Nice guys finish last belief

[Liberanosamalo]

Yes, girls sow their stupid oats. Because they are looking for some things by their very nature that are key to survival and having someone take care of them and their children in the future. In modern society, that is still hardwired in their brains. They just read the clues wrong because modern society has blurred things.

Here’s some rules for leveling the playing field with the “bad boys.”

Learn from their game if you want to win at it. If you refuse to compete on any terms that a woman wants or your attitude is I am what I am, then you’ll be alone being what you are.

1. Personal hygeine. Be honest and go ask your mother or sister. Grooming is essential. A lot of the bad boys smell real good. They dress as if they give a darn. They brush their teeth. They comb their hair. Matter of fact, a lot of them are more vain than women. Which the women find out to their regret later. But if you don’t catch a second look, you have abandoned the playing field. Really, many women have an acute sense of smell. Nothing is a bigger turnoff than poor hygiene. A woman is looking for a healthy, vibrant man to father her children. Smell healthy.
2. Pretend to be masculine. Even if you aren’t. At least give the appearance of being someone who would try to lift a sofa or wouldn’t make her move the refrigerator because she is more manly than you are. Really, you may think you’re great lying on the sofa reading poetry, but that only goes so far in a woman’s brain when deep down she is looking for a protector and provider for her children.
3. Don’t pinch your pennies till they cry. Seriously, I know you’re all afraid of the “gold digger” but a penurious attitude is not something many women want to put up with. That’s where the bad boys run off with the girls. Not because they have more money. (Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t.) It’s because they give the APPEARANCE of generosity. At least in the beginning. A woman is looking for a man with a generous spirit. If your generous spirit only activates after you’ve found a wife and dragged the girl to the altar and THEN you’ll open your bank to her, you’ve already lost her. No woman wants the guy who someday will shower her with goodness. She needs to see that NOW. Otherwise you are giving the appearance of being someone who will begrudge her and your children the necessities of life. It’s not how MUCH you spend on her, it’s the sense she has that you have a generous spirit.
4. Closely related… if you live in a cave or your apartment looks like one and your car hasn’t been cleaned since you bought it in 1992, say goodbye to the girl. And then grumble about how the sleazy girls all go to the guy with the hot car.

Again… she looks at what you have, how you take care of it, what you give yourself as an indication of how you will treat HER and your children. If YOU dont’ take care of the stuff you own, you won’t take care of her. Doesn’t matter how nice you think you are, if you are still sleeping on that mattress on the floor you lugged home from the frat house when you graduated from college in 1993, she’s not interested. Of course you haven’t slept with any women. No sane girl would get within 20 feet of that thing! If you don’t think you deserve a better car than that wreck dragging the muffler down the street, she will perceive that getting a car fit to carry the kids around in will be a battle of wills with her. She’ll look elsewhere.

1. Yes, you’re nice. Yes you’re moral. But don’t beat her over the head with comments about “sluts” and “loose women” and all the stupid damaged women out there and how none of them was good enough for you. She is friends with many women. She knows we all are works in progress. She knows (because she has been the shoulder her sisters and friends cry on) how hurt many of these “damaged” girls have been by their own poor choices and by the deceptiveness of men. No one likes labels. She doesn’t want to live a life with someone who she thinks will view her as The Magdalene or her sister as The Whore (even in your own head.) Her choices brought her where she is today…maybe someone who might really appreciate you (not as a parking lot. More as a refuge from the storm out there.) now that she has the blinders removed from her eyes. No one likes holier than thou. Many of her friends are where they are because they really tried to love someone, wrongly, but they tried to love. Love (or what you think is love) will make you do things you might otherwise not do. Show some forgiveness toward those who may not be as wise as you. No woman wants to be with someone who judges her all the time.
2. Women don’t respond to you romantically? Well, the difference between you and bad boy is he KNOWS how to be romantic. Again, it’s that con man thing. He reads her, watches her for clues. Gets to know her the way a thief scopes out his target. She misreads that as his being interested enough in her to get to know her. Yeah, her mistake. But you need to do the same thing. Get to know her enough to know what she might like. BE romantic. It’s not enough that you sit there shining your niceness all over the place. Being her best friend. She might actually wonder if you’re gay. Because guess what? We all have gay male friends who are wonderfully nice and get to know us and there is ZERO sexual attraction. They don’t make advances. They don’t court us. They’re just great friends. She may think you’re in the closet. Seriously. Because we all have that frustration, those of us who have lived any length of time, of how it seems all the great guys that respect us, value us, are friends with us,… have sexual self control around us… they all seem to be gay. It’s a girl joke. If YOU don’t try to take it to the next level, she will never know.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

