'No compulsion in religiion' is not true in islam

[planten]

You are not being oppressed in our lands. but, it is quite the opposite for Christians, or any other non-muslim, in muslim lands. Or in such areas as kashmir and India, or now in Bulgaria. And we know this happens elsewhere in Africa and Southeast Asia.

Your claim of oppression is false and tiring. No one hates you except your own prophet who told everyone that women are not as intelligent as a man, and most of them are in hell.

Abrogation

As you can see surah 2 is indeed abrogated.

**There is no abrogation of any verse or word or dot in the Quran. It is like Jesus said that not a dot or tittle of the law will be abondoned. That was about the law of Moses. But the Catholics have said good-Bye to that law now.

Similarly, there is no abrogation of any word of the Quran. If at all, it could be that the earlier verses ( of the bibleNt etc.) may have been abrogated by the verses of the Quran.

I have yet to see any verse of the Quran which maybe said to be abrogated.
**

 

[R_not]

**There is no abrogation of any verse or word or dot in the Quran. It is like Jesus said that not a dot or tittle of the law will be abondoned. That was about the law of Moses. But the Catholics have said good-Bye to that law now.

Similarly, there is no abrogation of any word of the Quran. If at all, it could be that the earlier verses ( of the bibleNt etc.) may have been abrogated by the verses of the Quran.

I have yet to see any verse of the Quran which maybe said to be abrogated.
**

Then you don’t know your own koran, sir. Once again you bring in something that we are not talking about. We are talking about the koran, not the Bible.

As for you are unable to ‘see any verse of the koran which maybe said to be abrogated’, then you are also blind. I got it from many clerics, on videos and transcripts, that there is indeed compulsion in religion.

 

[ralphinal]

I think that the problem is one of terminology.

Muslim posters on here have said that the killing of an apostate is a matter of treason, not religion.

The jizya tax is for the protection of those not required to serve in the army.

To me, both seem like matters of compulsion in religion.

As far as what actually occures in lands where Islam is in power, if this is not mainstream Islam, how can it be fixed?

 

[R_not]

I think that the problem is one of terminology.

Muslim posters on here have said that the killing of an apostate is a matter of treason, not religion.

The jizya tax is for the protection of those not required to serve in the army.

To me, both seem like matters of compulsion in religion.

As far as what actually occures in lands where Islam is in power, if this is not mainstream Islam, how can it be fixed?

:doh2:

you are right. I forgot all about the redefinitions of words of muslims.

They are indeed compulsion in religion - but since muslims think that islam is all good, and all whatever - they think we should just joyfully be running to accept it. gag (there is no barfing icon) It reminds me of the story of the lemmings all running over the cliff.

 

[R_not]

Here are some hadiths:

Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:
Narrated Abu Musa:

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostles.

Al-Tirmidhi HadithHadith 3466 Narrated byUthman ibn Affan

AbuUmamah ibn Sahl ibn Hunayf told that when Uthman ibn Affan was besieged he looked down and said: I adjure you by Allah. Are you aware that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of three reasons: fornication after marriage, or unbelief after accepting Islam, or wrongfully killing someone, for which he may be killed”? “I swear by Allah that I have not committed fornication before or after the coming of Islam, or apostatised since I swore allegiance to Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him), or killed anyone whom Allah has declared inviolate; so for what reason do you want to kill me?”

Muwatta
Book 36, Number 36.18.15:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “If someone changes his deen - strike his neck!”

The meaning of the statement of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in our opinion and Allah knows best, is that “if someone changes his deen, strike his neck!” refers to those who leave Islam for other than it - like the heretics and their like, about whom it is known. They are killed without being called to tawba because their tawba is not recognised. They were hiding their kufr and publishing their Islam, so I do not think that one calls such people to tawba, and one does not accept their word. As for the one who goes out of Islam to something else and divulges it, one calls him to tawba. If he does not turn in tawba, he is killed. If there are people in that situation, I think that one should call them to Islam and call them to tawba. If they turn in tawba, that is accepted from them. If they do not turn in tawba, they are killed. That does not refer as we see it, and Allah knows best, to those who come out of Judaism to Christianity or from Christianity to Judaism, nor to someone who changes his deen from the various forms of deen except for Islam. Whoever comes out of Islam to other than it and divulges that, that is the one who is referred to, and Allah knows best!

Basically all the accepted hadiths have a law about leaving islam - and it ain’t a farewell card.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You are not being oppressed in our lands. but, it is quite the opposite for Christians, or any other non-muslim, in muslim lands. Or in such areas as kashmir and India, or now in Bulgaria. And we know this happens elsewhere in Africa and Southeast Asia.

Your claim of oppression is false and tiring. No one hates you except your own prophet who told everyone that women are not as intelligent as a man, and most of them are in hell.

Abrogation

As you can see surah 2 is indeed abrogated.

There is no proof of that, none at all.

Surah 2–al-Baqara–is the LONGEST surah in the Qur’an. You won’t find any scholar of Islam who says it has been abrogated. Whatever that was you just posted is a complete and total fabrication.

 

[Sister_Amy]

OK, so what does no compulsion in religion mean to you?

