'No compulsion in religiion' is not true in islam

[Sister_Amy]

A billion people speaking together has power. If 80% of them want your form of Islam to be in charge, it should be no problem.

Let’s take any one of these nations where we see these problems. Say, Sudan. If 80% of the Muslims there do not want Christians and Anamists killed, or apostates executed, they should stand up and say so.

I know, they will risk death if they do so. But, aren’t some things worth that? A couple hundred years ago, a small group of men stood up to the most powerful empire of the era. We ended up with the United States. Sometimes, doing what is right is hard, but someone must do it. Sometimes you must stand when sitting is easier.

You say this like rousing a billion people is something easy. Most of those billion-plus people aren’t really interested in Islam, don’t know much about Islam, and are worried about feeding their families. Not everyone has a cushy life like here in the USA.

 

[sedonaman]

This is an interesting idea, and I should think on its face, one that a Christian would agree with. …

Do you understand what she is saying? It means oppression of Muslims is worse than slaughter of non-Muslims.

 

[Jay53]

When a person became a Muslim, they pledged allegiance to the Islamic state. This is not the case anymore, but that historical angle needs to be analyzed when discussing this issue.

Why? If there is no Islamic state to pledge allegiance to, how does that affect someone changing their religion today. For example, in the United States, if a Muslim converts to Christianity and then practices that openly in their community and openly criticizes Muhammad and his teachings, does that warrant a death sentence?

Oppression is worse than slaughter.

So, in other words, non-Muslims should fight sharia law so that we do not become oppressed (dhimmis) because that would be worse than dying. My guess is that you would not agree with that. So oppression of non-Muslims so that they cannot speak freely and criticize Islam is OK and Muslims should be free to establish sharia law and oppress everyone else? :dts:

 

[dzheremi]

Do you understand what she is saying? It means oppression of Muslims is worse than slaughter of non-Muslims.

Well, in fairness, I would like to wait and see how SHE explains it, if I am indeed not understanding it. She is the one who wrote it, after all.

If you are right, that is horrifying.

 

[ralphinal]

You say this like rousing a billion people is something easy. Most of those billion-plus people aren’t really interested in Islam, don’t know much about Islam, and are worried about feeding their families. Not everyone has a cushy life like here in the USA.

I understand that. I really do. What I do not understand is why Muslims with money/education give to groups that foster poor images of Islam. Why do Muslims who can effect some sort of change not do so.

I feel for Muslims like you. I really do. You are willing to come on here and stand up for your faith. You are willing to take a stand. You are willing to convert to Islam in a place and time where Muslims are not the most popular people in the area, and you are willing to stick by and live your faith in a visible way. Then, I see a report from a unbiased place that says up to 80% of the aid sent by the US to the Palestinians will be used for weapons and terrorist activities while the people suffer. ANd I wonder where are the Muslims in that area who feel like you do? I see stories of Churches being burned in Indonesia, and I wonder where are the Muslims like you there? I read about Christians being killed in Sudan, and I wonder where are the Muslims like you there?

I vividly remember the videos of Muslims celebrating 9/11. I wonder where are the Muslims like you in that time?

I am just so confused. I have read that a majority of Muslims spend a lot of time memorizing the Qur’an. I see that many study Islam to levels that we cannot understand. Islamic Studies is the most common major at universities in many Muslims nations. Yet you say they do not know Islam.

 

[neploho]

I understand that. I really do. What I do not understand is why Muslims with money/education give to groups that foster poor images of Islam. Why do Muslims who can effect some sort of change not do so.

I feel for Muslims like you. I really do. You are willing to come on here and stand up for your faith. You are willing to take a stand. You are willing to convert to Islam in a place and time where Muslims are not the most popular people in the area, and you are willing to stick by and live your faith in a visible way. Then, I see a report from a unbiased place that says up to 80% of the aid sent by the US to the Palestinians will be used for weapons and terrorist activities while the people suffer. ANd I wonder where are the Muslims in that area who feel like you do? I see stories of Churches being burned in Indonesia, and I wonder where are the Muslims like you there? I read about Christians being killed in Sudan, and I wonder where are the Muslims like you there?