1. Which brings us to the next point. Yeah, there’s a whole lotta you who then tried that and got the “Oh, I just want to be friends.” Well, have you honestly appraised yourself in the other 5 topics and seen whether you’re someone she WANTS to take to the next level? The difference between you and bad boy is he KNOWS how to and when to make his move. He knows how to read her signals that she’s interested. A lifetime of practice being a cad will do that for you. You need to observe women more and talk to women more to learn when your advances might be acceptable. Get a clue about women. If you want one, learn about them. Don’t be passive in life. Women don’t like passive men! Would you take the same approach to a company you wanted to work for? Sit around and grouse they won’t hire you even though you have a great degree and are a good worker? No. You’d find out about the company and tailor your resume to make them believe you would be indispensible to their success as a company. You’d sell yourself a little harder than you are with the women apparently. And you wouldn’t sit around and wait for the company to come to you.
2. Okay, unless you are perfectly nice, perfectly moral, a genius, and gorgeous… (in which case, chances are you’re in the seminary, because isn’t that where they all go) you might have to be a little bit nicer than you are sure you are right now. Not every woman is a size 2. Not every woman looks like Cindy Crawford. Unless you look like Paul Newman in his prime, don’t bypass the very nice women just because they aren’t so perfect. That makes you no better than the women you seem to be complaining about. (A hint here… sometimes love makes a woman more beautiful. When a woman is loved and in love, she dresses different, does her hair different… you might be the one who does that for her. So don’t bypass the women who aren’t pinup models.) Yes, lots of you “nice” guys aren’t so nice about judging women and bypassing women based on your exacting preferences. I’ve heard the comments. In my head I say “Well, pal, glad you’re good at being alone. You’ll have years to go with that.”
3. Being nice can equal being boring if you have not developed any interests outside of videogames, sports, or poring over computer texts and actuarial tables. No woman wants to envision being with someone who seems to have no interests in anything outside his own narrow world. Be interesting and women will be interested in you. Learn to dance like Fred Astaire and women will beat a path to your door. Learn to make a woman feel like you’re interested in her. If your social skills are lacking, find a way to fix that. (If you don’t know if you lack social skills, ask your sister. She’ll always tell you the truth about yourself. If you don’t have a sister, ask someone else’s sister.)
4. Do you know there are many really nice women out there who can’t seem to find a nice guy? Seems all the bad girls get all the attention. All the guys run after the sleazy users and gold diggers. They bypass the sweet girl in church. They marry the woman who cheats on them. Why do nice guys do that? Can’t they see the lovely Catholic woman who would be a faithful wife and mother sitting right under their noses?

Yeah, that door swings both ways. But you all walk right by her. Maybe because she doesn’t look like Taylor Swift. Because maybe her Catholicism grew after a few years of bad choices. Maybe she finally realized what her mother had been trying to tell her all those years. Maybe a few bad guys made her realize her true worth would be found with a different kind of guy. Maybe she even married and is now divorced (damaged goods to you guys). (And horrors… she maybe isn’t a virgin anymore. Which makes her completely unworthy of the nice guys.) You’re mad at her and don’t like her because you didn’t get to her first.

What kind of attitude is that!!!



If all you want is to be the first with a woman, your idea of love is skewed. You aren’t as nice as you think you are. Many of us “nice” girls loved and married a man who wasn’t a virgin because we tried to see past that. We tried to see the goodness in him. We forgave him for what and who he was before he met us. Maybe we were rewarded for that, or maybe we weren’t.

THAT is the definition of niceness. Seeing someone’s value and trying to perceive goodness in others and acting on it.

If you can’t do that, you’re not really one of the nice guys. You’re just passive, needy, and angry that women aren’t beating a path to your door, a little bit arrogant that everyone should see the shining star in you when there are about 25,000 other men they see in the course of a year at the store, in church, at work, in traffic, at the post office…

Hiding in your cave wondering why there’s no wife to love you if you haven’t made an effort to at least get to know what makes a woman take a second look is not being proactive or showing you have the determination to succeed at what you seem to want most in life.

In our culture, many women are taught NOT to call you, NOT to pursue you, and to wait for YOU to make the first move. Try being a pursuer and use the tactics that those who succeed use (whether they deserve to win is not the debate here.)

