No Consciousness or Perception in Buddhist Nirvana?

[Reuben_J]

He said so:

[The Buddha said:] "As long as my knowing and seeing how things are, was not quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the four noble truths, I did not claim in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, with its princes and men to have discovered the full Awakening that is supreme.

“But as soon as my knowing and seeing how things are, was quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the four noble truths, then I claimed in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, its princes and men to have discovered the full Awakening that is supreme. Knowing and seeing arose in me thus: ‘My heart’s deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being.’”

– Dhammacakkappavattana sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 56.11

rossum

Thank you. What does the passage means?

How did he know this, ‘My heart’s deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being.’"

How did he know it was the ‘last birth’?

 

[Emese]

I think verses such as John 10:30 are evidence of Jesus’ “super-human” attributes. The question, for me is, how does one interpret such statements, and how does one account for the evolving “Godliness” of Jesus from the 1st to the 4th Gospel?

I also think, especially within Catholicism, a definition needs to be given on who is the Father and who is God?

Yes, I do believe that it is a matter of interpretation. There are so many religions, and even the christian churches have different views on what the Bible teaches.

I see the same regarding the reincarnation issue. Do buddhists believe that human souls can only be reborn as humans or can they come back as animals too?

Some would liken the christian Trinity to the Hindu Brahma-Visnu-Shiva understanding. Are they 3 separate Gods or the different attributes of the same One God?

 

[Emese]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

No I was not aware of any slur or slang term. The yannas I’ve always known as the vehicles. Lesser, middle, and greater.

Absolutely. If you really know what’s going on. You can use the two to obtain enlightenment.

Would you be actually practising both religions? What made you choose christinanity as well?

 

[rossum]

Thank you. What does the passage means?

This is the Buddha’s first sermon after his enlightenment. He is explaining to his previous pre-enlightenment companions what he has achieved.

How did he know this, ‘My heart’s deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being.’"

He was enlightened. He knew it. How did Jesus know that He was God?

How did he know it was the ‘last birth’?

All who are not enlightened get reborn. Only those who are enlightened can escape being reborn. Birth leads to old age, illness, suffering and death. If you want to avoid suffering and death, then you need to avoid being born. That means attaining enlightenment, otherwise you will be born again and again and again.

rossum

 

[Reuben_J]

This is the Buddha’s first sermon after his enlightenment. He is explaining to his previous pre-enlightenment companions what he has achieved.

Okay, noted.

He was enlightened. He knew it. How did Jesus know that He was God?

Yes, he knew it but there was evidence that he was informed about it too. “This is my beloved Son … .” We can take his word for it but we are revealed about his divinity too.

All who are not enlightened get reborn. Only those who are enlightened can escape being reborn. Birth leads to old age, illness, suffering and death. If you want to avoid suffering and death, then you need to avoid being born. That means attaining enlightenment, otherwise you will be born again and again and again.
Rossum

I will not press you with this; you don’t have to oblige. My question was how did he know it was the final birth? You said by his enlightenment. How did then he know he was enlightened? Is there a bench-mark, a parameter for it? What is the standard of enlightenment?

 

[notself]

Here is a bit more on the first discourse where the Buddha explains:

The discourses of the Buddha are similar to zip files. The passage refers to the Four Noble Truths.

1. There is suffering/stress.
2. There is a cause of suffering/stress.
3. There is a way to end suffering/stress.
4. The way to end suffering/stress is the Noble Eight Fold Path

The 4th step “unzips” to present eight steps, the Noble Eightfold Path.

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

This is what the Buddha said about his awakening from following the path.

"…I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth… becoming… clinging… craving… feeling… contact… the six sense media… name-&-form… consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.

“Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings.” — SN 12.65

He knew through direct knowledge that came from practice and understanding that he was fully awake and experiencing his last rebirth. He had a complete cessation of suffering/stress.

 

[Reuben_J]

Here is a bit more on the first discourse where the Buddha explains:

The discourses of the Buddha are similar to zip files. The passage refers to the Four Noble Truths.

1. There is suffering/stress.
2. There is a cause of suffering/stress.
3. There is a way to end suffering/stress.
4. The way to end suffering/stress is the Noble Eight Fold Path

The 4th step “unzips” to present eight steps, the Noble Eightfold Path.

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

This is what the Buddha said about his awakening from following the path.

He knew through direct knowledge that came from practice and understanding that he was fully awake and experiencing his last rebirth. He had a complete cessation of suffering/stress.

Is a complete cessation of suffering/stress a sign of enligthenment and last rebirth?

 

[notself]

Is a complete cessation of suffering/stress a sign of enligthenment and last rebirth?

Correct.