I vividly remember the videos of Muslims celebrating 9/11. I wonder where are the Muslims like you in that time?

I am just so confused. I have read that a majority of Muslims spend a lot of time memorizing the Qur’an. I see that many study Islam to levels that we cannot understand. Islamic Studies is the most common major at universities in many Muslims nations. Yet you say they do not know Islam.

I suppose the question to ask is how many individuals in the muslim world do you think go on to higher education to major in Islamic Studies?

 

[Sister_Amy]

How is the idea of the Islamic state a thing of the past? Isn’t this the ultimate goal of all the Islamic fighters/terrorists around the world - to establish the worldwide Islamic government to rule us all like in the days of the Khalifat?

You’re linking two unrelated ideas. First of all, let me say that there is at present no Islamic state, no khalifah. Your terrorists/fighters/extremists don’t intend to establish worldwide islamic government to rule all of you. They do, however, probably want to establish a khalifah, which is NOT the same thing. All Muslims want a khalifah. I do. And to be honest with you, I am working in my way toward that end. But not to rule the world, subjugate non-Muslim or any of that other non-sense that you might have heard. Rather, the purpose of a khalifah is to rule the Muslims. To protect the Muslims. I don’t think any Muslim can see what has happened in Gaza, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, or in Iraq, and not wish that there was someone to protect all these people! A khilafah is the answer to that. Not to rule non-Muslims, but only to rule the Muslims.

Now, an Islamic state would be one with a khalifah. An Islamic state, not Islamic planet, mind you. Ruling the lands where the Muslims are living… i.e., Islamic state. There is no Islamic state today. However, the matter of Islamic state is not the issue.

When Muhammad (saws) was alive, anyone who became a Muslim pledged allegiance to his state, to his leadership, or to the leadership of successive khulafah after him. That does not happen anymore. People become Muslim without pledging allegiance to any government. That’s why then, an apostasy meant treason. Today it doesn’t.

This is an interesting idea, and I should think on its face, one that a Christian would agree with. After all, there are sooooo many martyrs for the faith all around the world, particularly in the Muslim-majority lands. The difference, however, is that 9 times out of 10, martyrdom is brought to the Christians’ doorstep at the hands of someone else simply because they will not convert or be extorted (remember Fathers Ragheed Ganni and Paulos Faraj Rahho, and all the others who have been killed for refusing to renounce their faith!) , while it seems that Muslims will to bring it to themselves, if it means they can free their land from “oppressors” (even in cases where those “oppressors” are other Muslims, or when the infidel governments have given the Muslims rights to autonomy so long as they do not attempt to seceede or extend their Shari’a law beyond their community).

So, yes, oppression is worse than slaughter…but self-slaughter in the process of killing others is worse than either.

Self-slaughter, by which I’ll assume you mean suicide, is forbidden in Islam.

I did not mention martyrdom, not one bit. I said oppression is worse than slaughter. Meaning that injustice, the oppression of people against their will and the usurping of their rights, is even worse than killing.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Do you understand what she is saying? It means oppression of Muslims is worse than slaughter of non-Muslims.

Is it?

What about oppression of non-Muslims? In fact, oppression of non-Muslims is reason enough for war, to protect those non-Muslims and save them from oppression. Then, their oppression is worse than the killing of Muslims.

See? Oppression of non-Muslims is worse than killing of Muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I suppose the question to ask is how many individuals in the muslim world do you think go on to higher education to major in Islamic Studies?

Not enough do.

In the last century or so, the brightest and best students go on to become doctors and lawyers and engineers… it was the worse students who became the scholars of Islam. A real tragedy–you see what it has done to the Muslims also.