So there. Now you guys have no excuse to complain about us anymore. Damaged as we all are, we’ve learned a few things in life. Can you? Because if you can’t learn from life and from others, it doesn’t matter how nice you think you are, no one wants you for a husband.

There. I’ve done my good deed for the day… A primer for the nice guy.

 

[Captain_America]

Bad guys are understandable and girls enjoy the thrill of trying to “tame” them. . . certainly a way for a girl to demonstrate her feminine powers!

Good guys are more challenging since they are on a more equal plane. Some girls are intimidated by this.

 

[whatevergirl]

*I agree with somewhat of your above post, Liberano.

One thing that I would say that many men lack today who are dating around from stories I hear from friends and family members who are dating–is chivalry. That special quality that many men used to possess rather naturally…not saying there are no NO men today, who possess this…I fell in love with this quality in my husband, in addition to his sense of humor.

Being galant is something many of today’s men no longer possess. Maybe many women today won’t appreciate it, I don’t know.

I also have noticed something amongst Catholic women I know who are dating…how CATHOLIC men talk to them. I think to myself…is this how you were raised? To address women as though they were stupid, and beneath you? (sadly, I sometimes see it on here, sadly, with a few single men who talk to women in such disrespectful tones, it’s astounding to me) The women will scurry to apologize to these men, and I think to myself…you said nothing wrong, HE should be apologizing.

I remember a time when men wouldn’t swear when a woman was in the room (well my dad was like this)…now? They swear AT them. Sad. I was not raised like this…my dad was a devout Catholic man, and he always showed my mother the utmost respect. Not that they never argued, but he always showed respect for her as a woman. That is sorely lacking today, with many single men. It’s as though a man waits to see how a woman acts before he is nice. No, a man should always treat a woman with respect, just because she is a woman. That is the RIGHT way to do things. You don’t have to date her, or marry her, but you don’t talk to women like they’re one of the guys, or you’re in competition with her. Treat women with respect, it will go a LONG way.

My daughter has a few male friends. One day, I went to pick her up from school on a day off I had, and her friend was yelling…‘yo’ in my direction. I’m like what is that sound, a kid screaming ‘yo?’ I drove over, my dd was standing in a different spot than normal, my window was down, dd got in the car…and the boy just looked at me…saying…‘we weren’t sure if you saw us.’ I said…‘for your own good, do not refer to adults as yo…I’m not ‘yo’ to you.’ He said…Oh, uh, I’m sorry Mrs. N. He looked at me with a shocked look. Driving away, my dd said, mommy, a lot of kids talk like that. I said, and you won’t date a boy like this…the lack of respect from a kid to a teacher, to an authority figure, to a parent…this is where it all is beginning from…and so, when they get older, they call their gf’s ‘yo.’ (and worse) No, I’m not a ‘yo.’ I said, I HOPE you address parents the way your father and I have taught you. She said…yes, mommy. (roll your eyes all you want, you don’t address adults as though they were kids)

Okay, I got that off my chest. lol

I’m not saying women don’t have their issues also…Feminism has played a role in all of this, no doubt. but, I would like to see chivalry make a comeback. I think the difficulty is that there are so many boys/men out there who have dumbed down the dating process to the point where girls don’t expect much anymore, sadly. They raise the bar so low, that it ruins it for guys like you, OP…and others who are well meaning, good Catholic men who are looking for a quality partner. Sometimes, girls don’t think that ‘type’ exists, so they settle. My advice would be to become a little assertive, so you make sure quality people know you’re available.

I’m just guessing, but those are my thoughts.*

 

[whatevergirl]

