the whole story, but there isn’t anything untrue in your post.

 

[mommamaree]

Just a comment about this type of situation between husband and wife - the frequency of sex, not the babies part.

When the husband successfully sacrifices for the woman and does not even seem remotely interested in sex (even though he is) so she is not on edge about being pressured or whatever, he gets not credit at all.

In the realm of unequal desire, a woman has to do something overt (initiate or consent to sex) but the man has to successfully do absolutely nothing. Not admit interest and say, “I won’t make you”, but actually show no interest. I guess it’s the opposite of faking the big O.

No. There is the third option which I outlined earlier today.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Just a comment about this type of situation between husband and wife - the frequency of sex, not the babies part.

When the husband successfully sacrifices for the woman and does not even seem remotely interested in sex (even though he is) so she is not on edge about being pressured or whatever, he gets not credit at all.

In the realm of unequal desire, a woman has to do something overt (initiate or consent to sex) but the man has to successfully do absolutely nothing. Not admit interest and say, “I won’t make you”, but actually show no interest. I guess it’s the opposite of faking the big O.

Yes the whole, “You should desire me at all times, but only act on it when I’m in the mood.” trick. Not so easy to pull off and if you stray too far in either direction you get in trouble. Another reason that total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation.

 

[The_Bucket]

Well to be honest there seems to be a whole lot more at play than the original question of “what do I do when there isn’t a serious reason to avoid?”

I mean, I’m betting there’s a decent amount of psychological stuff going on in the background. Losing a child the way you did at full term, plus the additional risks outlined for “advanced maternal age” are potentially playing in your wife’s mind all the time. I mean, that’s very sad, very serious stuff.

Don’t you think your wife could possibly be trying to suppress the sexual stuff and make it “no big deal” so she doesn’t have to talk about something deeper going on here?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

HoosierDaddy said:

“The OP’s wife is at odds with the OP and it is affecting the marriage. She is either doing a poor job of communicating her faith and troubles with more children, or she is just not there yet in terms of her marriage or her faith.”

Alternately, he isn’t thinking about the risks of their situation and she is.

See my previous post about advanced maternal age, miscarriage and chromosomal abnormalities.

Bear in mind, this couple did not use either birth control or NFP for a very extended period of time. The OP’s wife has done it your way already, and for a very extended period of time (maybe even much longer than you have). The OP says they have only been doing NFP for a few months total, out of over a decade of marriage.

This may just be a break in period.

Those issues may be at play and the OP needs to communicate with his wife about that. But we should make sure we are not dictating they have just reason to avoid because of age. That is not our place. We all draw from our own lives and education on this issue. But we need to not add words to her mouth that explain away something that maybe is not the real issue here.

It does get old on these threads that when a woman has a marriage concern she is coddled and when a man does he is told to suck it up and change his ways.

 

[godisgood77]

Well to be honest there seems to be a whole lot more at play than the original question of “what do I do when there isn’t a serious reason to avoid?”

I mean, I’m betting there’s a decent amount of psychological stuff going on in the background. Losing a child the way you did at full term, plus the additional risks outlined for “advanced maternal age” are potentially playing in your wife’s mind all the time. I mean, that’s very sad, very serious stuff.

Don’t you think your wife could possibly be trying to suppress the sexual stuff and make it “no big deal” so she doesn’t have to talk about something deeper going on here?

Yes, it was hard and still is. Don’t we all have trials and tribulations in our lives? Aren’t we all damaged in one way or another? Don’t we all have crossed to bear? Sorry to be dramatic, but honestly, with prayer, support and time, we are able to get through these things. Resigning to the Divine Will is ultimately what is important…

Is there something deeper going on? Well we were fine before starting NFP, so this whole issue is new to our marriage… but there is something going on that is not at the surface level.

Thanks for the conversation… appreciate it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, it was hard and still is. Don’t we all have trials and tribulations in our lives? Aren’t we all damaged in one way or another? Don’t we all have crossed to bear? Sorry to be dramatic, but honestly, with prayer, support and time, we are able to get through these things. Resigning to the Divine Will is ultimately what is important…

Is there something deeper going on? Well we were fine before starting NFP, so this whole issue is new to our marriage… but there is something going on that is not at the surface level.