But now more are going on to study islamic studies. Today even, I am attending a seminar that is part of an accredited course toward obtaining a degree in Islamic studies.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I understand that. I really do. What I do not understand is why Muslims with money/education give to groups that foster poor images of Islam. Why do Muslims who can effect some sort of change not do so.

I feel for Muslims like you. I really do. You are willing to come on here and stand up for your faith. You are willing to take a stand. You are willing to convert to Islam in a place and time where Muslims are not the most popular people in the area, and you are willing to stick by and live your faith in a visible way. Then, I see a report from a unbiased place that says up to 80% of the aid sent by the US to the Palestinians will be used for weapons and terrorist activities while the people suffer. ANd I wonder where are the Muslims in that area who feel like you do? I see stories of Churches being burned in Indonesia, and I wonder where are the Muslims like you there? I read about Christians being killed in Sudan, and I wonder where are the Muslims like you there?

I vividly remember the videos of Muslims celebrating 9/11. I wonder where are the Muslims like you in that time?

I am just so confused. I have read that a majority of Muslims spend a lot of time memorizing the Qur’an. I see that many study Islam to levels that we cannot understand. Islamic Studies is the most common major at universities in many Muslims nations. Yet you say they do not know Islam.

Did you not know that Muslims are being killed in the Sudan also? Did you know that Muslims are being killed in Gaza? And starved? And blown up? Didn’t you know that Muslims are being oppressed in Indonesia also?

I for one am pretty pissed to see that money meant to buy medicine for sick people in Gaza, or for food, actually went to go buy more stupid rockets. What can I do about it? What can you do about it? Sending more money isn’t solving the problem is it? People have been throwing money at Darfur for years–it’s not solving the problem, is it?

Throwing money at Israel isn’t solving the problem either, by the way.

So I’ll tell you what I am doing–it is the only thing I can do, and something I feel responsible for, and that is spreading the message of Islam, to anyone who will listen.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why? If there is no Islamic state to pledge allegiance to, how does that affect someone changing their religion today. For example, in the United States, if a Muslim converts to Christianity and then practices that openly in their community and openly criticizes Muhammad and his teachings, does that warrant a death sentence?

It absolutely does NOT warrant a death sentence. If someone decided to execute such a person, he would be totally out of bounds, that would be a very serious violation of justice.

So, in other words, non-Muslims should fight sharia law so that we do not become oppressed (dhimmis) because that would be worse than dying. My guess is that you would not agree with that. So oppression of non-Muslims so that they cannot speak freely and criticize Islam is OK and Muslims should be free to establish sharia law and oppress everyone else? :dts:

No. Shari’ah law is not oppressive.

 

[sedonaman]

What about oppression of non-Muslims? In fact, oppression of non-Muslims is reason enough for war, to protect those non-Muslims and save them from oppression. Then, their oppression is worse than the killing of Muslims.

See? Oppression of non-Muslims is worse than killing of Muslims.

What a laugh. When did Muslims ever come to the aid of oppressed non-Muslims?

 

[neploho]

Not enough do.

In the last century or so, the brightest and best students go on to become doctors and lawyers and engineers… it was the worse students who became the scholars of Islam. A real tragedy–you see what it has done to the Muslims also.

But now more are going on to study islamic studies. Today even, I am attending a seminar that is part of an accredited course toward obtaining a degree in Islamic studies.

It was a rhetorical question for the poster

 

[Jay53]

It absolutely does NOT warrant a death sentence. If someone decided to execute such a person, he would be totally out of bounds, that would be a very serious violation of justice.

At least we agree on that. But it still wouldn’t help the dead apostate who was killed by some extremist who “claims” he is only fulfilling Islamic dictates.

No. Shari’ah law is not oppressive.

For who? Under sharia law no one, Muslim or non-Muslim can criticize Muhammad, the Quran or sharia law.

Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.

In 1989, Iran’s Supreme Leader issued a fatwa (legal decree) to assassinate Salman Rushdie, a novelist, who wrote Satanic Verses, which includes questions about the angel Gabriel’s role in inspiring the Quran. Now the extremists in the highest levels in Iran have recently renewed the fatwa.