1. Which brings us to the next point. Yeah, there’s a whole lotta you who then tried that and got the “Oh, I just want to be friends.” Well, have you honestly appraised yourself in the other 5 topics and seen whether you’re someone she WANTS to take to the next level? The difference between you and bad boy is he KNOWS how to and when to make his move. He knows how to read her signals that she’s interested. A lifetime of practice being a cad will do that for you. You need to observe women more and talk to women more to learn when your advances might be acceptable. Get a clue about women. If you want one, learn about them. Don’t be passive in life. Women don’t like passive men! Would you take the same approach to a company you wanted to work for? Sit around and grouse they won’t hire you even though you have a great degree and are a good worker? No. You’d find out about the company and tailor your resume to make them believe you would be indispensible to their success as a company. You’d sell yourself a little harder than you are with the women apparently. And you wouldn’t sit around and wait for the company to come to you.
2. Okay, unless you are perfectly nice, perfectly moral, a genius, and gorgeous… (in which case, chances are you’re in the seminary, because isn’t that where they all go) you might have to be a little bit nicer than you are sure you are right now. Not every woman is a size 2. Not every woman looks like Cindy Crawford. Unless you look like Paul Newman in his prime, don’t bypass the very nice women just because they aren’t so perfect. That makes you no better than the women you seem to be complaining about. (A hint here… sometimes love makes a woman more beautiful. When a woman is loved and in love, she dresses different, does her hair different… you might be the one who does that for her. So don’t bypass the women who aren’t pinup models.) Yes, lots of you “nice” guys aren’t so nice about judging women and bypassing women based on your exacting preferences. I’ve heard the comments. In my head I say “Well, pal, glad you’re good at being alone. You’ll have years to go with that.”
3. Being nice can equal being boring if you have not developed any interests outside of videogames, sports, or poring over computer texts and actuarial tables. No woman wants to envision being with someone who seems to have no interests in anything outside his own narrow world. Be interesting and women will be interested in you. Learn to dance like Fred Astaire and women will beat a path to your door. Learn to make a woman feel like you’re interested in her. If your social skills are lacking, find a way to fix that. (If you don’t know if you lack social skills, ask your sister. She’ll always tell you the truth about yourself. If you don’t have a sister, ask someone else’s sister.)
4. Do you know there are many really nice women out there who can’t seem to find a nice guy? Seems all the bad girls get all the attention. All the guys run after the sleazy users and gold diggers. They bypass the sweet girl in church. They marry the woman who cheats on them. Why do nice guys do that? Can’t they see the lovely Catholic woman who would be a faithful wife and mother sitting right under their noses?

Yeah, that door swings both ways. But you all walk right by her. Maybe because she doesn’t look like Taylor Swift. Because maybe her Catholicism grew after a few years of bad choices. Maybe she finally realized what her mother had been trying to tell her all those years. Maybe a few bad guys made her realize her true worth would be found with a different kind of guy. Maybe she even married and is now divorced (damaged goods to you guys). (And horrors… she maybe isn’t a virgin anymore. Which makes her completely unworthy of the nice guys.) You’re mad at her and don’t like her because you didn’t get to her first.

What kind of attitude is that!!!



If all you want is to be the first with a woman, your idea of love is skewed. You aren’t as nice as you think you are. Many of us “nice” girls loved and married a man who wasn’t a virgin because we tried to see past that. We tried to see the goodness in him. We forgave him for what and who he was before he met us. Maybe we were rewarded for that, or maybe we weren’t.

THAT is the definition of niceness. Seeing someone’s value and trying to perceive goodness in others and acting on it.

If you can’t do that, you’re not really one of the nice guys. You’re just passive, needy, and angry that women aren’t beating a path to your door, a little bit arrogant that everyone should see the shining star in you when there are about 25,000 other men they see in the course of a year at the store, in church, at work, in traffic, at the post office…

Hiding in your cave wondering why there’s no wife to love you if you haven’t made an effort to at least get to know what makes a woman take a second look is not being proactive or showing you have the determination to succeed at what you seem to want most in life.

In our culture, many women are taught NOT to call you, NOT to pursue you, and to wait for YOU to make the first move. Try being a pursuer and use the tactics that those who succeed use (whether they deserve to win is not the debate here.)

So there. Now you guys have no excuse to complain about us anymore. Damaged as we all are, we’ve learned a few things in life. Can you? Because if you can’t learn from life and from others, it doesn’t matter how nice you think you are, no one wants you for a husband.

There. I’ve done my good deed for the day… A primer for the nice guy.

*A+ – well said. *

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Oh, you are so right. And again, the bad boys know how to fake chivalry.

They’re smooth. Some of them open doors, pull out chairs. They know just what to say and how to say it. That was one of the things that made me fall for xh. He seemed so different from the boorish college guys. He had the fake show down to a science. I thought he was raised well. I thought he was respectful. He was so rare.

I didn’t know till the chivalry stopped after the wedding that it was all an act.

Too bad more guys didn’t have manners their mothers taught them. A jerk like xh wouldn’t have seemed so shiny and wonderful.

Again, the bad boys know how to make a woman feel special.

And when they see the “nice guys” not doing that, it adds to their arrogance and makes them even more confident. Women like confidence in a man. We’re hardwired for that. The difference is, the real nice guy should treat women with respect because she is a daughter of God. And that shouldn’t be a big show that ends on the wedding day.