Forcing someone to believe or accept a religion as their own.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’ve been waiting for a response from Muslim posters since Feb. 12th (in the “Abusing Muhammad” thread) regarding the subject of “no compulsion” and the killing of apostates. I have yet to receive a response (other than from planten who has condemned the practice of killing apostates. )

I’m still waiting for Sister Amy (and other Muslim posters) to answer this and clarify their position. This was what a sheikh wrote (the bolded is mine):

And this was Sister Amy’s response (See post #161 for reference):

Here is what I want answered:

Then do you explicitly condemn the killing of people who simply leave Islam and wish to practice another faith?

You ought to know I’m going to answer such a silly question. As I have explained numerous times, the answer is far more complicated, and will change based on various circumstances.

However, as for a person today, who leaves Islam to practice another faith, and does not in any other way wage war against Islam, then no, they shouldn’t be killed.

 

[Sister_Amy]

yes, a task that would be much easier when people are out here that know islam and know that muslims practice taqiyya/kithman and will say anything to make it seem like islam is good and peaceful.

We have from too many clerics mouths that there is indeed compulsion. We also have from too many muslim’s own hands the deaths of many who have left islam, or who are being terrorized because they are not muslims, or who are being deceived into reverting to sin, oh er I mean islam. And we have too many who are silence and do nothing in their own religion to stop all of this except they are hellbent, and work tirelessly, on telling us that all of the above is not true.

You haven’t got anything from a real scholar of Islam. There is no clerical class in islam, and lying is forbidden in Islam. Just because you’ve got some average joe Muslims out there who break the law, doesn’t change the law.

You, more than anyone else on this forum that I’ve seen, are working hard to spread lies, and deceit, and the worst sin on the face of the planet.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think that the problem is one of terminology.

Muslim posters on here have said that the killing of an apostate is a matter of treason, not religion.

The jizya tax is for the protection of those not required to serve in the army.

To me, both seem like matters of compulsion in religion.

As far as what actually occures in lands where Islam is in power, if this is not mainstream Islam, how can it be fixed?

None of that even applies since there is no Islamic state.

Didn’t you know that?

Paying a tax is not force in religion. Or else all Americans would be forced to follow religion, wouldn’t they? A treason sentence isn’t force in religion, either. America also has one.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Then you don’t know your own koran, sir. Once again you bring in something that we are not talking about. We are talking about the koran, not the Bible.

As for you are unable to ‘see any verse of the koran which maybe said to be abrogated’, then you are also blind. I got it from many clerics, on videos and transcripts, that there is indeed compulsion in religion.

He knows the Qur’an much better than you do.

 

[Sister_Amy]

R_not, just cut it out.

You’ve been shown to be a liar again and again. Give it a rest.

 

[R_not]

There is no proof of that, none at all.

Surah 2–al-Baqara–is the LONGEST surah in the Qur’an. You won’t find any scholar of Islam who says it has been abrogated. Whatever that was you just posted is a complete and total fabrication.

Who cares if it is long or short? It was abrogated.

Another article on abrogation

According to some Muslim commentators, more than 260 verses of the Quran have been abrogated. Others concede only 5 verses while others deny there is any abrogation. Thus, there is no general agreement as to what all the abrogated verses are. This can become a point of confusion as sometimes, these abrogated verses deals with matters of life and death. For example, most scholars believe that the stoning verse for adultery for married persons, which was once in the Qur’an, has been abrogated from recitation, but remains in effect in the Sharia
…
Allah removes what he wills, ar-Rad 13:39. brings one better or similar to replace it, al-Baqarah 2:106. ... forgotten, al-Ala 87:6-7.
God can withdraw any revelation, Bani Isra’il 17:86.

Ironic that the surahs that some say were abrogated that deal with stoning - still are in sharia laws.

That ‘perfect’ word of god isn’t even that perfect either.
Such a fickle god that allah.

Basically what we have here is a hodgepodge of stuff that is in the koran. Because there is no one source for it, the muslims should also be asked ‘what version of the koran do you read since there are many and no one has a concensus on which one is the real one?’. And since there it is really up to what scholar one wants to listen to - yes, I chose to believe all the scholars that say the koran was abrogated.

And if sister amy wants to believe the scholar that says it wasn’t - who is right? (the dualism in islam comes up again) It seems that when the dualism of islam comes up that means one will have to take what most of the adherents believe in. And that is that most of them go along with the ‘there is indeed compulsion in religion’ since the sharia laws agree with that.

And especially that has to be taken into consideration in the case of islam because it seems that even though there might be a whole heck of a lot of ‘peaceful’ ones - they do nothing to change the laws, or the behavior of their violent ones.

 

[ralphinal]

None of that even applies since there is no Islamic state.

Didn’t you know that?

I did know that. So, is it fair to say that in no parts of the world are apostate Muslims executed? Is it fair to say that in no place where there is a Muslim majority are Christians targeted? Harrassed? Not allowed to worship freely?

Paying a tax is not force in religion. Or else all Americans would be forced to follow religion, wouldn’t they? A treason sentence isn’t force in religion, either. America also has one.