In 2005, The Muslim Council of Victoria, Australia, brought a lawsuit against two pastors for holding a conference and posting articles critiquing Islam. Three Muslims attended the conference and felt offended. The two pastors have been convicted based on Australia’s vilification law. While on trial, one of them wanted to read from the Quran on domestic violence (see 9, above), but the lawyer representing the Council would not allow it. The pastors are appealing their conviction.

In 2005, British Muslims have been campaigning to pass a religious hate speech law in England’s parliament. They have succeeded. Their ability to propagandize has not been curtailed. Opponents of the law say that it stifles free speech that may criticize Muhammad, the Quran, and Islam.

Here are the classical legal rulings.

First, the Muslim deserves death for doing any of the following (Reliance of the Traveler pp. 597—98, o8.7):

(1) Reviling Allah or his Messenger; (2) being sarcastic about ‘Allah’s name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat’; (3) denying any verse of the Quran or ‘anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it’; (4) holding that ‘any of Allah’s messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent’; (5) reviling the religion of Islam; (6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; (7) denying that Allah intended ‘the Prophet’s message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.’

Don’t you view that as a violation of free speech? Sometimes I think you forget that you live in the U.S. where you are currently protected by our laws. I think if you actually lived in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan where freedoms are curtailed, especially for women you would have a different opinion. If you lived under the Taliban and their sharia law do you honestly believe you would even be in school studying all the things you study?

During the rule of the Taliban (1996 - 2001), women were treated worse than in any other time or by any other society. They were forbidden to work, leave the house without a male escort, not allowed to seek medical help from a male doctor, and forced to cover themselves from head to toe, even covering their eyes. Women who were doctors and teachers before, suddenly were forced to be beggars and even prostitutes in order to feed their families.

Since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001, many would agree that the political and cultural position of Afghan women has improved substantially. The recently adopted Afghan constitution states that “the citizens of Afghanistan - whether man or woman- have equal rights and duties before the law”. So far, women have been allowed to return back to work, the government no longer forces them to wear the all covering burqa, and they even have been appointed to prominent positions in the government. Despite all these changes many challenges still remain. The repression of women is still prevalent in rural areas where many families still restrict their own mothers, daughters, wives and sisters from participation in public life. They are still forced into marriages and denied a basic education. Numerous school for girls have been burned down and little girls have even been poisoned to death for daring to go to school.

• by Abdullah Qazi afghan-web.com/woman/

And what’s to keep the Islamic government from imposing their rules on non-Muslims. They’re already trying it in Indonesia.

Jakarta (AsiaNews) - The controversial local laws inspired by sharia are now being applied to non-Muslim citizens. Female students who do not wear the headscarf are suspended, and few have the courage to rebel, because of fear of reprisals from fundamentalists infidelsarecool.com/2008/04/25/indonesia-sharia-law-forcing-non-muslims-to-wear-hijab/

.

Sorry, but I find sharia law extremely oppressive and want nothing to do with it. I pray that God will protect our country from it and protect those currently made to suffer under it elsewhere in the world.

 

[neploho]

What a laugh. When did Muslims ever come to the aid of oppressed non-Muslims?

Catholics are often the first to point out that the normative principals of a faith are not dependent on the actualy practice of the flawed men who are part of that faith.

I have seen something of this theme in Qutb’s Milestones but it would be interesting if SisterAmy could point to an example of this in classical Islamic Sharia’ or fiqh

 

[sedonaman]

Catholics are often the first to point out that the normative principals of a faith are not dependent on the actualy practice of the flawed men who are part of that faith.

I agree, but with 1,400 years of Muslim/Christian “dialog” behind us, there must have been at least one instance where Muslims, following some Islamic principle, came to the aid of persecuted Christians. Of course, they can always claim that they “aided” Christians by “protecting” them from persecution by collecting the jizya. But that would be like saying the Mafia came to the aid of shopkeepers by charging them protection money.