 

[whatevergirl]

I think a lot of what you say, has come out of the mouth of friends and family members I know, who are dating. They say that many men are so passive these days. (to your #7 rule) I think you should have this published, Liberano.

 

[chevalier]

Liberanos, slow down please. I never used the word “damaged” or “slut” or anything of the kind.

What I was talking about was the bourgeois cliche that the young people need to sow their wild oats before settling down, coupled with permission for not very conduct, just as long as it doesn’t come out in the form of rumours or illegitimate children. My post concentrated around a quote from Cher:

“A girl can wait for the right man to come along, but in the meantime that still doesn’t mean she can’t have fun with all the wrong ones”

Incidentally, taken from a motto collection of one of my good and kind friends, who apparently believes in it.

This translates as dating all sorts of appealing guys who a girl knows she wouldn’t want to spend a life with, knowing already that after a while she will have to change her picking habits and pick a keeper. Incidentally, men do the same. This is not specific to either one sex.

My “parking lot” metaphor was not a sexual reference. You could call it a harbour as well. I specifically said that with the attitude I mentioned - from the extreme, “I’ve had the fun with the wrong ones, let me now find a right one to settle down with,” (which is probably rather rare in reality, but I wouldn’t be too sure after all the stories I hear about “fishing” in colleges) to the milder, “my adventuring days are over, let me now settle down,” - with that attitude, I wouldn’t like to enter into a relationship with the given woman. By contrast, if she recognised mistakes as mistakes and were not proud of her turbulent past and looking back upon it as a great time, I would get over it. Simply by naming two different possibilities, I showed that I didn’t put everyone in just one category. What was it in my post that upset you so much? Frankly, there’s plenty of women in their late teens or early twenties who are in relationships with guys they’d never want to marry, in relationships which are “not that serious” (even though the couple lives together), who make out or even have sex while drunk at a party when young but later turn into respectable citizens when they grow up a bit etc. The same goes for men. The improvement in conduct happens in two ways: either remourse and regret, or just growing up, taming down, settling. Some people regret the sins of youth, some people don’t. I would prefer my prospective partner to belong to the former group.

For the record, while I don’t wish to question your experience, I find it a bit hard to believe that SOBs as a rule make women feel cherished, loved and beautiful. I think it relies more on threats (spoken or not), dependancies, undermined self-esteem. Abusers rely on shutting their victims away from the outside word, making them fear them (using unpredictable fits of rage as an instrument of punishment and blaming the victim for “causing” those, as if the abuser hadn’t been able to prevent it), shattering their self esteem so that they think they can’t do any better and don’t deserve any better either.

I will address your list in my next post.

 

[whatevergirl]

Whatevergirl is right, as she is usually.

I’d like to consider myself one of the “nice” guys (just don’t interrupt my reading…grr…) and I’ve had very good “luck” with women, just haven’t met Miss right yet.

Be good to yourself, never apologize for being a gentlemen, and keep it positive.

Oh yeah, pray too.

You seem to have it right! Finding the ‘right’ person to marry, is not easy. It’s not ‘hard,’ like climbing mount everest…lol It shouldn’t be! lol But, you’re wise to be patient, and discern God’s calling for you in that regard. From your posts here, you seem to be very respectful to women, in general, not only ones who agree with you. It’s not luck, though–it’s called being a ‘nice’ guy. God bless!

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Chevalier, it wasn’t just your post… it was more the totality of the opinions expressed by the men as a whole here.

For the record, we kind of are discussing two different cultures. I don’t mean to diss Europe, but… well, as bad as we are, Americans are a little more puritanical than our European cousins are perceived to be. What you see and hear from women over there in a very post-Christian age (though Poland is different in that respect, it still has the lingering effects of decades of secularism and Communism) have produced a bit more of a free-wheeling environment than even here, I think.

And God bless Cher. She’s enduring. 60 years of making music. After nuclear holocaust there will be two things left… cockroaches and Cher. And her fabulous wealth has been used to do much good in the world from what I’ve read. But I know few people who take their moral code from her. (And she’s actually one of the tamer rock singers in our country as far as morality goes… she seems to have loved earnestly, but wrongly. It makes for good songs though.)

