No Compromises: Kansas State Bishops Declare Voting for Abortion Candidate is "Evil

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It is axiomatic that there are economic benefits to abortion. There are economic benefits to any and every economic activity. I don’t have much interest in what they may be, but since you insist that I think about it, I suspect evidence would show that teenagers who have abortions are able to attain higher educational levels, and thus increased productivity as employees.I didn’t “switch horses.” It was KenEOTE in #115 who brought up breast cancer. My statement in #117 to which you first replied was Whether that disease is endometrial cancer or something else, whether the abortion is a surgical procedure or caused by RU-486, somewhere along the way you’ll find a health benefit to abortion. In those cases, if your premise from the get-go has been that abortion is bad because it increases health risks, you’ll have to turn around and admit (if you’re being intellectually honest, anyway) that abortion is good because it reduces a health risk.🤷 If someone states that Bush is our greatest president because he looks good in blue, I’ll point out the flaws in the logical approach, and possibly give contrary evidence from that approach (some sources indicate Clinton looked even better in blue). Is that going down another path from what I believe, or merely helping someone to see the flaw in his logic?
OK what is the health benefit of Abortion. What are the Health Risks that abortion reduces. To say that is not being intellectualy honest. That is the same kind of logic that, well the Jews are a problematic people, they control too much of the money, if we eliminate them we will gain more control of the money and land, so we will extract them and put them in ovens. Obviously by your logic there has to be a benefit to murder, a benefit to genocide, a benefit to rape. If you are going to be intellectually honest you have to come to that conclusion. Actually Clinton looks better in charcoal, Bush sports the blue better.

Oh and don’t go blaming me for jumping off one horse for another. I said nothing about horses in any of my posts.
 
Obviously by your logic there has to be a benefit to murder, a benefit to genocide, a benefit to rape.
Yes, exactly; this is why it’s diversionary and dangerous to argue moral issues based on their economic or health pros and cons.
 
Yes, exactly; this is why it’s diversionary and dangerous to argue moral issues based on their economic or health pros and cons.
WOW that is all I have to say.

There are no economic or health pros to Rape, Genocide, Murder, or Abortion. To think that is to be on the verge of insanity.
 
There are no economic or health pros to Rape, Genocide, Murder, or Abortion. To think that is to be on the verge of insanity.
To deny it is to be in the midst of naivety.

Suppose we kill all the software developers in Canada and Europe - voila, sudden boon for American software developers, who have much less competition.

Now suppose you’re president of Zimbabwe, and you find that land in the country is disproportionately owned by whites, and that there is a shortage of land for much of the black population. Why not kill the white farmers so the land can be distributed to blacks, especially to restive veterans groups. Although that qualifies as genocide, in most cases the farmers were simply harassed until they left, in what amounted to ethnic cleansing. While there was economic benefit in distributing land to landless blacks, it was far outweighed by the ineptitude of these former soldiers at farming.
 
To deny it is to be in the midst of naivety.

Suppose we kill all the software developers in Canada and Europe - voila, sudden boon for American software developers, who have much less competition.

Now suppose you’re president of Zimbabwe, and you find that land in the country is disproportionately owned by whites, and that there is a shortage of land for much of the black population. Why not kill the white farmers so the land can be distributed to blacks, especially to restive veterans groups. Although that qualifies as genocide, in most cases the farmers were simply harassed until they left, in what amounted to ethnic cleansing. While there was economic benefit in distributing land to landless blacks, it was far outweighed by the ineptitude of these former soldiers at farming.
Your logic is diabolical. I wont debate you on this any longer. Someone who can justify murder, abortion, and genocide is sickening. Thankfully you were unable to come to some sick reason that makes rape a good thing. I am sure you have one though.

Anytime one side is benefited it is not truly a benefit. It does not benefit society as a whole. I hope that sinks in. A true Benefit will impact all in a positive manner.
 
It is axiomatic that there are economic benefits to abortion. There are economic benefits to any and every economic activity. I don’t have much interest in what they may be, but since you insist that I think about it, I suspect evidence would show that teenagers who have abortions are able to attain higher educational levels, and thus increased productivity as employees.I didn’t “switch horses.” It was KenEOTE in #115 who brought up breast cancer. My statement in #117 to which you first replied was Whether that disease is endometrial cancer or something else, whether the abortion is a surgical procedure or caused by RU-486, somewhere along the way you’ll find a health benefit to abortion. In those cases, if your premise from the get-go has been that abortion is bad because it increases health risks, you’ll have to turn around and admit (if you’re being intellectually honest, anyway) that abortion is good because it reduces a health risk.🤷 If someone states that Bush is our greatest president because he looks good in blue, I’ll point out the flaws in the logical approach, and possibly give contrary evidence from that approach (some sources indicate Clinton looked even better in blue). Is that going down another path from what I believe, or merely helping someone to see the flaw in his logic?
My point from the beginning has been your flawed logic and supposition presented as fact. It continues…
 
Did anyone watch The World Over, with Raymond Arroyo on ETWN, last evening?