I have seen something of this theme in Qutb’s Milestones but it would be interesting if SisterAmy could point to an example of this in classical Islamic Sharia’ or fiqh

I will await her answer, but I won’t go without chocolate waiting for anything meaningful by The Golden Rule. The wait will kill me.

 

[Jay53]

Here’s another example of “no compulsion in religion”. I apologize if someone has already posted this man’s story.

Anger over Christian convert in Kabul who faces death
From Tim Albone in Kabul

ABDUL RAHMAN, a 41-year-old Afghan, was a Muslim for 25 years before he began working for an international Christian group helping his fellow countrymen in Pakistan. Within a couple of years he had converted to Christianity.

Fourteen years later, the decision may cost him his life. After four years in Peshawar, Mr. Rahman spent the next nine in Germany. His problems began when he returned to Afghanistan in 2002 and tried to recover his two daughters, now aged 13 and 14, who were living with his parents in Kabul.

His parents refused to return them. The matter went to the police, with the parents complaining that their son had become violent. Mr. Rahman’s father then denounced him as a convert. Mr. Rahman was promptly arrested, and** found to possess a Bible. He now languishes in Kabul central prison and will, if convicted of an “attack on Islam”, face the death penalty under Afghanistan’s new constitution. **
Mr. Rahman’s case is shaping up as a trial of strength between Afghanistan’s religious conservatives and reformers. “The constitution says Islam is the religion of Afghanistan, yet it also mentions the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Article 18 specifically forbids this kind of recourse,” one human rights expert said in Kabul last night. “It really highlights the problem the judiciary faces.”

News of his plight is likely to cause outrage in predominantly Christian countries such as Britain and America, whose troops are fighting to free Afghanistan from the religious zealotry of the Taliban.

The Bishop of Rochester, the Right Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, who leads the Church of England’s dialogue with Islam, told The Times: “I’m amazed that the constitution that has been agreed in post-Taliban Afghanistan under the very eyes of the international community should allow this kind of thing to take place — for a person to be arrested for having been converted 14 years ago and to be threatened with execution simply for his beliefs.

“The British Army in Afghanistan is losing soldiers there through injury and death. Is the Army there to uphold this kind of thing? I thought we were there to promote democracy and freedom.”

Alan Simpson, Labour MP for Nottingham South, told The Times: “We are asked to believe that in Afghanistan we are defending a more secular and democratic state when in fact the likes of Abdul Rahman face the death penalty. What sort of democracy are we defending? All reports suggest that the Taliban are coming in through the back door and their views through the front door. Hamid Karzai (the Afghan President) needs to be told that this absurdity must stop.”

Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrats’ defense spokesman, said: “This is a horrifying situation and it makes a mockery of the efforts we are making to bring Afghanistan back into the international community. We have committed many soldiers to the situation in Afghanistan, many of whom will be committed Christians; we have spent huge amounts of money and committed resources and so I think we can take a strong moral position on this and explain to the Afghan authorities that to prosecute or even kill someone for having a different faith is unacceptable.”

Mr. Rahman is being prosecuted for an attack on Islam, the punishment for which, under the draft constitution established in 2004, is death.

“The Attorney-General is emphasizing he should be hung,” Judge Alhaj Ansarullah Mawlawy Zada, who will be trying his case, told The Times. “It is a crime to convert to Christianity from Islam. He is teasing and insulting his family by converting. In your country (Britain) two women can marry; that is very strange. **In this country we have the perfect constitution, it is Islamic law and it is illegal to be a Christian and it should be punished.” **
The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, has said that he would drop charges if Mr. Rahman converted back to Islam, but he has so far refused to do so.

“He would be forgiven if he changed back, but he said he was a Christian and would always remain one . . . We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty.” In the first hearing of Mr. Rahman’s case, Judge Zada, the head of the Primary Court, said that a verdict would be reached within two months.