 

[rossum]

My question was how did he know it was the final birth?

How do you know that you have five fingers on each hand? You use direct perception. The enlightened Buddha also used direct perception. This was his final birth, his final life and eventually his final death.

What is the standard of enlightenment?

You will know it when you reach it.

I know and have seen what I was obscurely looking for. I don’t know what else remains, but I have now seen and have pierced through the surface and have got beyond the shadow and the disguise. …

– The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

rossum

 

[Reuben_J]

"Reuben J:

Is a complete cessation of suffering/stress a sign of enligthenment and last rebirth?

Correct.

Would you believe me if I tell you that I have experienced a complete cessation of suffering/stress in my life? Well, perhaps 98% of all the time, the balance may be attributed to the time that I may be unwittingly stressed, though if it does it will be not for long as I could always bring myself around when I realize it.

I believe this is not only through my own effort though I play a part by surrendering myself completely to God’s will. It is through the action of the Holy Spirit (God) that by His grace I was changed from my old self of suffering and stressful person to a new person of freedom from suffering/stress. It is through a process of repentance but the element of the extraordinary is obviously there as I even cannot believe that I have changed so much to allow me to have a completely new attitude toward life that brings about the transformation in me.

Can this phenomenon be explained from the perspect of Buddhism? Have I achieves ‘enlightenment’?

 

[Reuben_J]

How do you know that you have five fingers on each hand? You use direct perception. The enlightened Buddha also used direct perception. This was his final birth, his final life and eventually his final death.

He said it is the final birth. I was asking how did he know it was the final birth? How did he know that there is a rebirth at all? (I understand he experienced what he termed as the ‘enlightenment’ which is through perception).

You will know it when you reach it.

I like this. But thanks anyway.

 

[billcu1]

Would you believe me if I tell you that I have experienced a complete cessation of suffering/stress in my life? Well, perhaps 98% of all the time, the balance may be attributed to the time that I may be unwittingly stressed, though if it does it will be not for long as I could always bring myself around when I realize it.

I believe this is not only through my own effort though I play a part by surrendering myself completely to God’s will. It is through the action of the Holy Spirit (God) that by His grace I was changed from my old self of suffering and stressful person to a new person of freedom from suffering/stress. It is through a process of repentance but the element of the extraordinary is obviously there as I even cannot believe that I have changed so much to allow me to have a completely new attitude toward life that brings about the transformation in me.

Can this phenomenon be explained from the perspect of Buddhism? Have I achieves ‘enlightenment’?

Mahayanna emptiness meditation might help you. I have found Chritianity to be really lacking in helping to stop suffering in many ways. There is no responsibility there. Satan or the devil does everything well Mara in buddhism too in it’s eary form. Christianity has yet to progress to this state.
Someone says something that hurts you. You must examine yourself. Something like Ignatius of loyola’s Examen perhaps. What is it about me that is in confusion or misunderstanding that allows such hurt? Also all things are emptines of “inherent” existance. Your hurt is an ilusion and you see it as empty. You hurt because your not seeing things as they are, as empty.

 

[Reuben_J]

Mahayanna emptiness meditation might help you. I have found Chritianity to be really lacking in helping to stop suffering in many ways. There is no responsibility there. Satan or the devil does everything well Mara in buddhism too in it’s eary form. Christianity has yet to progress to this state.
Someone says something that hurts you. You must examine yourself. Something like Ignatius of loyola’s Examen perhaps. What is it about me that is in confusion or misunderstanding that allows such hurt? Also all things are emptines of “inherent” existance. Your hurt is an ilusion and you see it as empty. You hurt because your not seeing things as they are, as empty.

Hi. I think you have misread my post. I said I have experienced a cessation of suffering/stress in my life (mostly) (which I believe is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit). I am freed from such impediment. Not that am terribly holy but at least that one obstacle in my life I have overcome and it is not through my own effort but like a miracle I was changed (through the grace of God).

 

[billcu1]

Hi. I think you have misread my post. I said I have experienced a cessation of suffering/stress in my life (mostly) (which I believe is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit). I am freed from such impediment. Not that am terribly holy but at least that one obstacle in my life I have overcome and it is not through my own effort but like a miracle I was changed (through the grace of God).

Great. I certainly will not take anything away from that! A buddha being outside of time can if you do as they’ve said can intervene and pull you out too. Like Jesus said he’d do. And there is of course God that can do anything.

 

[rossum]

He said it is the final birth. I was asking how did he know it was the final birth?

Because he was enlightened. Because of this the Buddha knew a lot more than unenlightened men:

At one time the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in Simsapa Grove. Then the Blessed One, taking a few Simsapa leaves in his hand, said to the monks: “What do you think, monks? Which are the more numerous, the few leaves I have here in my hand, or those up in the trees of the grove?”