Thanks for the conversation… appreciate it.

Though some of us have differing views on your situation and NFP in general I can personally guarantee that you have the prayers of all posters posting on this thread. Not only that but I would also say that each person is offering what they deem is the best advice. All of us care about this issue and about your post and situation.

God bless you.

I don’t drink beer. But if I did and if this was not the internet, you and I should have a round and talk.

 

[7armyrugrats]

I’ve never understood how couples can honestly believe that 10 days per month is pretty good, figuring a woman can only conceive in a super small window of time. I don’t get how a couple can find scheduling sex to be romantic. I don’t see how anyone can think this husband shouldn’t be upset, considering the fact that they have two kids, 5 years apart in age, and he doesn’t see why NOW his wife is so into conservative NFP that it amounts to possibly maybe being intimate at some point in a 10 day window. They are obviously not super fertile or they would have way more than a 9 year old and 4 year old. Now his wife equates sex to a hand shake. This is sad for them.

Why do so many people live their lives in fear? You know, women well into there 40’s have always had successful pregnancies. There are even some cases in the Bible of women beyond their 40’s having healthy babies–and that was well before modern medicine. This couple ONLY HAS TWO KIDS and she is only 37. I don’t understand why people must live there lives in constant fear even when many popes have told us to be not afraid–and that is because Jesus has also told us this Himself. We cannot base all our decisions in life on the fear that maybe something could happen when we really have no idea it will or not. Do people make ALL there choices out of fear or only the ones that concern with having children?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’ve never understood how couples can honestly believe that 10 days per month is pretty good, figuring a woman can only conceive in a super small window of time. I don’t get how a couple can find scheduling sex to be romantic. I don’t see how anyone can think this husband shouldn’t be upset, considering the fact that they have two kids, 5 years apart in age, and he doesn’t see why NOW his wife is so into conservative NFP that it amounts to possibly maybe being intimate at some point in a 10 day window. They are obviously not super fertile or they would have way more than a 9 year old and 4 year old. Now his wife equates sex to a hand shake. This is sad for them.

Why do so many people live their lives in fear? You know, women well into there 40’s have always had successful pregnancies. There are even some cases in the Bible of women beyond their 40’s having healthy babies–and that was well before modern medicine. This couple ONLY HAS TWO KIDS and she is only 37. I don’t understand why people must live there lives in constant fear even when many popes have told us to be not afraid–and that is because Jesus has also told us this Himself. We cannot base all our decisions in life on the fear that maybe something could happen when we really have no idea it will or not. Do people make ALL there choices out of fear or only the ones that concern with having children?

One may wonder if you and I will ever see a thread or issue that we disagree on.

 

[mommamaree]

Those issues may be at play and the OP needs to communicate with his wife about that. But we should make sure we are not dictating they have just reason to avoid because of age. That is not our place. We all draw from our own lives and education on this issue. But we need to not add words to her mouth that explain away something that maybe is not the real issue here.

It does get old on these threads that when a woman has a marriage concern she is coddled and when a man does he is told to suck it up and change his ways.

Okay, I hear you, however, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If a husband is expecting a different result than what he is getting, he is going to have to change his ways. I gave an example of how he might change his ways and get a new result. So far, my ideas on how he might successfully do that have been ignored. I am not sure why that is.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Okay, I hear you, however, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If a husband is expecting a different result than what he is getting, he is going to have to change his ways. I gave an example of how he might change his ways and get a new result. So far, my ideas on how he might successfully do that have been ignored. I am not sure why that is.

Well for one we don’t know the husband does not do those things. And also, this “complete conversion on the interior” or however you phrased it is a bunch of bunk if the wife does not completely change her ways too. I know we are both reading into the situation with our own biases but I can tell you that perhaps the husband is not lacking in the “romance” or “giving” department and perhaps his wife is. Perhaps she should be more “giving” and less “taking” as well. It very well could be she is taking his sexuality and spiritual and marital being for granted. And not giving enough understanding and bonding. I don’t get the sense from him that he is interested or even wants to “take” anything. But rather has been giving and is left with a trade deficit.