He had the Bishop of Denver on and this subject was covered well. The Bishop stated the Church’s position and that of the USCCB, which contradicts what this thread is stating.

Even Raymond Arroyo challenged the Bishop in stating that what he was saying, that a Catholic could vote for a pro-choice candidate, was confusing for the average Catholic.

It all came back to, we should not be voting on a single issue, but as Catholics, we must use good moral judgment and consider everything, when voting for a candidate.

The Bishop gave examples of where two candidates are both pro-choice, or one is pro-choice, but the other candidate, supports some other immoral issue. The voter must decide which candidate will bring about more good to society overall, than the other.

What I got from the conversation is, the title of this thread, is misleading and not all of the USCCB’s agree with it.

The bottom line for me is, I won’t vote for incompetence, just because that candidate says he’s pro-life, like I did in the last election.

Jim
 
The bottom line for me is, I won’t vote for incompetence, just because that candidate says he’s pro-life, like I did in the last election.

Jim
Me neither! I will vote for the competent pro-lifer over an inexperienced and incompetent pro-choicer any day though. 👍
 
Did anyone watch The World Over, with Raymond Arroyo on ETWN, last evening?
BTW…it will replay Sunday, Aug 24 at 4PM (MST) and Monday, Aug 25 at 8AM and 9PM (MST).
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JimR-OCDS:
He had the Bishop of Denver on and this subject was covered well. The Bishop stated the Church’s position and that of the USCCB, which contradicts what this thread is stating.

Even Raymond Arroyo challenged the Bishop in stating that what he was saying, that a Catholic could vote for a pro-choice candidate, was confusing for the average Catholic.

It all came back to, we should not be voting on a single issue, but as Catholics, we must use good moral judgment and consider everything, when voting for a candidate.

The Bishop gave examples of where two candidates are both pro-choice, or one is pro-choice, but the other candidate, supports some other immoral issue. The voter must decide which candidate will bring about more good to society overall, than the other.
Be careful about that. The same Archbishop took a particular group (Catholics for…) to task for only quoting part of his words:
Why do I mention this now? Earlier this spring a group called “Roman Catholics for …” quoted my own published words in the following way:

"So can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is: I can’t, and I won’t. But I do know some serious Catholics – people whom I admire – who may. I think their reasoning is mistaken, but at least they sincerely struggle with the abortion issue, and it causes them real pain. And most important: They don’t keep quiet about it; they don’t give up; they keep lobbying their party and their representatives to change their pro-abortion views and protect the unborn.

Catholics can vote for pro-choice candidates if they vote for them despite – not because of – their pro-choice views."

What’s interesting about this quotation - which is accurate but incomplete - is the wording that was left out. The very next sentences in the article of mine they selected, which Roman Catholics for … neglected to quote, run as follows:


"But [Catholics who support ‘pro-choice’ candidates] also need a compelling proportionate reason to justify it. What is a ‘proportionate’ reason when it comes to the abortion issue? It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life - which we most certainly will. If we’re confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed."*

On their website, Roman Catholics for … stress that:*
“After faithful thought and prayer, we have arrived at the conclusion that … is the candidate whose views are most compatible with the Catholic outlook, and we will vote for him because of that – and because of his other outstanding qualities – despite our disagreements with him in specific areas.”

I’m familiar with this reasoning. It sounds a lot like me 30 years ago. And 30 years later we still have about a million abortions a year.
So, when you say “some other immoral issue,” that issue must be very serious…not just *any *“other immoral issue.”
 
s we head toward November, Catholics might profit from recalling a few simple facts.

First, surrounding a bad social policy or party platform plank—for example, permissive abortion—with religious people doesn’t redeem the bad policy or plank. It merely compromises the religious people who try to excuse it. One of the more miraculous, or suspicious, side-effects of the 2004 election was the number of candidates in both political parties who suddenly began talking about their religious faith. There’s no doubt that many public officials, regardless of party, do take their religious beliefs very seriously and do try to live by them. That’s a good thing. So maybe this latest trend implies a new Great Awakening. Or maybe, as one of my skeptical friends says, “it’s just another charm offensive to get the shamans off their backs.” Time will tell. Words are important. Actions are more important. The religious choreography of a campaign doesn’t matter. The content of its ideas does. The religious vocabulary of a candidate doesn’t matter. The content of his record, plans, and promises does.