No, but a tax assessed to those who do not follow a specific religion is the issue. Again, the death penulty for leaving a religion is the issue.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I did know that. So, is it fair to say that in no parts of the world are apostate Muslims executed? Is it fair to say that in no place where there is a Muslim majority are Christians targeted? Harrassed? Not allowed to worship freely?

It is fair to say that in no parts of the world today can “apostates” be legally executed–that is, according to proper implementation of Shari’ah. If they are executed (and it does happen sometimes), then it is malpractice of justice, and not according Shari’ah.

Moreover, if Christians are ever targeted, or harassed, or forbidden to worship freely in a Muslim country, that is also a violation of Shari’ah.

No, but a tax assessed to those who do not follow a specific religion is the issue. Again, the death penalty for leaving a religion is the issue.

Perhaps you don’t understand what the religion is. Leaving the religion is more than just a change of heart. It’s not like leaving your wife, leaving your school, getting a haircut, or changing your clothes. It’s pretty serious.

But since nowhere in the world today can jizya be legally levied, nor can apostates be legally executed, none of this should be an issue at all, should it?

 

[R_not]

I did know that. So, is it fair to say that in no parts of the world are apostate Muslims executed? Is it fair to say that in no place where there is a Muslim majority are Christians targeted? Harrassed? Not allowed to worship freely?

No, but a tax assessed to those who do not follow a specific religion is the issue. Again, the death penulty for leaving a religion is the issue.

There is actually a muslim state - it is called the ‘umma’. Wherever they are they consider themselves a part of the umma and she knows that. It is a sort of statehood within our countries too. That is why so many of them are considering themselves muslim first and citizens of whatever country they are in second.

It is too convenient for them to say there is ‘no muslim state’. Their definitions is one where they twist the meanings.

 

[Jay53]

You ought to know I’m going to answer such a silly question. As I have explained numerous times, the answer is far more complicated, and will change based on various circumstances.

However, as for a person today, who leaves Islam to practice another faith, and does not in any other way wage war against Islam, then no, they shouldn’t be killed.

That’s a cop out if I ever read one! :tsktsk: What’s considered “waging war against Islam”? Speaking against it? Openly practicing another faith where you live and used to practice Islam? Pointing out the violence in it? Criticizing Muhammad? Protesting the implementation of sharia law in one’s country? I would venture to say all kinds of excuses could be invented as to why an apostate is “waging war against Islam” and should be killed.

And is it such a “silly question” to those being killed? I think they would have a different opinion about that.

 

[R_not]

R_not, just cut it out.

You’ve been shown to be a liar again and again. Give it a rest.

I don’t lie, ma’am. While you belong to a religion that tells its adherents to lie to us, it seems that maybe you should take your own advice.

If you don’t like what you hear then discuss the message. By bashing me it just tells me that you don’t have too much else.

Thanks. :clapping:

 

[R_not]

That’s a cop out if I ever read one! :tsktsk: What’s considered “waging war against Islam”? Speaking against it? Openly practicing another faith where you live and used to practice Islam? Pointing out the violence in it? Criticizing Muhammad? Protesting the implementation of sharia law in one’s country? I would venture to say all kinds of excuses could be invented as to why an apostate is “waging war against Islam” and should be killed.

And is it such a “silly question” to those being killed? I think they would have a different opinion about that.

Oh man - when I read her answer I just had to cut/paste her note. That is a keeper. I usually keep the notes from the muslims when they finally admit what their religion is all about.

You got her to admit quite a bit in her note. I congratulate you. :clapping:

 

[R_not]

It is fair to say that in no parts of the world today can “apostates” be legally executed–that is, according to proper implementation of Shari’ah. If they are executed (and it does happen sometimes), then it is malpractice of justice, and not according Shari’ah.

Moreover, if Christians are ever targeted, or harassed, or forbidden to worship freely in a Muslim country, that is also a violation of Shari’ah.

Perhaps you don’t understand what the religion is. Leaving the religion is more than just a change of heart. It’s not like leaving your wife, leaving your school, getting a haircut, or changing your clothes. It’s pretty serious.

But since nowhere in the world today can jizya be legally levied, nor can apostates be legally executed, none of this should be an issue at all, should it?

Are you kidding me with this note? Do you have a clue as to what is going on in the world today, especially in islam? Do you go past your cleric for any news as to what the muslims do to others? How about the kidnappings/forced conversions/rapes of girls and women? Or about the driving off the Christians in Iraq, Pakistan, and other places and stealing their lands? Or how about the killing of 7 priests in 2007-2008 alone, and this year one priest was burned to death? I can’t even tell you how many have died around this globe since 9/11 - Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc by muslim hands JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT MUSLIMS. I won’t even go into how many died before that! Just because they were not muslims.

Or how many muslims died because they were in the way of muslims trying to kill others?

This is just sick. The number of churches destroyed by muslims and according to sharia laws they cannot be rebuilt. Of course, Christians don’t need a church, but it is also the number of people that have died and you just write it off in a few sentences like it just never happened. ladedahlaalaaalaaa I mean are we talking to someone from outer space here?

Ignoring these things don’t mean they do not happen. Or is it that you truly believe that they are not human beings because they are not ‘believers’ in your god?