For the record, while I don’t wish to question your experience, I find it a bit hard to believe that SOBs as a rule make women feel cherished, loved and beautiful. I think it relies more on threats (spoken or not), dependancies, undermined self-esteem. Abusers rely on shutting their victims away from the outside word, making them fear them (using unpredictable fits of rage as an instrument of punishment and blaming the victim for “causing” those, as if the abuser hadn’t been able to prevent it), shattering their self esteem so that they think they can’t do any better and don’t deserve any better either.

Yeah, that’s my life with xh. You describe it perfectly. But yes, SOBs start out making a woman feel loved and cherished. THAT is the man a woman bonds with. First impressions are lasting. And by the time the real guy comes out to play, she has convinced herself the nice guy was the reality and the other is an aberration. She has to tell herself that because otherwise what does that make her? Stupid? A fool? Surely she wasn’t so wrong! Once in a while a clever abuser makes her feel pretty. It gives her a false hope to cling to. Matter of fact, it makes her even more dependent. She was right! The nice guy IS in there. Maybe he’ll come out again someday! An incompetent abuser wil be mean 100 percent of the time. The woman will leave quickly. Then he’d have to find a new victim.

It’s all head games. And that’s why the girls stay with the jerks for a while. Because every once in a while the cads look around and see the nice guys and they put on an act so their victim doesn’t run off with someone who will treat them better. Try living like that for a decade and then you don’t trust who is nice and who isn’t. It’s still something I’m dealing with. How do I know that nice guy isn’t another act?

 

[whatevergirl]

*My opinion, Liberano?

The #1 way to tell if a man is going to be a good guy for the long haul…is how he treats his mother. (and how he gets along with his dad) But, his mom, moreso. My husband has a beautiful relationship with his mom. He is not a mommy’s boy, yet he respects and honors his mother, and treats her like gold. That ‘should’ carry over to how a man then treats his wife.

#2, I would say to notice how a man treats women who he has no intentions of dating. If he is capable of having female friends, with nothing more. If he is charitable and respectful to all women. Not just women he’s dating.

#3 If he trash talks every woman before you…RUN. I have friends who say that is the worst thing to experience on a date. Men talking about a)only themselves and b) every horrible woman before them.

That’s what jumps out at me, anyways. There **are *wonderful Catholic men out there, Liberano, have hope. :hug1:

 

[chevalier]

Heh, got to edit my post, as you’ve posted in the meantime, Liberanos. I’ll just leave this one blank and lay it out in the next one.

 

[ahollars]

Nice guys finish last because that’s all they are, just “nice guys”.

I agree with the previous poster who said to get a life before you get a wife. I did it, and I did it big time. As a soldier, I was able to command respect wherever I went, even without saying a word. After 9/11, the thank you’s became so frequent and awkward that I didn’t even want to go out on the town hardly. I had made my choice long before, and towards the end before my wedding, all these girls who knew me before came flooding my mother with questions about “just how serious are they?”. It was too late. I was the prize that got away for many of them, because I was content to just be friends.

For guys who feel they are having bad luck, STOP LOOKING! You are trying too hard. It won’t happen until you let go and put it in God’s hands. You are not in charge of when you meet your spouse. God will plan that. Not every nice girl you see is a potential. That standard will get you in trouble. Look back and imagine if you had selected one of them. Scary, right? If you want to attract a good wife, you need to look like a good husband. Simply being a nice guy isn’t even halfway there.

Have some patience.

 

[chevalier]

Well, the difference between you and bad boy is he KNOWS how to be romantic. Again, it’s that con man thing. He reads her, watches her for clues. Gets to know her the way a thief scopes out his target. She misreads that as his being interested enough in her to get to know her. Yeah, her mistake. But you need to do the same thing. Get to know her enough to know what she might like. BE romantic. It’s not enough that you sit there shining your niceness all over the place. Being her best friend. She might actually wonder if you’re gay. Because guess what? We all have gay male friends who are wonderfully nice and get to know us and there is ZERO sexual attraction. They don’t make advances. They don’t court us. They’re just great friends. She may think you’re in the closet. Seriously. Because we all have that frustration, those of us who have lived any length of time, of how it seems all the great guys that respect us, value us, are friends with us,… have sexual self control around us… they all seem to be gay. It’s a girl joke. If YOU don’t try to take it to the next level, she will never know.

Ekhm. You well know that the sixth commandment is not just about intercourse. It’s actually about sexual self-control. Some women will think you’re gay if you have it. Some others will not accept the fact they don’t have that level of control over a man. Love is not about sex drive and possession, love is about giving and love requires the cooperation of reason, not removal of it. If I were given the choice to act sexually before marriage or to die single, I would happily die single. Luckily, there are women who feel the same way, who don’t want to take your self-control away and so on.