If the judge imposes the death penalty, Mr. Rahman will still have two avenues of appeal under Afghan law — the Provincial Court and the Supreme Court. The death penalty has to be ratified by President Karzai.

truthandgrace.com/muslimlaw.htm

This man’s “attack on Islam” was apparently possessing a Bible. THIS type of garbage is why I dislike Islam and sharia law. I have no problem with Muslims praying or how they do it etc., but it’s the abuse of human rights and the plan to implement this garbage everywhere that really irritates me.

Maybe some of the Muslims here who love sharia law can visit this gentleman in prison and quote him the Quran where there is no compulsion in religion and explain to him how sharia law is not oppressive.

Edit: OK, I just read that this man was released (probably because of the publicity of his case) and went to Italy. So our Muslim friends here will have to go to Italy to discuss the wonderful non-oppressive aspects of sharia law with him there.

 

[R_not]

You haven’t got anything from a real scholar of Islam. There is no clerical class in islam, and lying is forbidden in Islam. Just because you’ve got some average joe Muslims out there who break the law, doesn’t change the law.

You, more than anyone else on this forum that I’ve seen, are working hard to spread lies, and deceit, and the worst sin on the face of the planet.

Well, since you don’t read my links - how do you know? As for any clerical classes in islam - is that what you took? If so, no I will not be taking any clerical classes in islam. You are a good example of why I wouldn’t take a clerical class in islam.

No, I am not spreading lies and deceit, and yes - deceit is very much a part of islam. (for anyone not familiar with what I am talking about - taqiyya/kithman. )We have posted so many links to show your own texts, and prophet, and god allah has so much about deceit and commanding the followers of islam to lie when need be, that it is just mind boggling that anyone that grew up knowing that lying is not the way to be. How can you trust anyone who lies to you? Therefore, how can I trust anything from islam who has this sort of a command?

Matt 5:37 ‘Let what you say be simply ‘yes’ or ‘no’, anything more than this comes from evil.’

I don’t understand why you say I am spreading lies, since I only take your own texts and others have examined these texts and we just show others what they really are instead of someone practicing da’wa who is deceiving us about islam.

What don’t you understand about your own hadiths?:

Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”

What don’t you understand about your own koran?:

“and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers” Sura 3:54

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

Qur’an 66:2 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

Qur’an 40:32 “O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.”

there certainly are plenty more of these types of things. Oh tell me, that the circumstances of lying is of some war - some war that mohammed started! Or to break some peace agreement because he didn’t get enough loot and/or slaves. I mean, this is just despicable! and you think this is ok?!

 

[R_not]

Here’s another example of “no compulsion in religion”. I apologize if someone has already posted this man’s story.

This man’s “attack on Islam” was apparently possessing a Bible. THIS type of garbage is why I dislike Islam and sharia law. I have no problem with Muslims praying or how they do it etc., but it’s the abuse of human rights and the plan to implement this garbage everywhere that really irritates me.

Maybe some of the Muslims here who love sharia law can visit this gentleman in prison and quote him the Quran where there is no compulsion in religion and explain to him how sharia law is not oppressive.

Edit: OK, I just read that this man was released (probably because of the publicity of his case) and went to Italy. So our Muslim friends here will have to go to Italy to discuss the wonderful non-oppressive aspects of sharia law with him there.

We need to pray for this poor soul, and his daughters! And any others in situations like this under islam. This is what too many muslims in our lands either ignore, deny, or will just say something to appease us and do nothing about it if they are blogging from a muslim country. There are many more, or so they tell us, ‘peaceful’ muslims that this does not have to be the way of things. Or is it that we are misinformed about this too - the number of ‘peaceful’ muslims?! Just laying back and doing nothing is being just as guilty as those who are not considered peaceful. ‘silence is consent’, per mohammed.

And to get the word out to anyone we can because if we don’t this could very well become a reality everywhere.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What a laugh. When did Muslims ever come to the aid of oppressed non-Muslims?

It has been the goal of Islam from the get-go.