Second, there’s no way for Catholics to finesse their way around the abortion issue, and if we’re serious about being “Catholic,” we need to stop trying. No such thing as a “right” to kill an unborn child exists. And wriggling past that simple truth by redefining the unborn child as an unperson, a pre-human lump of cells, is the worst sort of Orwellian hypocrisy—especially for Christians. Abortion always involves the deliberate killing of an innocent human life, and it is always, inexcusably, grievously wrong. This fact in no way releases us from the duty to provide ample and compassionate support for unwed or abandoned mothers, women facing unwanted pregnancies, and women struggling with the aftermath of an abortion. But the inadequacy of that support demands that we work to improve it. It does not justify killing the child.

Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children. The right to life is foundational. Every other right depends on it. Efforts to reduce abortions, or to create alternatives to abortion, or to foster an environment where more women will choose to keep their unborn child, can have great merit—but not if they serve to cover over or distract from the brutality and fundamental injustice of abortion itself. We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.

Third and finally, national campaigns—of every political party—always run on the language of hope, change, and the American Dream. This makes sense. Our leaders should inspire us; they should stir our hearts and call us to live the ideals that make America great. But sometimes the answer to the realities we face is not “yes, we can,” but “no, we can’t.” No, we can’t spend money like hedonists and outrun our debts forever. No, we can’t ignore the poor of the Third World and expect to be loved abroad. No, we can’t allow the killing of roughly one million unborn children a year and then posture ourselves as a moral society. No, we can’t make wicked things right by spinning them in a clever way.

Robert D. Kaplan once wrote that “Americans can afford optimism partly because their institutions, including the Constitution, were conceived by men who thought tragically.” The American Founders, most of them Christians, had a hard and unsentimental understanding of the limits of human reason and virtue. The last thing we need in 2008 is the kind of bogus hope rooted in mystical good feeling.

The real world involves hard conflicts and intractable issues that can’t be talked away or smothered under evasive language. Plenty of very good Catholics inhabit both major political parties. It’s our job as Catholic citizens to press our parties and our political leaders to respect the sanctity of human life—all of it, from conception to grave—whether our leaders and party elites like us or not.

Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M.
Tuesday, August 19, 2008, 8:11 AM
Did anyone watch The World Over, with Raymond Arroyo on ETWN, last evening?

He had the Bishop of Denver on and this subject was covered well. The Bishop stated the Church’s position and that of the USCCB, which contradicts what this thread is stating.

Even Raymond Arroyo challenged the Bishop in stating that what he was saying, that a Catholic could vote for a pro-choice candidate, was confusing for the average Catholic.

It all came back to, we should not be voting on a single issue, but as Catholics, we must use good moral judgment and consider everything, when voting for a candidate.

The Bishop gave examples of where two candidates are both pro-choice, or one is pro-choice, but the other candidate, supports some other immoral issue. The voter must decide which candidate will bring about more good to society overall, than the other.

What I got from the conversation is, the title of this thread, is misleading and not all of the USCCB’s agree with it.

The bottom line for me is, I won’t vote for incompetence, just because that candidate says he’s pro-life, like I did in the last election.

Jim
 
Bravo to the Kansas Bishops, hope other Bishops will also speak
clearly on the topic.
For those who are unhappy that the candidates are not to their
choosing, have you done anything at the grassroots level to
help those good candidates get elected? Usually those are the
ones who will run for the higher offices in the future. It is possible
to have (name removed by moderator)ut in the parties platforms at this level as well. Get
others who agree with your positions to join you. It’s also a good
place to start to get some current office holders out of office.
I think it is acceptable to mention a website that goes into other
ways you can help pro-life candidates. priestsforlife.org.
 
Did anyone watch The World Over, with Raymond Arroyo on ETWN, last evening?

He had the Bishop of Denver on and this subject was covered well. The Bishop stated the Church’s position and that of the USCCB, which contradicts what this thread is stating.

Even Raymond Arroyo challenged the Bishop in stating that what he was saying, that a Catholic could vote for a pro-choice candidate, was confusing for the average Catholic.

It all came back to, we should not be voting on a single issue, but as Catholics, we must use good moral judgment and consider everything, when voting for a candidate.

The Bishop gave examples of where two candidates are both pro-choice, or one is pro-choice, but the other candidate, supports some other immoral issue. The voter must decide which candidate will bring about more good to society overall, than the other.

What I got from the conversation is, the title of this thread, is misleading and not all of the USCCB’s agree with it.

The bottom line for me is, I won’t vote for incompetence, just because that candidate says he’s pro-life, like I did in the last election.

Jim
Strange I have listened to this talk twice now and came away with the impression that direct evil (abortion) trumped other indirect evil (social issues, war etc). Will have to listen a third time now just to make sure.
 
Kathleen,
I heard most of the interview on EWTN and came away with the
same impression you did. I was going to hear it again because
I thought I might have missed something that Jim got.
 
I should have made it more clear in my last post, that the author of the quote, Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M., archbishop of Denver, is the same person “JimR-OCDS” refernced as the Arroyo’s guest on EWTN.