Chevalier, it wasn’t just your post… it was more the totality of the opinions expressed by the men as a whole here.

But you realise you can’t make all men responsible collectively for all that all men said? Just like women, men come to discussion with individual experiences and individual outlooks.

For the record, we kind of are discussing two different cultures. I don’t mean to diss Europe, but… well, as bad as we are, Americans are a little more puritanical than our European cousins are perceived to be.

I don’t wish to be disrespectful, but while the puritanism is true and real, there is the other side of the coin, which is the breaking of many norms to large extents, such as the huge porn industry, the sexual revolution, the Mardi Gras, the image shown in films and so on. It’s all relatively shocking to me. I don’t think the diletante Western Europe can boast the same.

 

[whatevergirl]

Nice guys finish last because that’s all they are, just “nice guys”.

For guys who feel they are having bad luck, STOP LOOKING! You are trying too hard. It won’t happen until you let go and put it in God’s hands. You are not in charge of when you meet your spouse. God will plan that. Not every nice girl you see is a potential. That standard will get you in trouble. Look back and imagine if you had selected one of them. Scary, right? If you want to attract a good wife, you need to look like a good husband. Simply being a nice guy isn’t even halfway there.

Have some patience.

*I agree with this. I have often said this on here, and to my friends…not to ‘give up’ and sit at home waiting for the man to arrive, but…to not worry over the outcome. Get involved in life…live life, and enjoy it. Be a good person. Pray. I believe that you have to become what you’d like to attract, also. It sometimes isn’t a popular sentiment on here though…‘letting go and letting God find the right mate for you.’ I did this though, and found a wonderful person to spend my life with. Not without it’s bumps, has our marriage been. But, he makes me a better woman.

Good post ahollars! *

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Ahollars, another awkward thank you to absorb… Thanks!

And you are exactly right. But you were content to be friends with all those girls. I bet once you found one you wanted more than friendship with, you changed your tactics a bit and made your advances and wouldn’t have ceded the battlefield to the cads, huh? YOU became proactive.

I think you’re right… don’t just be a nice man. Be a good man.

Whatevergirl, your 3 things to watch are SO true! (Too bad I didn’t see how he really treated his mother till after the wedding. Before that I relied on what he said and her silent accompaniment to it all. Later she told me “I just thought you were some mousy thing he could dominate.” Nice! Those two perpetuated a lie. I watched her live in his house and see him get engaged to both fiancees. It was disgusting. Her attitude (knowing what he did to me) was “She’s smart, she’ll figure it out.” when I asked if she was going to warn them.) Like she warned me.

No, the xh didn’t have female friends. And all he talked about was himself. Which I loved because we were both in love with him and so I was interested in everything about him. And nice girls aren’t raised to talk about themselves all the time. Can you see how a cad would slip in there and blur the reality, taking advantage of what makes a nice girl nice? And he trash talked his ex. In the context of how much better I was than she was, and he was dating me when he had consigned himself to being a bachelor forever until he found special little ol’ me. I believed him till he was divorcing me and telling everyone I was psycho and then I went and asked his mother if his ex was really psycho like he said. “No, she was just a queen bee and there was only room for one queen bee in that hive.” Nice. Again, so much for taking people at their word. Now when a man tells me his ex was a psycho, I think of my ex telling people that about me.

Yeah, those three things are VERY important to watch for!

Chevalier, you deserve a whole post.

 

[Tosk]

Nice guys finish last because of the women they usually choose. Nice guys want to please, to be a hero, or a knight and shining armor. most normal women find that kind of insecurity a major turn off, so they are usually attracted to the hard luck cases. basically neurotic crazy women with tons of baggage. . It leaves them open to being used and abused by women who have already sown their wild oats and are ready to settle down now.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I don’t wish to be disrespectful, but while the puritanism is true and real, there is the other side of the coin, which is the breaking of many norms to large extents, such as the huge porn industry, the sexual revolution, the Mardi Gras, the image shown in films and so on. It’s all relatively shocking to me. I don’t think the diletante Western Europe can boast the same.