“Lord, the Blessed One is holding only a few leaves: those up in the trees are far more numerous.”

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little. And why, monks, have I not revealed it?

“Because, monks, it is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or Nibbana. That is why I have not revealed it.”

– Simsapa sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 56.31

How did he know that there is a rebirth at all?

That is something you can find out for yourself before enlightenment. The instructions for remembering your own previous lives are given in chapter thirteen of the Visuddhimagga.

rossum

 

[Reuben_J]

Because he was enlightened. Because of this the Buddha knew a lot more than unenlightened men:

At one time the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in Simsapa Grove. Then the Blessed One, taking a few Simsapa leaves in his hand, said to the monks: “What do you think, monks? Which are the more numerous, the few leaves I have here in my hand, or those up in the trees of the grove?”

“Lord, the Blessed One is holding only a few leaves: those up in the trees are far more numerous.”

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little. And why, monks, have I not revealed it?

“Because, monks, it is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or Nibbana. That is why I have not revealed it.”

– Simsapa sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 56.31

A post above this mentions that a sign of enlightenment is complete cessation of suffering/stress. I have come to a point that for the most part experiencing a cessation of suffering/stress; not of my own effort entirely but by the grace of God. In our jargon, it is by the power of the Holy Spirit but nevertheless achieving that level, an obstacle which I have overcome. Is it possible that I have achieved enlightenment? If so, do I now able to know things that those unenlightened do not know?

That is something you can find out for yourself before enlightenment. The instructions for remembering your own previous lives are given in chapter thirteen of the Visuddhimagga.

Another poster, not on this thread, mentioned that we would not be able to know about our previous birth (previous life). Is that belief in error?

 

[rossum]

Is it possible that I have achieved enlightenment?

Possible, but unlikely. Non-Buddhists can achieve it, but it takes many years. The Buddha took six years; others took longer.

There are religious experiences short of enlightenment that may appear to be like enlightenment to the untrained. That is why in any Buddhist monastic order, claims of enlightenment have to be verified by a teacher who is aware of the pitfalls:

Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it. He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

– Zen is Boring

Another poster, not on this thread, mentioned that we would not be able to know about our previous birth (previous life). Is that belief in error?

Remembering past lives requires a lot of training in the four jhanas, which are stages of meditation. As I said, Buddhaghosa gives the instructions in his Visuddhimagga. Memory of past lives is not generally possible for the untrained. Most people cannot even remember being born; until you have trained yourself to be able to do that, remembering past lives is moot.

rossum

 

[Reuben_J]

Possible, but unlikely. Non-Buddhists can achieve it, but it takes many years. The Buddha took six years; others took longer.

There are religious experiences short of enlightenment that may appear to be like enlightenment to the untrained. That is why in any Buddhist monastic order, claims of enlightenment have to be verified by a teacher who is aware of the pitfalls:

Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it. He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

– Zen is Boring

Remembering past lives requires a lot of training in the four jhanas, which are stages of meditation. As I said, Buddhaghosa gives the instructions in his Visuddhimagga. Memory of past lives is not generally possible for the untrained. Most people cannot even remember being born; until you have trained yourself to be able to do that, remembering past lives is moot.

rossum

Thank you for all the explanation. Have a nice day.

 

[Emese]

Another poster, not on this thread, mentioned that we would not be able to know about our previous birth (previous life). Is that belief in error?

It is possible to remember. I remember, and I’m not a buddhist I’m unaware of the meditation techniques Rossum 's refering to. I just remember. That’s one of the reasons that I believe in reincarnation, but I’ve always have anyway. I grew up catholic BTW and I’am still a catholic, but to me reincarnation is like a “fact of life”

I would say however, that I believe there’s a good reason for not remembering in general and also there was a good reason for me to remember those “previous” experiences that I do remember, so I’m not sure if there’s any purpose to learning meditation techniques or using hypnosis just for the sake of remembering. I’ve never tried these myself.

Rossum, what does Buddha say, why is he teaching how to remember past lifes and how can this knowledge be useful according to Him?

 

[aragonjohn1]

He was enlightened. He knew it. How did Jesus know that He was God?

All who are not enlightened get reborn? Only those can escape being reborn. Birth leads to old age, illness, suffering and death. If you want to avoid suffering and death, then you need to avoid being born. That means attaining
rossum

Before he became man. When He is both God and man when he first became aware, when Jesus spoke to his Father in heaven for the first time in prayer, sometime before one of the times Christ Jesus was in the temple, before his baptism, or at Jesus Christ’s baptism in the Jordan.

God bless