The statement was made on 8/18/08. it seems to fully support your take on the program.👍
Strange I have listened to this talk twice now and came away with the impression that direct evil (abortion) trumped other indirect evil (social issues, war etc). Will have to listen a third time now just to make sure.
 
Your logic is diabolical. I wont debate you on this any longer. Someone who can justify murder, abortion, and genocide is sickening. Thankfully you were unable to come to some sick reason that makes rape a good thing.
Rape is a tougher act to see economic benefits from, at least on a macro scale. Obviously it’s been used in ethnic cleansing. I suppose rape counselors as a group benefit from the continued presence of this crime. Anyway, if one fails to understand the reasons (some of which are economic) people commit immoral acts, one will have a tougher time identifying and supporting policies that may be effective in preventing these acts, and one may at times be more likely to fall victim to such people.
KeyEOTE:
Anytime one side is benefited it is not truly a benefit. It does not benefit society as a whole. I hope that sinks in. A true Benefit will impact all in a positive manner.
I’m not sure I understand what would actually qualify as a benefit in your definition. Almost any event, development, etc that we might consider a benefit - electrification of houses, the coming of Christianity to the Americas, the ability of women to participate in the workforce - has had negative effects as well. Perhaps that’s why Pope Gregory opposed railways in Italy in the 1800s.
 
This,this…(gagging) is shocking…having principles in this day and age of …new age…is outrageous…how out of step…how ‘square’ can these religious prelates be? Back in 1860,there was an issue called Slavery…did a man have the right to own another man,woman,child…just because they are black…now we have abortion…this is terminating a pregnancy…how quaint see how the wording is less vulgar then murder…so there have been some 50 million killings of developing babies in the good ole US of A since that dreadful supreme court ruling …since 98% of all humans are decent and mixed in there are scientists,doctors,artists,writers,inventors etc etc…one wonders if the person who would have have the cure for cancer,or Aids (see how clever)Parkinsons disease etc etc was aborted by ‘choice’…as in Billy Jean Kings place,she wanted to finish her tour…hey that makes sense…HooRay for these bishops…there is hope for the RCC after all .the last popes since my favorite PiusX11 have all been a disaster in many ways…Lets pray these bishops dont get transferred to the bronx or bedford sty…
 
So what happens to a Catholic and is a running mate to an abortionist?:confused: 🤷
 
I should have made it more clear in my last post, that the author of the quote, Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M., archbishop of Denver, is the same person “JimR-OCDS” refernced as the Arroyo’s guest on EWTN.

The statement was made on 8/18/08. it seems to fully support your take on the program.👍
Ditto for my last post. I am very familiar with Archbishop Chaput’s views on this. There are plenty of articles by the Archbishop on the diocesan website - www.archden.org

He has very clearly taught that abortion trumps other social issues, which is why I think JimR-OCDS is oversimplifying the Archbishop’s statements to make it sound like abortion is just one issue among many.
 
Did anyone watch The World Over, with Raymond Arroyo on ETWN, last evening?

He had the Bishop of Denver on and this subject was covered well. The Bishop stated the Church’s position and that of the USCCB, which contradicts what this thread is stating.

Jim
Are you refering to Archbishop Chaput? Surely you misunderstood him. His teaching on this is crystal clear:

Fourth, “those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a ‘grave and clear obligation to oppose’ any law that attacks human life. For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such laws or to vote for them.” Politics is the exercise of power. Power always has moral implications. And God will hold each of us accountable — from the average voter to senators and presidents — for how well we have used our political power to serve the common good and the human person.

“Pro-choice” candidates who claim to be Catholic bring all of us to a crossroads in this election year. Many Catholics, including some Church leaders, argue that “(we) should not limit (our) concern to one issue, no matter how fundamental that issue is.” That’s true — but it can also be misleading.

Catholics have a duty to work tirelessly for human dignity at every stage of life, and to demand the same of their lawmakers. But some issues are jugular. Some issues take priority.** Abortion, immigration law, international trade policy, the death penalty and housing for the poor are all vitally important issues. But no amount of calculating can make them equal in gravity.**

The right to life comes first. It precedes and undergirds every other social issue or group of issues. This is why Blessed John XXIII listed it as the first human right in his great encyclical on world peace, Pacem in Terris. And as the U.S. bishops stressed in their 1998 pastoral letter Living the Gospel of Life, the right to life is the foundation of every other right.

ewtn.org/library/BISHOPS/duckfox.htm
 
Strange I have listened to this talk twice now and came away with the impression that direct evil (abortion) trumped other indirect evil (social issues, war etc). Will have to listen a third time now just to make sure.
Well when you listen again, take note how Raymond Arroyo says to the Bishop, that its confusing for average Catholics, the way it is being explained.

He in fact said, Catholics can vote for a candidate who is pro-choice, providing other issues are at stake.

Jim
 
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