I don’t want to turn this into cultural bashing. We believe the same thing on love and romance, Chevalier. But our free will and intellect are compromised by Original Sin. So we have that concupiscence, that reversion to a very animal nature, we must fight. Not everyone fights it successfully. And men and women are hardwired differently. Like it or not, women subconsciously look for certain things in a man. Protectiveness, strength, ambition, being a good provider, health… All those things are good. But you know what they say about too much of a good thing. It can become obsessive jealousy, bullying, cunning crookedness, greed and a lot of other things taken to an extreme. They say no one truly embraces sin. Even those who are sinning see it as good. Satan is the deceiver who makes us see evil as good, or to see more good in a person than reality warrants. So those stupid girls who were looking for love in all the wrong men… they weren’t looking to marry Satan’s brother.

As for Europe… c’mon… Carnivale? Nude beaches everywhere… a white slavery industry across the continent that makes Americans gasp? Open prostitution in some capitals? Tell me you didn’t notice anything like that in Europe before we all tried to be just like y’all.

In the liberal sectors of U.S. society, Europe was held up as the standard to which we must conform if we wanted to be sophisticated and liberated and grown up.

Poland is still one of the few places where it hasn’t gone to hell in a hand cart.

I know a lot about our country is vile. But the people who made it so were trying to be more like… Europe.

 

[chevalier]

Liberanos, I won’t go on with the Europe vs America thing. As you well point out, it turns into bashing in no time and it’s not connected with our topic. I’ll just note my disagreement and move on.

I’ll try to be as brief as possible with the list of point. Firstly, just for the record, I was and sharing a view in discussion. The fact I’m talking and I’m single doesn’t mean I came to whine. I came to talk about life.

So without further ado, I needed some time to pound it into my head that #1, hygiene, was not directed to me personally, but it did feel bad. You can’t just tell single guys that they’d better check their hygiene. No man here would tell that to the single women.

As for #2, any relationship based on pretending is a lie. It can result in invalid marriage if a quality was “directly and principally intended” (can. 1097 §2). The fact I’m taking issue with this point doesn’t mean I have some issue with my own looks or strength, but I won’t be bragging (at this time ).

As for #3, I’m worried by the “you all”. I’m sure you would point out that women are each a bit more individual than that, but the same rules apply to men.

As for #4, I’m worried by the part about not sleeping with other women and a junk bedroll being the explanation. We’re back to the cliche that a 30 year old male virgin who is not a priest has a problem.

As for #5, it goes too far. I don’t know what kind of men you need to put up with over there, but when I say that a past regretted is not an issue but a past not regretted is an issue, it means that a past regretted is not an issue but a past not regretted is an issue.

As for #6, the 6th commandment is not only about intercourse or even explicit sexual behaviours, but it concerns the mind also and the self-control very much, which I’m sure you know very well, so I’m surprised by your comment and I must take issue with it. Given the choice between giving up my sexual self-control around a woman and dying single, I would happily die single (in fact, I’d happily get shot cold right there too if such were the only alternative). Some women will think you gay if you don’t lose that self-control, others will resent you because they don’t have that degree of authority over you which that self-control prevents. But you aren’t any worse off by being run away from by those women. In fact, the latter is an abusive pattern (it denotes a desire to control others and switch their brains off).

As regards #9, the nice guy will typically have the disadvantage of boredom as compared to a “bad guy”. There’s always more thrill in rash, haphazard actions. As I also said somewhere else, abusers have personality problems and those all too often come with a magnetic personality side-effect.

As regards #10, full agreement.

In the end, I need to say you can’t sum up all the charges from above and dump them on me. While it’s true I didn’t come to this thread complaining about my luck with women, I can say I can identify with the sorrows some guys let us in on here. At the same time, I can assure you I don’t have any problem with any of the positives or negatives you listed, except #6 (yes, I keep my self-control, no, I’m not bad at flirting (better than I should be proud of)), and 9 - after all, I don’t have many common interests with young women these days. I’m interested in history, geography, psychology, languages, IT. When I was younger, I couldn’t keep a girl’s attention. These days, I don’t have this problem but I simply realise there’s no hope for a good relationship when interests diverge so much. I could pull it off (I’m a good actor and I have a way with women), but it would serve no purpose. No amount of attractiveness or seductive tricks deals away with a simple fact of not finding someone who’s compatible with you and vice versa. Men would do well to stop thinking about “getting a woman” and start thinking about what kind of woman they are going to “get”.

 

[chevalier]

Perhaps a little explanation is due. I’m not focusing on a form of competition between the simple “nice guys” and the most sophisticated abusers. Obviously, no one is “guilty” of being the victim of a professional hunter.